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robt65

Jul 8, 2011, 12:50 AM

Post #1 of 29 (2658 views)

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How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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I feel this may have some long standing ramifications for some of us who are retired here. What are some of your thoughts about this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...%7Csec3_lnk1%7C76461

robt65

Bennie García

Jul 8, 2011, 6:20 AM

Post #2 of 29 (2610 views)

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Re: [robt65] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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I've lived in this country for nearly 40 years. They have executed Mexicans citizens numerous times in that period. Ain't nothing gonna happen. Why should it?

chinagringo

Jul 8, 2011, 7:33 AM

Post #3 of 29 (2581 views)

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Re: [robt65] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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As Bennie pointed out, this isn't the first instance of a Mexican National being executed. I believe the last time was in 2008, also in Texas, a State that prides itself in being the US leader in executions.

The US screams bloody murder when one of it's citizens is detained in Mexico or any other foreign country without timely contact with Consular Officials. The crux of this matter is that the US is a signatory to the Vienna Convention and should abide by the terms of treaties that they sign. From what I have read about this case, I would doubt that had Leal been allowed contact by the Mexican Consulate it probably would not have changed the outcome. But the US or the State of Texas has no right to circumvent their obligations!

Since Mexico doesn't have the death penalty, it would be impossible for them to give the US an "eye for an eye" retaliatory message but it often takes something such as that to give a message. Look at the Cross Border Trucking Agreement that was just signed 11 years late. It took Mexico providing a harsh message with retaliatory tariffs to finally get that issue off of dead center.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Reefhound

Jul 8, 2011, 8:14 AM

Post #4 of 29 (2554 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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He was not "refused access" to his consulate as so often claimed. He did not ask for consulate access and the state did not pro-actively offer him access. One key question that I've not seen addressed is whether the police knew he was not a citizen since he had been living in this country since he was 2, spoke fluent English, and so many police departments have been shied into not "profiling" or asking immigration status. Furthermore, he was represented by a lawyer who also did not request consular access.

joaquinx

Jul 8, 2011, 9:58 AM

Post #5 of 29 (2501 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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. . .had been denied their right to legal help from the Mexican consulate. . . .

Since 1994, his conviction, the Mexican consulate nor the Mexican government came to his aid. His lawyer didn't even know that he was born in Mexico. Perhaps he thought that being caught illegally in the US was a worse crime than murder, so he kept that fact to himself. In over 16 years, someone should have mentioned this treaty, yet they waited to the last minute.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

(This post was edited by joaquinx on Jul 8, 2011, 9:59 AM)

whynotwrite

Jul 8, 2011, 10:48 AM

Post #6 of 29 (2480 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Texas knew about this treaty, they had executed another Mexican national years earlier. For at least the second time Texas has ignored this International Treaty only because they can. It is doubtful a public defender or the guy new about this treaty and it is also doubtful, if he had contacted the Mexican Embassy, it would have saved his life.
The problem is the "Don´t Mess with Texas" Judge Roy Bean mentality. Screw International Treaties, this is Texas ya´ll

joaquinx

Jul 8, 2011, 10:53 AM

Post #7 of 29 (2475 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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. . . they had executed another Mexican national years earlier.

That man stated that he was born in the US. It was only much later that he claimed that he was born in Mexico.

Being from Texas, I am familiar with the "let's give 'em a fair trail then hang 'em". It's a wonder that they don't sell tickets.

Only by racial profiling do we know to ask if the suspect was born in Mexico.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

(This post was edited by joaquinx on Jul 8, 2011, 10:56 AM)

whynotwrite

Jul 8, 2011, 11:18 AM

Post #8 of 29 (2460 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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dated August 6, 2008.
http://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.com/...ppeal-denied-in.html
Isn´t knowing the personal facts of a person, especially in a death penalty case, something a States Attorney´s office and a public defender would investigate? Mother´s name, father´s name, place of birth, schools attended, etc..would not be investigated in a felony?

Edited for live link.

(This post was edited by esperanza on Jul 8, 2011, 1:00 PM)

Reefhound

Jul 8, 2011, 1:13 PM

Post #9 of 29 (2430 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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The only thing the state prosecutors need to investigate is "did he do it, how did he do it, can we prove it".

richmx2

Jul 8, 2011, 2:21 PM

Post #10 of 29 (2405 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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"Why should it"?

Whether it should or shouldn't ... it will, just not in ways we see. Not like last time, when Prez Fox went on national TV to cancel a planned meeting with Rick Perry. At most, right now, maybe Calderon will tell Perry to butt out the next time he brings up that guy who went missing in Falcon Lake or some Texan comes to grief trying to sell arms or buy narcotics here.

I don't think the official reaction will go much beyond a couple of stiffly worded notes from the diplomatic corps, and an increased sense that gringos in general (and Texans in particular) are barbarians. Not that there are going to be "No Texans served" signs in the restaurants, but there will be repercussions.

It's probably nothing that can be measured, one of those things like "good will" on a corporate balance sheet. In a country where intellectuals and Bishops have a lot more pull on the actions of political and economic decision-markets than some other places, the sense of the U.S. government as unable or unwilling to live up to its ideals (and treaty obligations) is gonna affect relations.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

DavidHF

Jul 8, 2011, 2:22 PM

Post #11 of 29 (2404 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Texas has flouted International Law before and they'll do it again. Texas also denied a request by POTUS to hold off. They thumbed their nose at him. Their arrogance is appalling.

Reefhound

Jul 8, 2011, 5:03 PM

Post #12 of 29 (2367 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Texas has flouted International Law before and they'll do it again. Texas also denied a request by POTUS to hold off. They thumbed their nose at him. Their arrogance is appalling.

Obama has been screwing Texas in every way possible since 2008, from relocating military factories from Sealy to Milwaukee, to denying Houston/NASA a retired shuttle and giving it to NYC (with no ties to the space industry). Did he really think he would be received well?

Reefhound

Jul 8, 2011, 5:07 PM

Post #13 of 29 (2365 views)

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Re: [richmx2] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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I don't think the official reaction will go much beyond a couple of stiffly worded notes from the diplomatic corps, and an increased sense that gringos in general (and Texans in particular) are barbarians.

If the execution after 17 years of a admitted rapist and murderer makes Texans look like barbarians in the eyes of Mexicans, how do you think the thousand of chopped up bodies and heads thrown on the streets makes Mexicans look in the eyes of Texans?

chinagringo

Jul 8, 2011, 5:10 PM

Post #14 of 29 (2362 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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This isn't about the "rogue State of Texas" doing whatever they damned well please. It is about the United States following the terms of the Vienna Convention of which they are a signatory!

Maybe the US should deed the State of Texas back to Mexico and then watch for the citizens reactions to being a part of a whole different culture and Government?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

richmx2

Jul 8, 2011, 5:46 PM

Post #15 of 29 (2347 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Thousands have been killed during this administration's "war on (some)drugs (bought and consumed in the United States)" and many heads have been chopped off, but whether the head chopping mounts into the "thousands" is debatable. dAt any rate, that's considered a criminal act, and seen as barbaric. Criminals commit barbaric acts. The state of Texas commits barbaric acts. Therefore, the state of Texas is...

Whether the logic is right or wrong, this is what people will conclude.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

Donald

Jul 8, 2011, 7:42 PM

Post #16 of 29 (2310 views)

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Re: [robt65] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/11-5001.pdf

Here is the supreme court decision. If I am reading it correctly, some outfit called the "International Court of Justice" ruled in 2004 that the Vienna Convention (of 1963) requires the consulate of foreign nationals to be notified in such cases.

By 2004, Humberto Leal had long since been tried and convicted. Too late now, it seems to me, to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Reefhound

Jul 8, 2011, 8:29 PM

Post #17 of 29 (2299 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Before you revel too much in the all popular Texas bashing, you should note that it was the US Supreme Court (none of whom have ties to Texas) that reaffirmed their 2008 ruling that this "treaty" is not binding on states and gave Texas the go-ahead.

If the situation were completely reversed, if an American who had lived in Mexico his whole life, committed heinous crimes, did not id himself as American to police or request consular advice, got convicted and sentenced, then tried to get out of it by later claiming this crap, every single one of you would be defending Mexico and saying he asked for it and had his chance.

Reefhound

Jul 8, 2011, 8:32 PM

Post #18 of 29 (2298 views)

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Re: [richmx2] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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And the Mexican military allegedly (by it's own citizens no less) commits a hundred times more barbaric acts, therefore Mexico is...

Whether the logic is right or wrong, this is what people will conclude.

chinagringo

Jul 9, 2011, 7:25 AM

Post #19 of 29 (2231 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Then again, the 5 to 4 decision had nothing to do with the political leanings of the Justices! If you or I were to be arrested for a felony, chances are that the authorities would know virtually every detail of our lives within the first 48 hours.

This is still about the United States complying with the terms of the Vienna Convention, a treaty that they signed. Mexico is upset and they have a right to be. Far too many mistakes were made and accepting responsibility is part of the drill!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

richmx2

Jul 9, 2011, 8:31 AM

Post #20 of 29 (2196 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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And the Mexican military allegedly (by it's own citizens no less) commits a hundred times more barbaric acts, therefore Mexico is...

Whether the logic is right or wrong, this is what people will conclude.

I don't disagree that people in the U.S. will use that argument (you just did... though it probably took more work to come up with than the one I already hear here), but I read the question as to the impact on Mexico, and Mexican reaction.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

cbviajero

Jul 9, 2011, 10:19 AM

Post #21 of 29 (2170 views)

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Re: [robt65] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Let's not forget what this sorry excuse for a human being did, he raped and murdered a young girl, eff him!!! and for the mex guv to complain what a joke,their justice system is a complete and utter failure ask any mexican citizen.Moral to the story if you're going to rape and murder little girls don't do it in Texas.
Chris

Donald

Jul 9, 2011, 11:51 AM

Post #22 of 29 (2137 views)

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Re: [robt65] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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My opinion as to ramifications regarding US retirees in Mexico. I think...not so much. The ATF gunrunning operation, to my mind, is a much bigger deal. Though both fall into the category of "stuff the government big-shots do that regular folks can only read about in the newspaper and shake their heads".
The original poster asked, in a general way, for thoughts on the matter, so I will take the opportunity. (A brief summary of events is needed for the sake of context.)
First, taking a look at the 1963 Vienna Convention (signed by the US in 1969) that seems to lie at the heart of things--Article 36(b) reads in full--"if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner. Any communication addressed to the consular post by the person arrested, in prison, custody or detention shall be forwarded by the said authorities without delay. The said authorities shall inform the person concerned without delay of his rights under this subparagraph"

After what appears to have been a 41-year period of dormancy, the International Court of Justice ruled in the 2004 Avena decision that, in light of the forgoing provision, about 50 Mexican nationals condemned to death in the US had been deprived of their right to a fair trial and their convictions should be set aside (presumably they should all be re-tried). Subsequently, however, the 2008 Medellin decision of the US Supreme Court (6-3) held that the ICJ ruling, absent an Act of Congress, was not binding upon the states. Last week's appeal seems to have been a desperate attempt at a "do over" of Medellin.

Now, my thoughts--well, a question, really, that perhaps we could ask the Belgians (ICJ) to sort out for us. Since, under 36(b), consular posts must be notified of any foreign national "arrested or committed to prision or...detained in any other manner", strict adherance to this rule would require, would it not, that citizenship be determined for each and every person so much as detained (not only in the US, but in any of the 173 signatory countries), in order to make darned sure he is not a foreign national and his rights not being violated?

In other words, Arizona SB 1070 doesn't go nearly far enough, does it, to protect the rights of foreign nationals? It seems to me to require, in plain language, that all persons detained almost anywhere in the world ("reasonable suspicion" of status notwithstanding) be investigated as to immigration matters, on the off chance that some consulate or another requires notification.

robt65

Jul 9, 2011, 11:57 AM

Post #23 of 29 (2127 views)

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Re: [Donald] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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A very interesting and thought provoking response, . . . . . one that certainly has merit on several points.

robt65

maylane

Jul 10, 2011, 2:21 PM

Post #24 of 29 (1957 views)

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He was executed for being a murderer...not because he was Mexican.
Nothing is going to happen

robt65

Jul 10, 2011, 2:36 PM

Post #25 of 29 (1947 views)

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Re: [maylane] How Big Will This Playout & What Will Some of the Ramifications Be?

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Hello Maylane,

Your observation is pretty clear from the beginning of my post. I am well aware of the reasons for his execution, I think we all are, that's really not difficult to understand. I also know a lot of my Mexican neighbors have said good riddance to bad garbage. The effects of not complying with the 1963 Vienna Convention; that is the important part of this story. It can and probably will have some ramifications economically, and / or politically that at this point remain unknown; but you can almost rest assured there will be some. How (as to in what manner) Ex Pats may feel such ramifications, it seems a little early to know at this stage of the political game.

robt65

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