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robt65

May 21, 2011, 4:52 PM

Post #1 of 33 (3593 views)

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Making a concrete addition to a Home

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Has anyone here made an addition to a home built out of lower medium grade Cantera stone? Can either a concrete block or a poured concrete mix be used to make the walls and a roof solid enough to sustain several people on a roof top terrace?
Does Mexican concrete in general have any asbestos in the mix?

I want to add a 60 foot by 20 foot addition to a home. Of course sufficient footers both in width and depth will be used. The home was built using a lower medium grade Cantera stone and has been surfaced with concrete. What would be the best way of making such an adjoining addition to this home? My thoughts are to burro into the Cantera stone and insert rebar, concreting the rebar inserts as an anchor for either concrete block or using forms and a poured concrete slab floor, 3 walls and roof; using the original exterior wall of the house as the 4th wall of the addition. Possible? Without leaks during the rainy season?

robt65

sparks

May 21, 2011, 5:07 PM

Post #2 of 33 (3583 views)

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I would build a freestanding addition and tie into the roof as needed to avoid water problems. The main isue I see is that you should have castillos every 2.5 meters or start putting in vigas

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

(This post was edited by sparks on May 21, 2011, 5:08 PM)

Bennie García

May 21, 2011, 5:59 PM

Post #3 of 33 (3572 views)

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In Reply To

I would build a freestanding addition and tie into the roof as needed to avoid water problems. The main isue I see is that you should have castillos every 2.5 meters or start putting in vigas

You space and size your posts and beams according to loads.

I wouldn't use a typical concrete, brick and mortar construction like sparks used. I would go with polystyrene panels. Strip footings 60cm deep and a 10cm slab would probably be plenty of foundation. The roof question needs more info in order to answer. It is possible though to ensure a leak proof roof..

sparks

May 21, 2011, 7:08 PM

Post #4 of 33 (3564 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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I assume Panel MG is what you are referring to ... and yes it's popular, light and relatively easy to work with. I didn't specify one or the other

I don't understand the difference for castillo/viga support for the two types of construction

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

Bennie García

May 21, 2011, 7:13 PM

Post #5 of 33 (3560 views)

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I use Panel W products but they are basically the same thing. You don't need posts or beams with panel construction. You can add them if you prefer but for the great majority of cases they are not used. The rigidity of the panel when properly installed doesn't require reinforcement.

sparks

May 21, 2011, 7:28 PM

Post #6 of 33 (3558 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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Would be interesting to see/know the process. So far the guys I know only use lots of post and beams (2 meter dala I think) just to support the roof. Does this require a lighter foam roof as well? Hmmmm

I plan to use panel on the second floor but still 3 meter ceilings

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

robt65

May 22, 2011, 5:45 AM

Post #7 of 33 (3535 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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Hi Bernie,

What do you find here in Mexico is the approximate cost per sq. Meter for this type of construction? Is this type of construction common enough in Mexico that quality workers are fairly easy to find for such installation?

The 60 foot by 20 foot addition to the home will be divided into three different rooms. the 60 foot portion of this design will be the overall length of the addition. The largest being a master bedroom of 16 foot by 20 foot, the other two rooms will be a generous 10 foot by 20 foot laundry / bulk food and household items storage space and the third space will be a large 10 foot by 15 foot attached bathroom to the Master bathroom. The remaining space will be a small household workshop, for my tool storage and a small work bench. I would like to put a rooftop patio (if you will) using the whole of the 20 foot by 60 foot rooftop. Using the patio for a BBQ and sink and large bar refrigerator, for entertaining. The roof top would have additional weight of a perimeter of iron railing, to keep drunks and small children from falling off the roof top patio. I would also tile the floor of the rooftop patio. That adds up to a fair amount of weight on the roof top patio.

Thanks,
robt65

(This post was edited by robt65 on May 22, 2011, 6:24 AM)

salto_jorge

May 22, 2011, 7:18 AM

Post #8 of 33 (3529 views)

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Is just like building a two story home, it is all about the super structure consisting of supporting pillars and beams designed to hold the weight.

For a second floor, you should be able to make a super structure enclosing the current home, then remove the roof not ceiling from the old home and be good to go. Designing the outer pillars around the old house could be tricky with existing windows and doors.

If the addition does not need to be above the existing home, just build it right next to what you currently have. Our place in Sonora must have 4 additions, each with its own building style all under the same main roof. The oldest part of the house is adobe, the newer parts are concrete block between poured concrete beams. Many windows in the old structures were turned into door ways.

(This post was edited by salto_jorge on May 22, 2011, 7:19 AM)

robt65

May 22, 2011, 9:06 AM

Post #9 of 33 (3508 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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salto_jorge,

DUH! "It's all about super structure consisting of supporting pillars and beams designed to hold the weight." Really? I am quite familiar with additional flooring and beams and pillars and weight distribution. Read my original posting carefully. That is not my question. I am not making an entire second floor of a building. I am making an addition alongside an existing building. No windows or doors along that side of the building to be concerned about. No "tricky" about that! You're talking about a building, all under the same roof. I am not. I am talking about adjoining a new construction addition using one kind of material to another (existing building) of different material, with an entirely different roof addition, without bóveda ceilings (roof) as the original building has. If you are not concerned about a "lifespan" of your additions, that's good for you. I am concerned about it. If you are not concerned about leakage using two entirely different materials good for you . . . I am happy for you. I am concerned about it. So thanks for the lessons in architecture that apparently you know nothing about! I really do not appreciate your snarkiness. If you have something to add positivly, that would be appreciated. If not, I prefer you keep your thoughts to yourself.

robert65

robert65

(This post was edited by robt65 on May 22, 2011, 9:07 AM)

chicois8

May 22, 2011, 4:47 PM

Post #10 of 33 (3479 views)

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robt65, Since Christmas 2010 you have started 11 posts just on the construction site alone, and many folks have tried to help and answer your questions. Now Salto_Jorge offes his insite and you reply by writing DUH!
and closing with " If you have something to add positivly, that would be appreciated. If not, I prefer you keep your thoughts to yourself." If you have nothing nice to say, well I guess you know the rest of that saying...I for one will not be answering any more of your posts...Karma,karma, karma.........suerte y paz

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robt65

May 22, 2011, 4:59 PM

Post #11 of 33 (3474 views)

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chicois8

Suits me fine chicois8, suits me fine. sarcasm is not appreciated in an answer. I always respond positively to a straight answer sin sarcasm.

robt65

(This post was edited by robt65 on May 22, 2011, 5:02 PM)

Bennie García

May 22, 2011, 5:39 PM

Post #12 of 33 (3466 views)

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Your m2 costs depend on a lot of different factors. You don't offer nearly enough details. But with careful planning you can build your basic structure, footings, slab, walls and roof for less than 3000 pesos a m2.

Building with panel is pretty straight forward. There are a few simple details you need to know but nothing difficult. Where you save money is on labor but you must have a well thought out plan before you begin erecting the walls. A couple of hog ring pliers and a few thousand hog rings will speed the job along much faster than tying everything off by hand with alambre recocido.

Panel construction is more than strong enough to support a roof top patio. Again, you need to think through all of the details before beginning. Such things as anchoring your hand rails, door and window openings, or anything else you will need solid backing for anchor bolts etc.

robt65

May 22, 2011, 6:32 PM

Post #13 of 33 (3458 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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Hello Bennie,

Thanks for the straight forward answers, they are appreciated. I have all the tools and a pretty good supply of hog rings from previous upholstery projects. In your experience, what size hog rings are better suited than others for such a project?

What other details might you want? I am particularly concerned about two entirely different materials and ground settling, that can most likely cause a roof leak at the adjoining seems of the new structure to the older structure. I have used in the past o larger commercial architectural projects a rubberized membrane at such connecting places. Have you ever sued such material and what luck have you had using that material, if you have used it? I also use the same material around all window headers and door headers.

Have you ever used, or ever seen any other such flexible material for such a joining of two different structural materials that allow for small movement or settling over the years?

The existing home has been in place for more than 20 years and is pretty well settled. My concern is the new structure weight and new settling that is almost surely to occur. While a great amount of thick rock (medium grade Cantara) is in the subsurface, there are sufficiently large enough spaces of deep earth in gaps of the geological subsurface. Exactly the locations of such differences are not possible to tell, for my budget. I thought of using a double size footing shoe (not height) on the new addition that may well distribute the weight better and more uniformly, than a usual size footer shoe for such a project. What is your opinion on that process.?
In México, it has in the past, been an issue that asbestos is many times used as a bonding material in the concrete mix, for me that is a killer. I already have a good case of 50% service connected asbestosis from my time in the Navy. I really do not want any more exposure under any circumstances. Do you know if that is still the case generally speaking here in Mexico? I have found many people here do not even check the composition of the various building materials they use in their construction. If that is the case for those people, and they are happy about their decision, that is fine by me, I am happy for them. In five or ten years time when they start to have separation or sinking problems, with cracks appearing in the walls and / or floors, with leaks all over the place from a displaced roof, then they start crying and bitching. I prefer to do my homework ahead of time.
Five or ten years from now, I may not be around to worry about such things, but my wife (much younger than me) and our children will be. I don't want them to be saddled with such problems or unnecessary expenses for repairs, after I am gone. I respect others choices for themselves, but please (I) don't (want them (others to)) ask me (not you) to follow their opinions, when I know there can be really serious and expensive repercussions, at a later time using bad decisions in initial construction. It is much easier to build new that is for sure, as you well know. Remodeling using additions among other things are a real headache, if not constructed properly.
Just chalk my response up to my being a cranky old man, who is in some cases, a perfectionist. Not always successfully so, but a half assed perfectionist none the less.
Thanks again for the straight forward answers and suggestions.
Robt65

sparks

May 22, 2011, 7:01 PM

Post #14 of 33 (3454 views)

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In Reply To

I for one will not be answering any more of your posts...Karma,karma, karma.........suerte y paz

Make that two

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

robt65

May 22, 2011, 7:17 PM

Post #15 of 33 (3442 views)

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Thanks Sparks,

Suits me fine, Especially since I have learned that you have not finished your housing project for several years now, and that you are not really an electrician by trade.

Have a good one.

robt65

salto_jorge

May 23, 2011, 6:05 AM

Post #16 of 33 (3422 views)

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How many people are several people on a roof top terrace?
Will they be sitting, dancing or both?

Is your intent to have load-bearing walls or curtain walls?

Sculptari

May 23, 2011, 10:41 AM

Post #17 of 33 (3389 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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The style of construction Benny is describing is really catching on in Mexico, U.S.A. & Canada. Here is a recent video spraying concrete onto steel reinforced panels. Unbelievably fast and easy - the downside, a hot fire would cause structural damage and a lot of nasty smoke. Look around at some of the other youtubes there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZlvRI_L4ho

The biggest problem I see in your plans, which I see all over Mexico, is the lack of 'waterstops'. The very simple concept of embedding cement resistant rubber barriers, in a wide variety of shapes and sizes, that stop water or moisture flow in heavy rains. No more salitre. You only have one chance to do it right - if they were not installed, it would be real expensive to put them in later.

robt65

May 23, 2011, 7:19 PM

Post #18 of 33 (3358 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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Hello salto_jorge,

Thank you for the direct questions. All exterior walls and Interior walls are going to be load bearing, concrete block and poured concrete center block walls. The largest span below the roof top terrace, will be the 20 foot by 16 foot Master bedroom below. Ceilings will be 10 foot ceilings with a flat roof which will have an exterior slip proof ceramic tile as a flooring material, there will be a pergola over about one third of the rooftop terrace which will not be on the larger span of the main bedroom below. There will be a limit of 18 to 20 persons and not for dancing, but solely for a BBQ or other meals. The brick BBQ will be constructed over the + load bearing walls of the master bath and the laundry / dry good storage rooms below. There will be a substantial load bearing cross section + of interior concrete walls below the brick BBQ, small wet sink and bar size fridge. The floor will have a maximum 2% slope and cross slope, for rain water drainage to a collection point for the underground and above ground cistern.

The stairway up to the rooftop terrace will be a standalone self supporting stair way using Cantera stone pillars.

After having a fire in my last home caused by lightning, I will not have any more "curtain walls" of any material again. They burned very hot during the blaze and the total house was destroyed. As a result, I do not have much faith in such curtain walls any more.

I will also have a 3M rubber membrane that I have used in larger commercial projects before, at all roof joints plus over and around all window and door headers. Window and door headers, frames and sashes will be of steel material. All electric lines for electric service, will be encased within electrical PVC conduit. All electric outlets and switches on the rooftop terrace will be CGPC protected circuits.

Sculpari, thanks for the input. As you can see above I am a great believer in “water stops” as you call them. I wouldn’t build an addition or new construction without them. 3M makes several great adhesive rubber material products in both sheets and rolls for commercial application. Some folks like Synko-Flex or Hydro-Flex, I guess I am just used to the application of the 3 M products. Such water stops should always be used for any breach of a solid surface into a structure. So easy to use and so preventive for leaks. I am just wondering whether to also use some galvanized tin sheets with a modified double “v” brake form at the roof /wall and all to existing to new wall joints under the water stops.

If I have left anything out that you think might be pertinent to my original question, just let me know.

Thanks
robt65
robt65

Bennie García

May 23, 2011, 8:06 PM

Post #19 of 33 (3350 views)

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Make that three. Why waste my time. Not sure why this guy asks for any advice. He never takes any.

Sculptari

May 24, 2011, 8:54 AM

Post #20 of 33 (3317 views)

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I forgot to add - the cantera stone left in Mexico is low quality, it is extremely difficult to find without faults, especially anything 'pillar' size. Add the problems of transporting, and the dangers of installing anything vertical and heavy. Go high quality concrete and rebar, if you want the extra mile, use epoxy coated rebar or coat it yourself.

If you do find cantera stone of this quality let me know - it should be reserved for the repair of historic building treasures, many of which are suffering badly from this lack of raw materials.

robt65

May 24, 2011, 8:53 PM

Post #21 of 33 (3285 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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Hello Bennie,

I don't know what more you want Bennie. You asked some straight forward questions and I gave you some straight forward answers. So what is your problem? I asked a very specific set of questions about joining two different materials of buildings together, plus one questions in regards to Mexican concrete and cement having any asbestos in the mixes as a standard and I have yet to find a suitable answer. My second question has never even been touched. Curtain walls will not sustain the weight figures that I have in mind. My personal experience has been that curtain walls of most materials, (and there are several different materials that curtain walls are made of), are fire traps. Hence my full description to you in my answers to the questions that you asked me. As I asked you in my reply, what other information would you need? Simple question. Given all the information I have given to you, I would think that a man of your experience, would have what you need for a response of a better nature. Unless of course you don’t have an answer that would be productive, and I would also respect that answer. None of us has all the answers Bernie, certainly no shame in that from my perspective.

You might also be very surprised at what good suggestions I have taken advantage of. I just wasn't under the assumption that I was required to report on any or all suggestions that I have used. Mia Copa.

For anyone wishing to play with their own money on my project I will be happy to make a full and complete report on how good their suggestions were or were not. Until I start receiving bags of someone else’s money for my project, I think I might just take what suggestions I think may apply appropriately to my project an leave the rest of the junk by wannabes alone. . . . . that is of course, if that suits you all OK.

Robt65

(This post was edited by robt65 on May 24, 2011, 9:00 PM)

Bennie García

May 25, 2011, 5:32 AM

Post #22 of 33 (3271 views)

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You also asked for info on using panel. Then in a later post you state that you will be using the traditional post and beam with infill wall construction. Why then should I waste my time answering questions about a method you aren't considering using?

Or better yet, since you have already decided which technique you will be using, why bother asking?

Good luck with your project. You'll get plenty of dubious advice from the "experts".

Sculptari

May 25, 2011, 1:35 PM

Post #23 of 33 (3227 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Making a concrete addition to a Home

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I'm sorry I missed the part asking about asbestos in concrete, and then implying this is the norm in Mexico - this is absurd. There was a time when asbestos was so cheap and plentiful, and lime/portland or lime/plaster mixes took so long to cure, that asbestos was added as a binding fiber. Those days were around 1920. Today we use PVA fibers or AR glass fibers, maybe they look like asbestos - but they are not. One of the very best fibers remains to be horse hair.

You may be referring to 'perlite', which is mined in Mexico. It is often used in fireproof 'lightweight concrete' roofs and a colleague, Steve Kornher, over near San Miguel Allende, http://www.flyingconcrete.com/ , knows more about concrete roofs, vaulted construction and thin shell construction than anyone in North America. He is available to consult @ 25$ per hour - which is an unbelievable bargain for a man who can do absolutely anything with concrete. He can dream in concrete and know that it will still be standing in 100 years time - are you prepared for such a commitment?

(This post was edited by Rolly on May 25, 2011, 1:56 PM)

robt65

May 25, 2011, 7:09 PM

Post #24 of 33 (3195 views)

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Bennie,

When I originally asked, I was thinking more about Cantera stone or concrete and really had not given much thought to panel use or curtain walls. You did make me think twice about it . . . . Then I remember the fire my home sustained last September and re-read the report from the State Fire Marshall . . . . . it was not encouraging . . . . I still thought about it. I also received some PM's from a couple of residential architect friends . . . . we all started going over the weight factors together and decided to error on the side of caution.

I for sure sdisn’t (in my original post give enough information in my concern for the weight factor, In my second post I gave substantially more information of weight concerns,

In your original post weight was not discussed at all, In yur second more inquisitive post weight was barely touched upon; you did however tell me . . . . “Panel construction is more than strong enough to support a roof top patio. Again, you need to think through all of the details before beginning. Such things as anchoring your hand rails, door and window openings, or anything else you will need solid backing for anchor bolts etc.”

I took your advise and did “think through ALL OF THE DETAILS, including per sq foot weight allowances per adult, weights of an outdoor kitchen I would like to have up there, plumbing line weights, a four foot high wall surrounding the rooftop terrace and two or three foot iron fence work on top of that (per my wife’s request for our small children) for protection of people accidently falling off the terrace, the weight of a staircase leading up to the terrace, and the figures were to marginal for curtain walls or panel concrete sprayed floor/ ceilings to be comforting to me, for my project, so I made my choices, and then posted them.

A moderator once told me on here, that when one starts a post, they do not own that post and anyone can make or take whatever they wish to take and leave the rest behind. The same goes for advice / advise, or suggestions that different people make. That made sense to me then, and it still makes sense to me today.

Choice is a wonderful thing to have . . . . . . I and many others gave up a lot of years overseas and came back different than when we left as a result, in order to protect those choices, yours (if I do not agree) or mine (even if I make the wrong choice) in someone else’s eyes. To this day I will also continue to retain my choice, to either accept an idea or to not accept it. Why should I give myself any less choice, than I would give someone else?

Regards
robt65

Bennie García

May 25, 2011, 7:53 PM

Post #25 of 33 (3189 views)

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It is obvious you have no idea about the strength of panel construction or you would know that your requirements don't present even a minimal challenge to a properly built panel structure. And who said anything about curtain walls?.

No problem. As I said in an earlier post and others said before me. You aren't worth wasting time on.

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