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Yacatecuhtli


Aug 27, 2011, 8:15 AM

Post #1 of 37 (2075 views)

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Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Mexico City – Violent crime has become a problem of national security in Mexico, where half of the territory is outside of state control and "we're in the hands of the narcos," an intelligence expert and author of a new book on Mexico's public safety woes, said.


Jorge Carrillo Olea, founder of Mexico's leading intelligence center, said the "state has lost territorial control, and therefore governability," over roughly 50 percent of the country.


The government has been incapable of fully enforcing the law and ensuring justice is upheld, said Carrillo, who spoke to Efe while in Mexico City to promote his new book, "Mexico en riesgo; una vision personal sobre un Estado a la defensive" (Mexico at Risk: A Personal Vision of a State on the Defensive), published this year by Grijalbo.

Read more: http://latino.foxnews.com/...exico/#ixzz1WF6DOhjV


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !



davidkrug

Aug 30, 2011, 11:44 AM

Post #2 of 37 (1880 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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I do not believe Mexican drug gangs control half of Mexico. Sure they have made a mess out of certain parts of Mexico.

But this issue really boils down to do Mexican Drug Gangs control the flow of drugs into the United States.

I believe the real problem lies in the North and not in the South, so called experts should really spend a few YEARS living, breathing, and experiencing Mexico before expressing their flawed opinions. Yes he's an intelligence expert. But how many intelligence experts have been known to be just that "experts" of their own chosing. If drug gangs controlled half of Mexico things would be far different in Mexico than they are today!

Retirement: World's longest coffee break. ~Author Unknown
Visit Me Online at: DavidKrug.org

(This post was edited by davidkrug on Aug 30, 2011, 11:54 AM)


Brian

Aug 30, 2011, 12:32 PM

Post #3 of 37 (1856 views)

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Re: [davidkrug] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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It looks like he has spent many years living, breathing and experiencing Mexico. You may not be impressed by his credentials but I certainly am:

http://es.wikipedia.org/.../Jorge_Carrillo_Olea


davidkrug

Aug 30, 2011, 1:14 PM

Post #4 of 37 (1838 views)

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Re: [Brian] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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No offense but Mexico's intelligence has been very impotent for years, intentionally.

Thus why they NEED outside help.

Retirement: World's longest coffee break. ~Author Unknown
Visit Me Online at: DavidKrug.org


Bennie García

Aug 30, 2011, 4:54 PM

Post #5 of 37 (1796 views)

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Re: [davidkrug] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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No offense but Mexico's intelligence has been very impotent for years, intentionally.

Thus why they NEED outside help.


Why don't you give an example to validate your opinion?

I came to the conclusion years ago that intelligence gathering capabilities are quite good. It is what they choose to do with the intelligence that makes one wonder.


davidkrug

Aug 30, 2011, 5:12 PM

Post #6 of 37 (1792 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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I obviously don't know all the details but one BIG sign is almost ALL the major drug kingpin busts are co-coordinated with US Law Enforcement.

Retirement: World's longest coffee break. ~Author Unknown
Visit Me Online at: DavidKrug.org


Rolly


Aug 30, 2011, 5:31 PM

Post #7 of 37 (1786 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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One of the things that puzzles me is how the gangs find and kill each other while the army/police seem much less adept at finding them.

Rolly Pirate


Bennie García

Aug 30, 2011, 6:00 PM

Post #8 of 37 (1771 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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One of the things that puzzles me is how the gangs find and kill each other while the army/police seem much less adept at finding them.


How many of the top dogs are found and killed by rivals? The small guys are much more visible and easy to find. Didn't take long to grab the Casino perps.


richmx2


Aug 30, 2011, 6:57 PM

Post #9 of 37 (1745 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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I'm wondering if those arsonists weren't "allowed" to be caught. No business organization can afford screw-ups that damage the brand identity, and that goes for criminal organizations as well. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if there is a prison uprising in a couple of months, and those guys end up dead.

As to U.S. intervention... if David Krug proposing the Afghanistan type intervention (which, incidentally, doubled the opium production), the Colombian type (which did, at the cost of human rights, drive out the narcos... north to Mexico, and north of Mexico is ???) or the Peruvian type (in which U.S. "contractors" managed to kill U.S. missionaries)?

As it is, the escalation in violence has only been during this present Administration, especially as the U.S. financial intervention (aka "Plan Merida" has pumped more U.S. resources into killing Mexicans and destroying civil rights here simply to keep the U.S. from having to honestly confront its own money laundering, narcotics habits and addiction to war.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


Bennie García

Aug 30, 2011, 7:58 PM

Post #10 of 37 (1731 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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In Reply To
I'm wondering if those arsonists weren't "allowed" to be caught.


This is where my cynicism differs. When something so terribly awful happens such as happened in Monterrey, the government immediately knows who to go after. Not because the Zetas or other bad guys give them up but because the government already knows who the bad guys are and can turn the screws when they want to. They have their ethics, don't you know, and can't let something like this slide.


In Reply To
No business organization can afford screw-ups that damage the brand identity, and that goes for criminal organizations as well. .


Oh please!! Yeah, the Zetas are worried about their "image". The only reason they get ticked off is if it causes a crackdown that harms them financially. These are the guys that hang dead people from highway overpasses with their narcomantas for the public's viewing pleasure.


richmx2


Aug 31, 2011, 12:59 AM

Post #11 of 37 (1700 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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These are the guys that hang dead people from highway overpasses with their narcomantas for the public's viewing pleasure.

Kind of a gruesome way to think of it, but those hanging bodies are often as not "inter-office memos"... a rather crude, but effective way of guaranteeing that the staff, investors and public are informed that the company policies. Their products are one thing -- selling drugs, or trafficking in humans, or pirating DVDs, or extorting casinos -- it's the Zeta brand name that makes them powerful. Not the crimes, but crimes carried out with impunity.

The arson might be considered "targeted advertising" for the casino extortion ... er... services. Killing upper-middle class and upper-class housewives wasn't part of the ad campaign. Not that I disagree that the powers-that-be didn't have a good idea of who actually committed arson, but that the Zetas seem as much as the state to have an interest in closing the matter quickly as possible, if only to get back to their regular business of uninvestigated murder and mayhem. The "intellectual author" is likely as not going to be at large for quite a while, if he isn't in an unmarked grave already.




http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


panama john

Aug 31, 2011, 7:00 AM

Post #12 of 37 (1649 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Absolutley right! You hit the nail right on the head.


YucaLandia


Sep 1, 2011, 10:52 AM

Post #13 of 37 (1532 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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"Mexico City – Violent crime has become a problem of national security in Mexico, where half of the territory is outside of state control and "we're in the hands of the narcos," an intelligence expert and author of a new book on Mexico's public safety woes, said. "

Do the reader's of this quote have any sense of how the "problem of national security in Mexico" compares to US sources of death?

In terms of relative risks: Mexico's drug war related deaths have been reported at 30,000 for the past 5 years. For Mexico's population of 125 million, this equates to 73,000 deaths for the US population of 305 million. How do these Drug War related deaths compare to typical avoidable deaths in the US?

Reported US driving accidents kill between 31,000 and 38,000 people a year. These 180,000 US deaths over 5 years, translate to 74,000 comparable US highway deaths for 125 million Mexicans vs the 30,000 Mexican drug war deaths during the period of Calderon's war with the Narco-Trafficantes - so, you are roughly 2.5X more likely to be killed while on the US roads vs. being killed in the Mexican Drug war while living in Mexico. (according to official US DOT figures and assuming roughly equal travel distances).

Research studies report that US Physician and Hospital errors unnecessarily kill 125,000 Americans per year. This translates to 625,00 unnecessary US deaths during the 5 year Drug War. If you ratio the Physician and Hospital death rate down to Mexico's population, you get 256,000 unnecessary US deaths vs 30,000 Mexican drug war deaths, or an 8.6X higher likelyhood of being killed by US Physician and Hospital error vs dying due to the drug war while living in Mexico.

The US homicide rate (according to CDC) is 18,361 per year, which translates to 92,000 US homicide deaths during the drug war, which ratios down to 38,000 homicide deaths for Mexico's population vs. only 30,000 actual drug war homicides in Mexico, which means you are 1.25X more likely to be murdered in the USA than from living in Mexico, due to the war on drugs...

So, if you're actually concerned about the real risks of traveling or living in Mexico, rational people would also want to stay off US roads, stay out of US doctors offices and hospitals, and not be in US cities. 5 years of data indicate that the US is a more risky place to live, when compared to the risks around Mexico's Drug War.

==================================

In case Canadians are feeling that travel to Mexico is unnecessarily risky:
Roughly 3,000 Canadians are killed in driving accidents per year, which translates to 15,000 Canadians killed during Mexico's drug war. Canada has 33.8 million people, which ratios the driving Canadian deaths up to 55,500 Canadian driving deaths vs. the 30,000 killed in Mexico's drug war per 125 million of population.

By ratio-ing Canada's traffic deaths up to match Mexico's population, shows 1.85X higher death rates from Canadian driving vs. deaths in Mexico's drug war.

So, the deaths in Mexico's drug war are shocking, but they are still less than common risks that Canadians and US citizens accept on a daily basis. It also seems rational to not want to hang around in New Orleans, Juarez, Detroit, Monterrey, New York City, Tijuana, Washington DC, or Nuevo Laredo, unless you happen to live there.

Hopefully, this helps put the real average risks into perspective.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Sep 1, 2011, 12:00 PM)


Brian

Sep 1, 2011, 12:58 PM

Post #14 of 37 (1504 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Are you able to draw similar comparisons for the instances of kidnapping and extortion in the referenced countries? I would venture that the average Mexican resident is probably far more concerned about falling victim to those types of crimes than actually being murdered. No serious discussion of security issues in Mexico can confine itself solely to those who have lost their lives.


Yacatecuhtli


Sep 1, 2011, 1:36 PM

Post #15 of 37 (1491 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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So what are the chances of being Canadian doctor with a Mexican spouse in a US plated car and being in an automobile accident in Mexico at a Narco reten and then being killed by the narcos and being dumped in a Narco Fosa with out your head?


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !

(This post was edited by Yacatecuhtli on Sep 1, 2011, 1:38 PM)


Bennie García

Sep 1, 2011, 1:45 PM

Post #16 of 37 (1486 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Didn't someone else try to use these types of asinine comparisons not to long ago?

What are the odds that someone playing keno in a Reno casino will be a victim of an extortionist/arsonist? If you want to present a logical argument then please do so. But the comparisons you are making are not in the least bit valid.


CanuckBob


Sep 1, 2011, 1:55 PM

Post #17 of 37 (1482 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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These are nice comparisons and a great example of how any numbers can be twisted to look favorable however the big difference here is:

- When you get behind the wheel of a car there is an inherent risk that we take on once we turn the key. We are all aware
of this and willing to take the risk. Yes you may get into an accident and killed.

- When you enter a nightclub or casino (or walking through a market, etc, etc) there shouldn't be any inherent risk that you
will get killed nor would it or should it be expected........

Bob
Inside Lakeside
http://www.insidelakeside.com


salto_jorge

Sep 1, 2011, 3:41 PM

Post #18 of 37 (1462 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Control, depends how you look at it and what you are looking at.
After awhile numbers do not mean anything, not everything is reported and if it is maybe no one writes it down or cares.

They have influence over the following not only in their country but neighboring countries:

· Corrupt police

· Corrupt politicians

· Corrupt Military

· Low income Youth and the unemployed/under-employed

PLUS
No respect for Life
Practice extortion
Express Kidnapping
Transport and Sell Drugs ( To North Americans and New Immigrants from Latin America ) in USA and Mexico.

Looks like someone manages/influences the population and it is not the government.



Clearly the case of the minority trying to take over the majority.





(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Sep 1, 2011, 3:59 PM)


YucaLandia


Sep 1, 2011, 6:12 PM

Post #19 of 37 (1426 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Yacatecuhtli's post makes it sound like the levels of risks of the drug war for Mexicans are somehow very different than the everyday risks that US and Canadian citizens choose to take in their home countries.

The realities are that you are far more likely to be harmed by unnecessary Physician or Hospital error than from ordinary life in Mexico. 30,000 deaths attributed to Mexico's drug war pales in comparison to the over 600,000 Americans killed by unnecessary medical errors over the same period, yet, Americans continue to trust their physicians and hospitals.

The perceptions vs. the actual risks seem to confirm some expats' observations that violent deaths and unnecessary deaths go mostly unnoticed in the USA, and that there's a lot of energy put into reporting the bad things that happen in Mexico, making it appear that Mexico is a more dangerous place than the USA. Unfortunately, both the USA and Mexico can have some dangers, just as driving a car or getting medical treatment can sometimes be inherently dangerous activities.

People can either make jokes or absurd comparisons (Canadian doctor w/Mexicana esposa visiting the USA made me laugh: Thanks!), or people can manage the risks with reasonable behavior. Choose your routes, where you stop, and travel times to avoid dangerous situations, whether they be avoiding Monterrey, Iowa ice-storms, or late night jaunts in New Orlean's rougher neighborhoods.

Fortunately, narco-retens are not a part of everyday life across Mexico.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Sep 1, 2011, 6:12 PM)


Bennie García

Sep 1, 2011, 7:08 PM

Post #20 of 37 (1400 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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In Reply To


The realities are that you are far more likely to be harmed by unnecessary Physician or Hospital error than from ordinary life in Mexico. 30,000 deaths attributed to Mexico's drug war pales in comparison to the over 600,000 Americans killed by unnecessary medical errors over the same period, yet, Americans continue to trust their physicians and hospitals.


I can't believe you are still coming up with such ridiculous comparisons in the attempt to make your point. How many people die in Mexico due to lack of proper medical care? How many industrial accidents kill workers because of negligence? How many traffic deaths per 100,000 miles driven in each country.

Here's a question for you. I have personally known around 25 murder victims in this country and nearly a dozen kidnap victims some of which are included in the murdered list. How many have you known in the US?


panama john

Sep 1, 2011, 8:27 PM

Post #21 of 37 (1377 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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I lived in Costa Rica for 15 years and personally knew 9 people murdered,no kidnappings, 5 of them Americans. I thought that was high, but 25 murder victims and a dozen kidnap victims is pretty serious business. I have never personally know anybody murdered in a crime in the USA.


Rolly


Sep 1, 2011, 9:02 PM

Post #22 of 37 (1371 views)

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Re: [panama john] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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In the 11 years I have lived in Lerdo, I have known one man who was tortured and killed in the drug war and two other friends murdered by street thugs, not drug gangs. I have four friends who have been robbed at gunpoint by street thugs -- one guy three times.

Rolly Pirate


YucaLandia


Sep 2, 2011, 6:00 AM

Post #23 of 37 (1338 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Hi Bennie,
I find it perverse that you think someone has to know people who have been murdered to be able to speak truth and quote valid facts. 3 people in Chicago, 4 in Washington DC, and the 12 students at Columbine High School. I personally had to clean the smeared blood from walls, floors and furniture of an apartment where a close friend's daughter had been bludgeoned to death by a small ball-pean hammer in the USA, so, yes, I have experienced some of the effects of violence first hand, and yes, I have had the blood of the innocent on my hands, cleaning up the messes caused by violence.

Both the USA and Mexico are violent places, where ordinary people risk violent death: The US homicide rate (according to CDC) is 18,361 per year, which translates to 92,000 US homicide deaths during the drug war, which ratios down to 38,000 US homicide deaths vs. only 30,000 drug war homicides in Mexico, per 125 million people for 5 years of the drug war.

Official Government reports show that you are 1.25X more likely to be murdered in the USA than from living in Mexico, due to the war on drugs.
steve
-
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Sep 2, 2011, 6:07 AM)


Bennie García

Sep 2, 2011, 1:37 PM

Post #24 of 37 (1262 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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I once considered you a credible and informed contributor to this forum. But your ridiculous manipulation or possibly even falsification of statistics makes me reconsider.

All legitimate statistics on crime will show the murder rate in Mexico is nearly 3 times that of the US. You need to show something concrete that refutes that before I'll accept your word on the matter.

And please don't run those moronic traffic death statistics again or at the least compare them to the traffic death stats for this country.


DavidMcL


Sep 2, 2011, 2:25 PM

Post #25 of 37 (1252 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Expert: Drug gangs control half of Mexico

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Please lets not go down the road of personal attacks.
David McL
WebJefe
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