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wearechange

May 27, 2011, 12:17 PM

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One fine mess.

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I try to be an optimist but after the recent battles between The Family and the Knights Templar I feel it is another blow to the already low tourism in the state.



Anonimo

May 28, 2011, 5:02 AM

Post #2 of 23 (11212 views)

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Re: [wearechange] One fine mess.

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Where has that conflict been taking place?



Saludos,
Anonimo


Brian

May 28, 2011, 5:58 AM

Post #3 of 23 (11206 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] One fine mess.

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Where has that conflict been taking place?


http://alertaperiodistica.com.mx/...choacan-jalisco.html


(This post was edited by Rolly on May 28, 2011, 8:40 AM)


arbon

May 28, 2011, 6:39 AM

Post #4 of 23 (11198 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] One fine mess.

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Apatzingan,

"Fighting broke out Monday and lasted for three days. But news of the conflict was slow to get out because local media in states like Michoacán have largely stopped covering the carnage on orders from drug gangs".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



chinagringo


May 28, 2011, 7:17 AM

Post #5 of 23 (11191 views)

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Re: [wearechange] One fine mess.

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With respect to the effect on tourism, I have noticed numerous NOB news articles with Morelia listed as the location or source of the information. It isn't until one actually reads the entire article that they find out the incident happened no where near Morelia. For example, an article on the killing of 28 in Nayarit had Morelia in the banner and the same goes for articles on Apatzingan and Acapulco.

We know that people often don't read the whole article and probably aren't familiar with the geography. So they jump to the conclusion that all of this is happening in Morelia!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



jrpierce


May 28, 2011, 8:00 AM

Post #6 of 23 (11184 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] One fine mess.

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Neil, you are right about the stories showing the source of the news as Morelia.

I'm visiting the US right now and see the effect first-hand. People are asking me about the story as though it was occurring in Morelia.

I used to live in Carmel by the Sea, California. That charming and very safe city is 40 minutes from Salinas, California which is a city filled with gang violence, drive-bys and murders. If the US press warned people not to visit Carmel because of violence in Salinas, there would be an outcry. But the media does the same thing to Mexico. As you mentioned, Neil, in this latest round of stories they are even lumping in incidents in other states as though they happened in Michoacán.

Unfortunately, this will likely continue. My wife and I will just have to keep reassuring our family and friends that it is safe to visit us in the Morelia/Pátzcuaro area.

Jim


Brian

May 28, 2011, 9:23 AM

Post #7 of 23 (11163 views)

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Re: [jrpierce] One fine mess.

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I don't know whether esperanza intends to contribute to this message thread. In her blog, she addresses a decision she and her partner have made about moving away from Morelia. I have always valued her take on the current situation and, ironically, when recently asked about where we would live in Mexico if given the choice, we both have the same answer: Mexico City.


robt65

May 28, 2011, 9:42 AM

Post #8 of 23 (11154 views)

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Re: [Brian] One fine mess.

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Hi jrpierce,

No sence hurring now . . . . . apparently she already beat you to it. From her writings on other posts, it appears she has already made the move.

Regards,
robt65


Casa

May 28, 2011, 11:29 AM

Post #9 of 23 (11130 views)

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Re: [jrpierce] One fine mess.

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Well the conflict region in Michoacán (tierra caliente) I believe is just over 100 miles from Morelia/ Pátzcuaro area.

Personally if there 2,500 people fleeing Salinas California due villages being ravaged by hired gunmen, over 40 elementary schools closed due to violence, trucks being set ablaze on the highway turning the region into a battle field, a trip to Carmel would not be the first place I would choose to go......I also wonder what the US press would say about it.

The most recent US State Dept warning for Mexico says that one should defer non-essential travel to the State of Michoacán, which is home to another of Mexico's most dangerous TCOs, "La Familia". Attacks on government officials and law enforcement and military personnel, and other incidents of TCO-related violence, have occurred throughout Michoacan, including in and around the capital of Morelia and in the vicinity of the world famous butterfly sanctuaries in the eastern part of the State.”

Tamaulipas is the only other state that has a STATE wide warning…

Personally I find it to be a disservice, and frankly I am quite surprised, that a Warden for the US Embassy would reassure people that it is safe to visit an area that has such a US State Department travel warning in place.


chinagringo


May 28, 2011, 3:05 PM

Post #10 of 23 (11094 views)

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Re: [Casa] One fine mess.

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It seems to me that Michoacan has been on the US State Department radar since the September, 2008 grenade incident. And then when the eight Federale stations were attacked on one day in July (or was it June) of '09, they again put Michoacan on the warning list and it may have stayed there ever since.

I believe that the Warden designation for State Department is a voluntary and unpaid position. If JRPierce chooses to make a personal comment or evaluation, I would think that is his right as a citizen, who isn't controlled by any crazy rules that the US Government might impose on their employees. It takes less work and effort by Consular staff to simply slap the designation on the entire State rather than doing a good job and defining the hotspots within a given State. Going back to the original comment - Apatzingan and that general area has been what I would define as a "hot spot" going all the way back to 2009 and probably before.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



jrpierce


May 28, 2011, 4:19 PM

Post #11 of 23 (11078 views)

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Re: [Casa] One fine mess.

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Casa, while I am a Warden for the US Embassy, as Neil said, I have not given up freedom of speech, nor am I under an obligation to support what they say--simply to pass it along unedited or excerpted. As it happens I do support much of what they say, however not all. I personally feel the warnings for Michoacán are over broad. FWIW, I know that some Embassy personnel feel the same way. I would not seek to buttress my opinion by offering a personal opinion based on being a Warden. That would be inappropriate.

My comparison between Carmel and Salinas and Tierra Caliente and Morelia was to illustrate the point that because one place is very unsafe, a place nearby may be perfectly safe. I did not state, nor intend to imply, that the situations are identical. Further in support of that, I think many of us who have spent time in Mexico know that often the smaller Pueblos have been under the thumb of the gangs for many years--far more so than the larger cities.

BTW, Neil is correct that Michoacán was under a state-wide warning for more than a couple of years. Whether it started with the El Grito bombing I don't know, but it certainly makes sense that was the impetus.

Jim


jrpierce


May 28, 2011, 4:25 PM

Post #12 of 23 (11076 views)

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Re: [Brian] One fine mess.

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Brian, my wife and I are grateful to Esperanza for introducing us to Morelia a little more than three years ago. When she moved from Guadalajara to Morelia, she urged us to visit and see what a great city it is. We did, fell in love, and have been there ever since.

That said, she and I differ in our opinion about the security situation in Morelia. We have done so before on this and other boards. It is one of those issues where people do not always see things the same way.

Jim


chinagringo


May 29, 2011, 8:42 AM

Post #13 of 23 (11014 views)

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Re: [jrpierce] One fine mess.

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...g-gang_n_868524.html

The above link to an article which provides a good example of what I was referring to. Sure they mention Apatzingan but provide no reference as to it's distance from Morelia. While the article does mention activity in Jalisco, it doesn't detail that 36 of the 50 were arrested there. And then they drag Cancun into the story. I would say that a good 90% of the typical NOB resident reading this story have no clue as to the geography and simply make the assumption that it all must be near Morelia.

EL UNIVERSAL provides a more detailed and accurate story:

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/185788.html
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



chinagringo


May 29, 2011, 11:05 AM

Post #14 of 23 (10987 views)

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Re: [arbon] One fine mess.

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"because local media in states like Michoacán have largely stopped covering the carnage on orders from drug gangs".

I recently ran across a "new to me" site which may be the most comprehensive of any I have found. If you look in the far right column, you can pull the news up by State.

http://www.lapoliciaca.com/
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



esperanza

May 29, 2011, 2:19 PM

Post #15 of 23 (10956 views)

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Re: [wearechange] One fine mess.

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The OP states that this is a situation BETWEEN La Familia and the Knights Templar. Nothing could be further from the truth. The situation is between La Familia (aka Knights Templar) and the police. And the problems occurred no where near Morelia, but rather along the Jalisco/Michoacan border.

I know it's sometimes hard for folks who read Spanish at a less-than-fluent level to get the jist of journal-ese, but it's important not to post misinformation.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









arbon

May 29, 2011, 3:58 PM

Post #16 of 23 (10938 views)

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Re: [esperanza] One fine mess.

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In Reply To
The OP states that this is a situation BETWEEN La Familia and the Knights Templar. Nothing could be further from the truth. The situation is between La Familia (aka Knights Templar) and the police. And the problems occurred no where near Morelia, but rather along the Jalisco/Michoacan border.

I know it's sometimes hard for folks who read Spanish at a less-than-fluent level to get the jist of journal-ese, but it's important not to post misinformation.


Well this is certainly a Keeper!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Brian

May 29, 2011, 4:11 PM

Post #17 of 23 (10936 views)

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Re: [esperanza] One fine mess.

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I just brought home some tacos de lengua from a food truck in Austin. It has a sign that reads "Comida Estilo Tierra Caliente" I struck up a conversation with the owner about the villagers who fled their homes to avoid the sicarios. She was surprised that I knew where it is.


chinagringo


May 29, 2011, 5:03 PM

Post #18 of 23 (10919 views)

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Re: [esperanza] One fine mess.

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I too have read a number of articles in both English and Spanish that seemed to indicate a power struggle and infighting between La Familia and Knights Templar. Now I will claim to be fluent in English and more than somewhat lacking in Spanish. Since those of us that fit the descriptor: "less-than-fluent level" do make an attempt to understand, I have to wonder if the poster is willing to provide documentation(links or quotes) or are we expected to just take it as the "gospel"?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



tonyburton / Moderator


May 29, 2011, 5:14 PM

Post #19 of 23 (10918 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] One fine mess.

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Oh for goodness sake! (I'll save Esperanza's exasperation)
In the article linked to above, it clearly states:
"entre presuntos miembros de la organización criminal La Familia-Los Caballeros Templarios y policías federales."
=
"between presumed members of the criminal organization [note singular] La Familia-Knights Templar and federal police"


(This post was edited by tonyburton on May 29, 2011, 5:14 PM)


chinagringo


May 29, 2011, 6:50 PM

Post #20 of 23 (10899 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] One fine mess.

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Tony:

While I would agree that the link provided by Brian seemed to indicate that This particular incident was between the cartels and the police, there have been other incidents in Michoacan that are reported to be between La Familia and Knights in a power struggle for territory. There was an incident earlier in the week that was reported to be infighting between the two factions and resulted in residents having to vacate and move to shelters for their personal safety near Apatzingan. Some links:

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/...-los-caballeros.html
http://www.lapoliciaca.com/...-en-tierra-caliente/

There was a video of the Knights cruising a town with approx. 50 vehicles to exhibit their power.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



arbon

May 29, 2011, 6:57 PM

Post #21 of 23 (10898 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] One fine mess.

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Sources:
http://www.elnorte.com/nacional/articulo/1253474/
http://www.elnorte.com/nacional/articulo/627/1253239/
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/768745.html
http://www.milenio.com/node/730140

A Federal Police operation against La Familia Michoacán which left 11 dead and 36 detained, has provided insight into La Familia Michoacan and Los Caballeros Templarios.

Per PF General Commissioner Facundo Rosas, the operation was in response to a PF helicopter attack on Tuesday, May 24th, in Tierra Caliente. The operation resulted in the arrest of 36 La Familia members, 11 members killed and two federal police injured. An arsenal of weapons and tactical gear was also seized.

Detained were Gaudiyur Ambriz Altamirano, who is in charge of a group led by José de Jesús Méndez Vargas, aka "El Chango.” César Vargas Valencia, "El Caramelo", and Gerardo Fernández Covarrubias, "El Mofles" were also arrested and identified as group leaders (possibly cell leaders).

The group was discovered in a location in Las Lomas, Jalisco, awaiting instructions from El Chango Mendez, for a plan to attack the group calling themselves ‘Los Caballeros Templarios.’

Since the death of Nazario Moreno Gonzalez, aka “El Chayo,” it was believed that La Familia was crippled and had therefore claimed to have dismantled. According to the detained, as of December 2010 there was actually a rupture within La Familia, and since then a dispute over territory with Los Caballeros.

The breakdown of La Familia occurred when Enrique Plancarte Solis, aka “La Chiva”, and El Chango Mendez, took over leadership after the death of “El Chayo.” El Chango and El Chayo, had long co-headed La Familia Michoacan. La Chiva and El Chango apparently could not see eye to eye.

In December 2010, Enrique Plancarte and Fernando Gomez, aka “La Tuta,” collaborated in forming their own organization “Los Caballeros Templarios,” in opposition to the side of La Familia led by El Chango. Sources report that leaders formerly under the chain of command of El Chango defected to Los Caballeros.

Since the May 24th helicopter shooting in Terra Caliente, several surrounding communities reportedly were evacuated due to ongoing gun battles.

Michoacán has been noted as the state with the most reported Federal Police deaths. La Familia has long declared war on the Federal Police in Michoacán, and has led an ongoing media campaign against their alleged abuse of the people of Michoacán.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



wearechange

May 30, 2011, 12:10 PM

Post #22 of 23 (10813 views)

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Re: [jrpierce] One fine mess.

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I sure do miss the Monterey Bay fog, especially during this hot weather.
Back to the power struggle. What smells fishy is that the cartel convoy (up to 50 trucks) drove from Apatzingan to Buenavista and the Army and Federal police were nowhere to be found. That is quite a presence that is hard not to see.


chinagringo


May 31, 2011, 5:39 AM

Post #23 of 23 (10733 views)

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Re: [wearechange] One fine mess.

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La Familia was Planning an Attack Against the Knights Templar


http://www.borderlandbeat.com/...-attack-against.html
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

 
 
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