Dual Citizenship - detached thread

Dual Citizenship - detached thread

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Exactly, Frito.

First, here's what the State Department has said in their Travel Warning for Mexico dated April 22, 2011: "Millions of U.S. citizens safely visit Mexico each year, including more than 150,000 who cross the border every day for study, tourism or business and at least one million U.S. citizens who live in Mexico."

To your point, Frito, a few months ago, I attended a meeting in Morelia conducted by the US Embassy. It was an outreach to "American Citizens" in the area. The majority of the audience looked Mexican, and much of the meeting was conducted in Spanish. Recall that many Mexicans hold dual citizenship, some children of Mexican parents who were born in the US have come back to Mexico to live, and many children of illegal immigrants who were born in the USA (and thus are American citizens), are now back in Mexico when their parents returned.

I think this helps explain how there could be a million US citizens in Mexico. I'm inclined to think the State Department probably has a pretty good handle on these numbers.

Jim

(This post was edited by DavidMcL on Jul 30, 2011, 11:29 PM)

Jul 30, 2011, 5:51 PM

Post #2 of 21 (3462 views)

Re: [jrpierce] A million gringos

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I'm more than a little puzzled by this commentary. Here's why: although it is legal to hold dual USA/Mexican citizenship, it is not legal to claim to be a US citizen in Mexico if you also hold Mexican citizenship. Even though I hold two passports, I am not entitled to consular services or any other benefits of American citizenship while in Mexico. In the same way, I am not allowed to claim Mexican citizenship if I am visiting the United States.

Here, I am a Mexican. There, I am an American. Punto.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

jrpierce

Jul 30, 2011, 6:07 PM

Post #3 of 21 (3458 views)

Re: [esperanza] A million gringos

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I don't know about that, Esperanza. Is that Mexican law, or US law, or both? As a dual citizen, are you still entitled, for example, to receive Social Security benefits? If so, I bet the State Department would consider you a US citizen residing in Mexico. Also, of course, though often ignored, all US and Mexican citizens are required to report their "world wide income" to the tax authorities of both countries.

My wife and I are dual citizens of Ireland. In reading about the State Department's attitude on dual citizenship, they made clear that if I used my Irish passport for travel, I would have no access to assistance from the State Department. However, I would still be a US citizen.

That may or may not explain it.

Jim

mazbook1

Jul 30, 2011, 7:09 PM

Post #4 of 21 (3440 views)

Re: [esperanza] A million gringos

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I think that Jim has the right answer, esperanza. It's not that it is not legal, it's just that you have no right to U.S. consular services when in México. It is a U.S. State Dept. thing, NOT a Mexican thing, as dual citizens such as yourself and myself DO have access to Mexican Consular service when in the U.S. At least that's my understanding.

I personally know dual citizens living in México that deliberately enter the country on their U.S. passport (and even get FM3s and FM2s) because of this, but the reality is that they ARE breaking Mexican law by doing so. However, as long as they don't get a Mexican passport, IFE card or request any Mexican government services, they probably would/will never be found out. That may come to a halt, though, when the all-new, different visa law goes into effect.

dongringo_catemaco

Jul 30, 2011, 9:41 PM

Post #5 of 21 (3412 views)

Re: [mazbook1] A million gringos

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Typical MexConnect.
Hijacking a single topic to go off on a tangent about something totally unrelated. How about throwing in some narco immigrant news to really fuddle the issue.
Visit Catemaco News

Jul 30, 2011, 10:06 PM

Post #6 of 21 (3402 views)

Re: [jrpierce] A million gringos

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It's a Mexican law. And it relates to what you posted about Mexican-Americans attending the meeting you attended, and it also relates to the distinct possibility that Mexican-Americans reported themselves as American citizens in the Mexican census. Technically, for that purpose, they are not. My point was that they are Mexicans while in Mexico.

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Jul 31, 2011, 6:31 AM

Post #7 of 21 (3367 views)

Re: [esperanza] A million gringos

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In Reply To

Mexican law has no say over what the US can offer its citizens. Consular services are available to all US citizens, whether they hold another citizenship or not. Where do you go to get your US passport?The US considers anyone holding a US passport an American citizen at all times. The same goes for Mexico. Where the Consulate will not be able to help you if you also have Mexican citizenship is if you run afoul of Mexican law. If you are Mexican and break the law in Mexico, you will be treated strictly as a Mexican citizen. The US will not intervene on your behalf.

Jul 31, 2011, 7:20 AM

Post #8 of 21 (3347 views)

Re: [Bennie García] A million gringos

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Bennie, I believe that you believe that. But when I received Mexican citizenship, the jurídico at SRE told me exactly what I have posted here. YMMV.

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Jul 31, 2011, 7:48 AM

Post #9 of 21 (3342 views)

Re: [esperanza] A million gringos

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In Reply To

Bennie, I believe that you believe that. But when I received Mexican citizenship, the jurídico at SRE told me exactly what I have posted here. YMMV.

Being a dual citizen for many years, I do have some experience in this matter. I also have 3 children that hold dual citizenship. They were all born before Mexico changed its law on this matter.

Both the US and Mexico allow their citizens to hold dual nationalities. But neither recognizes the other. In the eyes of the USA you are an American citizen. Period. Same goes for Mexico. They do not recognize the other citizenship. They just don't prohibit their citizens from holding it. I believe you were told to give up your US citizenship when you became a Mexican citizen. But the US didn't strip your US citizenship, did it? They didn't take mine when I did. Back then I wasn't supposed to hold a US passport so I used my birth certificate when flying to the US.

You say that as a Mexican citizen you cannot employ US Consular services. An obvious rebuttal to that claim is that you may acquire your US passport there. You can also use the American Citizens Services section etc. My kids were all born in Mexico before this country permitted someone to hold dual citizenship. Their births were registered at the US Consulate in Guadalajara, (another example of a dual citizen utilizing US Consular services).

The Mexican law at that time required them to relinquish one of their citizenships upon reaching the age of 18. US law did not. Even if they would have chosen their Mexican citizenship, the US would still have recognized them as US citizens. Fortunately the law was changed before any reached 18 and they didn't have to bother with that..

My oldest child is an attorney. She worked as an attorney for the SRE in the Mexican Consulate in Miami for 2 years.

So YMMV but I'll stick with my experience.

Jul 31, 2011, 10:09 AM

Post #10 of 21 (3308 views)

Re: [Bennie García] A million gringos

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According to US law, citizenship can only be renounced by following certain procedures which are listed on the USA Bureau of Consular Affairs web page. Read here: http://travel.state.gov/...citizenship_776.html

Mexico does in fact require that people who acquire Mexican citizenship 'relinquish' their US citizenship, but as you mentioned, the USA does not recognize that relinquishment as official. My point is that for purposes of living in Mexico, I am no longer considered to be a US citizen and in fact I am not allowed to represent myself as such while I am in the República. My wife was recently required to apply to INM for permission to marry me, precisely because I am not considered to be a US citizen. Had I been a US citizen, the getting-married process would have been substantially less time consuming.

On the other hand, the USA still considers me to be a US citizen. Hence I still receive SS benefits, still hold a US passport, and do not need a visa should I choose to enter the USA. I can renew my US passport at Mexico City's American embassy because the footprint of the embassy is considered to be a piece of the USA located on foreign soil.

Bennie, all of your points are well-taken and correct based on your lived experience. I'm just talking about my own experiences. The contradictions are typical of dealing with two governments--or for that matter, even ONE government.

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Jul 31, 2011, 10:46 AM

Post #11 of 21 (3297 views)

Re: [esperanza] A million gringos

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In Reply To

Bennie, all of your points are well-taken and correct based on your lived experience. I'm just talking about my own experiences. The contradictions are typical of dealing with two governments--or for that matter, even ONE government.

I am just pointing out that you are mistaken when you say you may not use the services of the American Embassy and Consulates while in Mexico.

Mexico cannot dictate to the US what services they may provide their citizens in the Embassy/Consulate. Whether they are solely US citizens or also hold Mexican citizenship.

Mexico also looks the other way when you present your US passport when you fly to the US.

Jul 31, 2011, 10:59 AM

Post #12 of 21 (3293 views)

Re: [Bennie García] A million gringos

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"Mexico also looks the other way when you present your US passport when you fly to the US."

But...my experience is that when I fly out of Mexico, I present my Mexican passport. When asked if I have a visa for the USA (and I am always asked), I show them the cover of my USA passport and say, "Entro allá con este." That's enough for them.

If I try to fly out on my US passport (and once by accident I did hand that one to the clerk), they always ask for my immigration paperwork--i.e., my FM-2 or -3, plus the exit permit. As a Mexican citizen, I don't have or need any of those papers.

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Jul 31, 2011, 11:05 AM

Post #13 of 21 (3288 views)

Re: [esperanza] A million gringos

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In Reply To

"Mexico also looks the other way when you present your US passport when you fly to the US."

But...my experience is that when I fly out of Mexico, I present my Mexican passport.

Yes, most people know that Mexican citizens need to show a Mexican passport when exiting the country by air.

In Reply To

When asked if I have a visa for the USA (and I am always asked), I show them the cover of my USA passport and say, "Entro allá con este." That's enough for them.

That's enough for them because it shows proof of valid entry. The person asking for your documentation understands this even without your explanation. But the point is you do identify yourself as a US citizen while on Mexican soil.

Phil in SLP

Aug 2, 2011, 7:46 AM

Post #14 of 21 (3169 views)

Re: [Bennie García] A million gringos

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Bennie and Esperanza are both right, and the question of dual citizenship is debated in nearly every country in the world. The laws are different, but one essential issue in the same where ever you are. When you pass through immigration, the officer will want to know if you are a citizen of that country. Period. At that point, he/she normally does not wish to know what other nationality you might have. If you are a citizen you walk on through; if not, you need a visa or your passport is stamped valid for entry for x number of days, or they just admit you. Some travelers get into trouble or are delayed by producing a foreign passport if they are citizens of the country they are entering. Our maid, who is Venezuelan, gets bawled out and humiliated every time she produces a US passport in the Caracas airport. This enrages the officers no end, causes complications, and it happens every day again and again. She has never renounced her Venezuelan citizenship, and that country still recognizes her as a citizen. If you have Mexican citizenship and take out a FMT, FM3, or FM2, you probably deserve to be thrown in jail. At that point the US consulate can presumably do little for you, but it will be a good life lesson.

sioux4noff

Aug 2, 2011, 8:12 AM

Post #15 of 21 (3158 views)

Re: [Phil in SLP] A million gringos

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Quote

Our maid, who is Venezuelan, gets bawled out and humiliated every time she produces a US passport in the Caracas airport. This enrages the officers no end, causes complications, and it happens every day again and again.

Why would she do that more than once?

Phil in SLP

Aug 2, 2011, 9:16 AM

Post #16 of 21 (3132 views)

Re: [sioux4noff] A million gringos

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I should have been clearer. Other Venezuelan/US citizens do what the maid does, and so make the immigration offers continually frustrated. Still, it is true that she has arrived in Caracas, used her US passport, and been shouted at on more than one occasion. She probably didn't want the expense of two passports.

sioux4noff

Aug 2, 2011, 3:46 PM

Post #17 of 21 (3066 views)

Re: [Phil in SLP] A million gringos

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I see. She doesn't have an Argentine passport. Now it makes sense.

bournemouth

Aug 2, 2011, 4:00 PM

Post #18 of 21 (3060 views)

Re: [sioux4noff] A million gringos

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Argentine?

sioux4noff

Aug 2, 2011, 4:09 PM

Post #19 of 21 (3058 views)

Re: [bournemouth] A million gringos

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Oops, I should have said Venezuelan. But I'll bet ya pesos to peppers she doesn't have an Argentine passport, either!

bournemouth

Aug 2, 2011, 6:11 PM

Post #20 of 21 (3036 views)

Re: [sioux4noff] A million gringos

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I think you're right!

Phil in SLP

Aug 3, 2011, 3:55 AM

Post #21 of 21 (2990 views)