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salto_jorge

Jul 4, 2011, 12:16 PM

Post #1 of 38 (4289 views)

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BorderlandBeat Article

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I do not know if this article: "I feel this story should be heard." is true or not.

If its true, the security guards and company were just for show and to open/close the gate.

Has anyone heard of these kinds of thing taking place, of the police not doing anything at all.


(This post was edited by salto_jorge on Jul 4, 2011, 12:18 PM)



mexliving

Jul 5, 2011, 12:52 AM

Post #2 of 38 (4173 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] BorderlandBeat Article

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i read the story and feel that it happened..... it should be legal to have a gun in your home...


Axixic


Jul 5, 2011, 3:19 AM

Post #3 of 38 (4165 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] BorderlandBeat Article

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If they have lived full time in Mexico for 6 years, why didn't they have at least one cell phone if there wasn't a land line in the house?

In over 6 years in Mexico I've never met Mexicans who have so little compassion that they would treated foreigners this way.

It was a gated community and they didn't have any neighbors who would help them if the security guard was so uninterested? Something about this story doesn't ring true.


whynotwrite

Jul 5, 2011, 5:34 AM

Post #4 of 38 (4139 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] BorderlandBeat Article

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Posting a story that no one knows if it is true, seems a bit questionable. Why spread what at this point is rumor? . Consider the source of your information. .. Read the comments and get a feel of the type of people this rag targets. .


Axixic


Jul 5, 2011, 6:52 AM

Post #5 of 38 (4108 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] BorderlandBeat Article

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Posting a story that no one knows if it is true, seems a bit questionable. Why spread what at this point is rumor? . Consider the source of your information. .. Read the comments and get a feel of the type of people this rag targets. .


It's meant to spread more hatred of Mexico. The whole story doesn't make any sense or there is something so nasty about these people that everyone was glad to be rid of them. It's similar to the story about the Canadians who claimed about police mistreatment in Cancun, who claimed the woman was raped and their money stolen by the police. The only truth to it was they were in Cancun and they were arrested.

I don't think this couple was in Mexico at all but if they were and this did happen, there is something very untouchable about them. Nothing they report makes any sense. Didn't go to the closest neighbor's for help, didn't call an ambulance, didn't have any type of phone, that a hospital turned them away because she said she had been raped is ridiculous. If her husband had a head injury and stab wound why didn't they stay and have his wounds treated? Her rape, if true, could be treated elsewhere later. For some reason there is something about them that repulses people or it's all lies.


Reefhound


Jul 5, 2011, 7:23 AM

Post #6 of 38 (4097 views)

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Re: [Axixic] BorderlandBeat Article

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I haven't seen any more evidence that these people are repulsive or the story is false than I've seen that these people are true victims and the story is real. Are those that are so quick to disbelieve and discredit the story acting any different than those who are quick to rally behind it and indict Mexico for it? I wish there was an investigatory news source that would take these kinds of stories and dig deeper. BB should have (if they didn't) collaborated some of the facts before publishing.


Gringal

Jul 5, 2011, 7:27 AM

Post #7 of 38 (4092 views)

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The trouble with the story is that we can't find out if it's truth or fabrication. Without evidence, we can't judge the people, the story or the villains.

There seems to be a deluge of stories coming out of the U.S. press about the dangers of Mexico.
The economy of Puerta Vallarta is being hit by the cancelling of cruise line stops at their port. Other vacation destinations are suffering the same fate. What's behind all this negative press? Wish I knew, but "follow the money" might be a good place to start, as in "scare hell out of U.S. residents so they'll spend their money at home"??


Reefhound


Jul 5, 2011, 7:59 AM

Post #8 of 38 (4075 views)

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Re: [Gringal] BorderlandBeat Article

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Went back and looked at it again, BB says they corroborated certain facts but they need to do more than that, I think, before running such an explosively charged story. They need to tell us what facts were verified and how.

I doubt the media is part of a USA govt plot to keep the money at home. The US pi$$es away more money every day than this would save in a year. Besides, most of the package tourist destinations are booming. I just got back Sunday from a week in Cozumel and our hotel was 100% occupied and the planes were full.

(Speaking of the hotel, here's something I found amusing. I was sitting in the lobby using wifi when your typical "ugly American" walked in. Or maybe he was German. He spoke English. He got the last room but was very upset because it was room number 13. No number 13, he insisted. The desk persons couldn't understand the fuss and promised the room was a good one in a good location and offered to show him. He went on and on, begrudgingly accepting the room on the condition he was moved to a new room in the morning. Is there a #13 superstition in Mexico?)


chinagringo


Jul 5, 2011, 8:03 AM

Post #9 of 38 (4069 views)

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Re: [Axixic] BorderlandBeat Article

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At the very beginning of the article, there is the following statement:
"We have independently corroborated certain facts in the letter and believe the contents to be true."

I am not saying that Borderland Beat wasn't scammed in this case but there is also no evidence to the contrary. For those that make inference that Borderland Beat is simply part of that large media conspiracy, I beg to differ.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



morgaine7


Jul 5, 2011, 8:44 AM

Post #10 of 38 (4043 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] BorderlandBeat Article

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I returned on Saturday from a two-week visit to the US. My flight from Charlotte, NC to Los Cabos was full (as in not one empty seat) of folks heading down for resort holidays, birthday and anniversary celebrations, and the like. I chatted with a number of fellow passengers, and not a single one mentioned safety.

Kate


esperanza

Jul 5, 2011, 8:55 AM

Post #11 of 38 (4032 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] BorderlandBeat Article

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Which of us has not heard a car alarm going off at any time of day or night? Which of us has run out to investigate that alarm? Car alarms are generally considered to be a nuisance, not an emergency.

Generally in Mexico a 'security guard' at the entrance to a gated community is there for one purpose: to admit people and vehicles or to disallow access to the community. They're not police, for heavens' sake. They're doormen.

I have a big problem with the folks who post 'blame the victim' answers to what might be a genuine report of serious trouble and what might not be. Either way, the situation would not be the fault of the victims and should not be construed to be.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









whynotwrite

Jul 5, 2011, 9:06 AM

Post #12 of 38 (4022 views)

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Re: [Gringal] BorderlandBeat Article

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 If you even try to do some investigating of the web site you will get nowhere. The people in charge are basically anonymous. That is the first red flag. Second try checking out the sponsors or advertisers. You can not follow the money, except in one case. Anonymous donors ... another red flag. What is the big secret??.
The best yet is their own disclaimer " How" and this is a quote.
"Most of the information and content is derived from open source media, unconfirmed individual sources and personal view point of author. Most content is for information purposes only and is not from direct official sources and in most cases not confirmed"
After doing this little bit of research and finding these facts I wonder why anyone would use this web page as any type of source.


jrpierce


Jul 5, 2011, 9:31 AM

Post #13 of 38 (4007 views)

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Re: [Axixic] BorderlandBeat Article

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If they have lived full time in Mexico for 6 years, why didn't they have at least one cell phone if there wasn't a land line in the house?

In over 6 years in Mexico I've never met Mexicans who have so little compassion that they would treated foreigners this way.


It was a gated community and they didn't have any neighbors who would help them if the security guard was so uninterested? Something about this story doesn't ring true.


Axixic, I share your questions about this story. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but like you, it flies in the face of my own experiences with Mexico and Mexicans. I have trouble taking this too seriously when it is posted anonymously, and when even the group posting it says it has only verified SOME aspects of the story. If this is legit, I wonder why it wouldn't have been reported to mainstream media. They say something about protecting their neighbors and the area, but IMO airing the truth would better protect the neighbors, and if the area or that complex is truly dangerous, people should be warned away.

Even if this story is true, I see no reason to conclude that this speaks in any general way about life in Mexico. A couple of years ago, there was huge media attention about the home invasion robbery of a doctor and his family in Connecticut, in which the bad guys beat the husband with a baseball bat, killed the mother, raped one of the daughters, and torched the house killing the two daughters. The badly beaten husband managed to crawl away from the fire and survived. Naturally, no one argued it was time for everyone to move out of Connecticut or the US. Sadly, bad stuff happens all over the world.

Jim



chinagringo


Jul 5, 2011, 9:31 AM

Post #14 of 38 (4006 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] BorderlandBeat Article

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"After doing this little bit of research and finding these facts I wonder why anyone would use this web page as any type of source."

One can make the choice to live in denial and use most any excuse to choose not to believe most any source of information. On the other hand, one can view information provided on Borderland Beat and do their own due diligence to either confirm or disprove the stories provided. I choose to follow this path when reading articles on BB and well over 60 to 70% of the time, I can find additional confirmation.

I can think of one recent article about the possible killing of Los Zetas leader Lazcano where they made it quite evident that the information was unconfirmed:

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/...zcano-killed-in.html

As it turned out, the story appeared to be false.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Brian

Jul 5, 2011, 9:45 AM

Post #15 of 38 (3995 views)

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Re: [esperanza] BorderlandBeat Article

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Car alarms, as Alex from TJ once remarked, are useful because it means that your car is still there :-)


esperanza

Jul 5, 2011, 10:33 AM

Post #16 of 38 (3964 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] BorderlandBeat Article

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Whynotwrite, the 'people in charge' choose to be anonymous because of the constant threat of assassination to named journalists in Mexico. Google it, you'll be shocked to see how many have been killed just over the last four and a half years.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Reefhound


Jul 5, 2011, 10:57 AM

Post #17 of 38 (3955 views)

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Re: [jrpierce] BorderlandBeat Article

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Even if this story is true, I see no reason to conclude that this speaks in any general way about life in Mexico. A couple of years ago, there was huge media attention about the home invasion robbery of a doctor and his family in Connecticut, in which the bad guys beat the husband with a baseball bat, killed the mother, raped one of the daughters, and torched the house killing the two daughters. The badly beaten husband managed to crawl away from the fire and survived. Naturally, no one argued it was time for everyone to move out of Connecticut or the US. Sadly, bad stuff happens all over the world.

Jim


I am not going to base any judgments on this story until much more confirmation, but if true it does indeed speak to general life in that part in Mexico because the kind of cold hearted apathy decribed was systemic across many different individuals and institutions, not just a few bad apples.

As for the Connecticut story, it's true that bad people are everywhere and bad things can happen anywhere but that is not what I find the most appalling part of this story. It's what happened afterward, the cold hearted apathy and inhumane indifference that I find most disturbing. Was that also the case with the Connecticut story?

Now I have seen apathy in the US over the years as well. A few years back I think a woman died on the ER waiting room floor in CA, stepped over by cops and nurses, because she was a known hypochondriac and they thought she was drunk. And there was a woman gang raped in a NYC park in front of dozens who did not help or even call for help. Lots of such stories where a victim of rape/robbery/assault was ignored by witnesses. But we know about them because they got reported and the victims ultimately found support not derision. The public tends to rally behind victims and turn on them if it turns out to be a hoax.


whynotwrite

Jul 5, 2011, 12:34 PM

Post #18 of 38 (3925 views)

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Re: [esperanza] BorderlandBeat Article

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You might be shocked but I read the news so I know there have been many Mexican journalists murdered in Mexico. What makes you think that these so called "journalists" of Borderland are even in Mexico or live on the border of Mexico? There is no indication anywhere of their whereabouts. Part of being anonymous. Unlike the true Mexican journalist.
What kind of journalistic publication would admit to not fact checking stories? Sort of like forums, I guess. But with a forum, just by the understanding of the word, a person needs to confirm everything that he is told. The format of Borderland confuses many people, them thinking it is a news organisation but in fact it is nothing like a that. If you no not take the time to separate fact from fiction, it is nothing more than hearsay ...which they pretty much admit to doing.


wendy devlin

Jul 5, 2011, 4:39 PM

Post #19 of 38 (3882 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] BorderlandBeat Article

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 Rob the owner/moderator of a Zihuatanejo forum for over the past ten years, verifies the couple's story is true on his board. http://www.zihuatanejo.net/.../messages/15260.html

However when I went back about five pages on the forum to postings made around May 9th and later, could find NO postings relevant to the couple's story or aftermath.

Not to say that the incident didn't happen but perhaps the community closed ranks, supporting this couple during the experience but also protecting their own/community's interests.

The closing ranks phenomena is a common reaction to these kinds of events. In my family's experience.


(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Jul 5, 2011, 5:03 PM)


Axixic


Jul 5, 2011, 6:22 PM

Post #20 of 38 (3843 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] BorderlandBeat Article

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Protecting the ranks, or reporting a story they heard or dropped it because it was they figured out it was BS.

Borderland Beat as far as I can tell originates in the U.S. so I doubt they are concerned about retaliation.

Like I wrote before, it doesn't make sense. No phones in the house and no cell phones? Anyone who has lived here awhile, as these people claim they have, has at least one cell phone. Notice they forgot that because it might have interrupted the story with logic. They didn't write that the phone line was cut or the cell phone had a dead battery.

What would normal people do if attacked in their homes? They go to the closest neighbor's. These people write that they expected neighbors to respond to their car alarm but didn't run to a neighbor's for help. Weird isn't it?

They asked the security guard at the gate to call a cab, not an ambulance or the police. Another really odd reaction. Why didn't they call the police? Isn't that what most Northerners would automatically do?

Hospitals refused to treat them. That certainly doesn't make sense. If they have the money, the hospital treats them.

Sounds more like the people who invaded their home, if that is true, wanted something of theirs that they thought this couple had. That is why they didn't want neighbors or the police involved.

If they moved out of Mexico why not now reveal their names unless they were involved in some illegal activity and they don't want that revealed.

Yes, I'm not Pollyanna.or naive. When I read something that doesn't add up I'm not going to read facts into that aren't there, so it will meet my idea of what I want or think should have happened. This story has too many holes in it to be true or it's missing what really happened and why.


richmx2


Jul 5, 2011, 11:02 PM

Post #21 of 38 (3791 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] BorderlandBeat Article

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Wendy... I don't see anything on those posts that suggest the story is true... only that these people say it could happen. I'm not naïve, and terrible things do happen to people for inexplicable reasons. But there are a lot of holes in this story, too many for any reputable media outlet to run with... no way of confirming even the smallest detail (was there even a break-in? When?) that no one is even able to say they'd heard something about.

Dubious at best.


http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com


Axixic


Jul 6, 2011, 2:37 AM

Post #22 of 38 (3779 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] BorderlandBeat Article

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At the very beginning of the article, there is the following statement:
"We have independently corroborated certain facts in the letter and believe the contents to be true."

I am not saying that Borderland Beat wasn't scammed in this case but there is also no evidence to the contrary. For those that make inference that Borderland Beat is simply part of that large media conspiracy, I beg to differ.


Borderland Beat:
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2009/04/about.html

"Most of the information and content is derived from open source media, unconfirmed individual sources and personal view point of author. Most content is for information purposes only and is not from direct official sources and in most cases not confirmed. Some content is graphic and discrestion is advised."

This blog is interesting but the facts in articles are vetted less than in the National Inquirer. I've Googled this story and it's found on BB, the local blog already listed and the letter was posted on Craig's list. No where is there any information about it.

Obviously it didn't happen. That's fine, but what is scary is how many people want to believe it.


(This post was edited by Axixic on Jul 6, 2011, 2:40 AM)


jrpierce


Jul 6, 2011, 10:48 AM

Post #23 of 38 (3653 views)

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Re: [Axixic] BorderlandBeat Article

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Axixic:

Actually, after reviewing the post on the Zihua board that Wendy linked, I felt that something happened, but that it was hushed up. I say something happened because, of course, the implications of the incident are in the details, and those have not been verified other than what was asserted in the original report. Whether it was hushed up due to the victims' fear, or to keep the area from feeling adverse PR impact, is not clear to me.

I've got to say that censorship is censorship, and if this incident did happen, it seems to me it should have been made public. I have despaired about times when there is a focus on some of the boards about violence to the exclusion of everything else, and when people overgeneralize an incident to suggest the sky is falling, or that Mexico is falling apart, or that foreign tourists or residents are in grave danger when they aren't. However, when a crime occurs, it seems to me it is relevant news and should be reported.

BTW, Axixic, we both missed something in the original letter on Borderland Beat. The letter says the bad guys took their cell phone, so in fact it sounds like the victims did have a phone that was stolen from them.

Jim


Axixic


Jul 6, 2011, 6:54 PM

Post #24 of 38 (3572 views)

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Re: [jrpierce] BorderlandBeat Article

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I read the blog and couldn't find any reference to first hand knowledge of the people or the incident. The information they had was similar to the second hand information we have.

If they had a cell phone why didn't they use it before the bad guys broke in?

She wrote they were sleeping but saw bad guys coming to the house in the back. Make sense to anyone?

"My husband and I were sleeping at our home....At about 2.30 AM I saw 3 men approaching from the back area of the house."

They are in a condo complex which I assume means the homes are close together. She wrote that they were yelling and the bad guys were yelling, yet no one in the complex called the police. How did that happen?

She wrote that the bad guys used a brick to break the glass of their glass front door. I've seen glass doors in Mexico but they all have burglar bars on them. I don't think these people (whoever wrote the letter) have even been in Mexico.

Glass breaking, people screaming, a car alarm going off and not one neighbor called the police in a condo complex. Sure.

"The robbers were also screaming and yelling because they were not at first able to get in. The leader of the bad guys picked up a brick and threw it at our glass door, shattering the glass. They were then able to get inside by smashing all the glass out of the door. "

Again, wouldn't most people use their phone to call the emergency number, run to a neighbor's for help, call the police and not a cab, if injured call an ambulance and not a cab, tell the security guard to call the police?

She wrote that their bank cards were taken and she gave them the PIN numbers. All the ATMs I've seen in Mexico have cameras. The police didn't bother to look at the tapes?

If this really happened, these people did not want the police involved because they are hiding something. They claimed they reported the stolen car to the Federal Preventive Police. Why the PFP?

http://www.ssturdevantphotography.com/OaxacaUprising/PFP.htm

"PFP are akin in style to the Mexican Army, but organizationally separate."

"The troops are young males, their commanders middle aged, seasoned military men. All are highly trained, come replete with contemporary assault suits, fashioned in style of medieval knights"

The PFP hasn't been called the PFP in manyl years. We call them Federales:

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Federal_Police_(Mexico)

"The Federal Police was created as the Federal Preventive Police in 1998 by the initiative of President Ernesto Zedillo (1994–2000) to prevent and combat crime throughout Mexico. The PF has been assuming its authority in stages over time, as its budget has grown and it has combined and reorganized police departments from major agencies such as those for migration, treasury, and highways. Many large bus stations and airports in Mexico are assigned a PF detachment. Investigation of federal crimes is handled by Ministerial Federal Police, the Mexican equivalent of the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation."

Apparently she didn't know people living here call them Federales.

I bet whoever wrote this highly imaginative letter has never set foot in Mexico and wanted to see how often the letter would be published. Not very often since it first popped up in June and it looks like it's only hit 3-4 sites.




norteño

Jul 6, 2011, 7:30 PM

Post #25 of 38 (3556 views)

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Re: [Axixic] BorderlandBeat Article

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"The PFP hasn't been called the PFP in manyl years. We call them Federales:"

You are really grasping at straws to discredit this account that has been confirmed by a long-standing forum in the place it happened.

To this day Mexican newspapers commonly refer to the Policía Federal by its old name Policía Federal Preventiva or PFP, for instance in the article below from today's news I selected at random from a large number of recent stories. Historically in Mexico "federales" has meant the army, although I have noticed an increased tendency in recent years to refer to the Federal Police as that.

http://www.oem.com.mx/elsoldezacatecas/notas/n2136047.htm

El Sol de Zacatecas
6 de julio de 2011

Redacción

Fresnillo, Zacatecas.- Durante un operativo la Policía Federal Preventiva "reventó" una bodega localizada en la comunidad de Monte Mariana donde se hallaron varios vehículos con reporte de robo, algunos de ellos con varios impactos de bala.
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