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gene089

Mar 26, 2011, 6:10 PM

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Anti-American Sentiment?

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Two, three, four years ago, there were many demonstrations in Phoenix, Houston, Chicago, Washington D.C.,etc. calling for immigration reform, claiming that immigrants to the U.S., legal and illegal, were treated very badly in the U.S. Counter demonstrators across the street frequently carried very hateful and ugly signs. Sometimes they carried guns and sometimes they verbally and otherwise attacked the demonstrators. Police sometimes had to protect the peaceful demonstrators. I assume these incidents were shown on Mexican TV.

When the Arizona law was passed last year, President Calderon went on Mexican TV and suggested Mexicans not travel to Arizona because they might be treated very badly in Arizona. Right-wingers in the U.S. have called for many hateful, ugly, and outrageous suggestions concerning the border and Hispanics in U.S. Some state legislatures, such as Texas, are proposing very discriminatory and anti-Hispanic legislation. I am sure Mexicans are aware of these things.

Has any of the above generated any understandable anti-American sentiment among Mexicans? Like, if we are not welcome in their country, then they are not welcome in ours?

It seemed years ago that Americans in Mexico received special consideration from even the criminals, that criminals left Americans alone as it was accepted that Americans in Mexico contributed to the Mexican economy and thereby helped the poor of Mexico find jobs and income. While Americans do not appear to be singled out by criminals, except by corrupt police seeking mordidas, have Americans in Mexico lost some of their special protection when it comes to victim selection because of any new anti-American sentiment because of any of the above?


(This post was edited by gene089 on Mar 26, 2011, 6:27 PM)



Rolly


Mar 26, 2011, 6:15 PM

Post #2 of 62 (13746 views)

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Re: [gene089] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Nobody gets a pass from the drug gangs, not even women and priests.
Common criminals are just as uncaring.

Rolly Pirate


richmx2


Mar 27, 2011, 2:01 PM

Post #3 of 62 (13573 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Anti-American Sentiment?

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I don't see any particular rise in victimization of U.S. citizens... or specific targeting of them. Given the huge growth in the number of foreigners living in Mexico, it may even be less likely While I agree with Rolly that criminals are generally non-discriminatory when it comes to mayhem, when a non-Latin American foreigner is the victim of a serious crime, it is usually national news, and there is often extra assistance given to the victim that wouldn't be given to others.

As to overt discrimination (and resentment) of foreigners. Recent statistics suggest there is a sense that foreigners are disliked (according to the survey, Mexicans support "racial profiling" and a large number want foreign workers expelled) but whether that is new, or just an attitude that never had been surveyed, or whether the survey was skewed, is impossible to say. Of course, there are individuals who dislike foreigners (perhaps a large number of individuals) but that takes more the form of resentment towards the entitlements expected by, and given, "privileged foreigners" ("gringos", basically). Heck, even I'm appalled by the behavior and actions of some foreigners (and, a word of warning... a lot more Mexicans understand English than one might suspect).

Mexican manners outweigh any overt intolerance, though I suppose there are shopkeepers who'd just as soon not sell to foreigners, or aren't willing to go out of their way to assist someone who can't speak their language (and, as in any country, there are people who just assume they can't understand a person speaking with a foreign accent, and don't even bother trying).

I expect there are subtle (and maybe not so subtle) resentments against the economic and social impact of foreigners... say when in gringo-saturated communities, property rights come into question, or foreigners start demanding (as here in Mazatlán) action by the local administration or when actions that benefit foreigners conflict with other resident's concerns (say, with water rights for condo development vs. agriculture).

The only organized, large scale anti-U.S. demonstrations I've seen are directed against U.S. policy (the War against Iraq for example) not against U.S. citizens.


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com


T

Mar 27, 2011, 2:04 PM

Post #4 of 62 (13570 views)

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Re: [gene089] Anti-American Sentiment?

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I find the last paragraph of your missive to be spot on, as to my persoanl experiences. But again, I live in lakeside, an area where Americans and Canadians literally maintain the economy. T.


mevale

Mar 27, 2011, 6:27 PM

Post #5 of 62 (13514 views)

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Re: [T] Anti-American Sentiment?

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But again, I live in lakeside, an area where Americans and Canadians literally maintain the economy. T.


What nonsense. Contribute, yes. Maintain? Don't think so.


T

Mar 28, 2011, 1:30 PM

Post #6 of 62 (13377 views)

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Re: [mevale] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Clearly, you do not live in lakeside, nor have you visited. Between Americans and Canadians which are about 95% of our expat population, we are the primary employers in lakeside of locals. Between the 20,000 mas o menos of us, we provide employment to maids, gardeners, restaurant staff, restaurant owners, retailers, construction workers and the list goes on ad infinitum A day without foreigners in lakeside, would be a day of desolation for our area. T.


richmx2


Mar 28, 2011, 2:17 PM

Post #7 of 62 (13360 views)

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Re: [T] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Chapala is one of those places I was thinking of when talking about possible resentment by "locals". Mexicans are like human beings anywhere, and some are going to resent change no matter what the causation. It was after all the hotbed of a very nasty terrorist movement back in the 1920s, resenting what they saw as the imposition of the anti-clerical State.

It's unreasonable not to expect there are individuals (how many, and in what concentration I can't say) who resent the foreign presence for any number of reasons. They could be economic or cultural: people MAY perceive that the foreigners have unfair access to resources (not just water and land, which makes those larger than standard Mexican homes for a smaller than standard Mexican household look like profligate waste) and services (do rural residents in your municipio think the local police serve them as well as they serve you?) or cultural (are you sure your waiter wouldn't rather be farming or doing something else... or that he is satisfied with having studied a foreign language to earn tips?)

I'm not saying that foreigners are resented by everyone, nor that change is bad (it is neither bad nor good, it just is), but that human beings are imperfect and sometimes resist change, or feel threatened by change. And resent it, and take a dislike to what they perceive as the cause of that change. You and I, like it or not, are visible symbols of that change, and it's naive to think that we will NOT be resented by someone somewhere... and even more naive to assume everyone welcomes whatever it is we represent to their lives and to their community.


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com


tonyburton


Mar 28, 2011, 2:20 PM

Post #8 of 62 (13356 views)

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Re: [T] Anti-American Sentiment?

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"A day without foreigners in lakeside, would be a day of desolation for our area. T"

Possibly for Ajijic, but not for anywhere else.


(This post was edited by tonyburton on Mar 28, 2011, 3:27 PM)


T

Mar 28, 2011, 2:25 PM

Post #9 of 62 (13354 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Truly, one of the most remarkable and inciteful posts I have ever seen on a webboard. Thank you. T.


T

Mar 28, 2011, 2:33 PM

Post #10 of 62 (13346 views)

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Re: [T] Anti-American Sentiment?

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One of the things that bothers me about this website, is that when one replies to postings, the posting is gone and we are trusted to our memory. Not a good idea at our age. I would like to see the posting included in our response, so that we can refer to it, while addressing the response. T


T

Mar 28, 2011, 2:36 PM

Post #11 of 62 (13342 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Short, succinct, but I , for one, have no idea what you meant. T.


La Isla


Mar 28, 2011, 3:04 PM

Post #12 of 62 (13326 views)

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Re: [T] Anti-American Sentiment?

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In Reply To
One of the things that bothers me about this website, is that when one replies to postings, the posting is gone and we are trusted to our memory. Not a good idea at our age. I would like to see the posting included in our response, so that we can refer to it, while addressing the response. T


When responding to a post, click on "quote" in the upper-right hand corner of the post in question, and it will be included in your response. This should solve your problem!


Rolly


Mar 28, 2011, 3:28 PM

Post #13 of 62 (13313 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Anti-American Sentiment?

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NO don't use the quote function. It misfires more often than it works. Intermittent bug.
It worked for La Ista, but don't count on it.
Just use the copy command and use quotation marks or italics.

Rolly Pirate


La Isla


Mar 28, 2011, 3:32 PM

Post #14 of 62 (13307 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Anti-American Sentiment?

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NO don't use the quote function. It misfires more often than it works. Intermittent bug.
It worked for La Ista, but don't count on it.
Just use the copy command and use quotation marks or italics.


Rolly's right about problems with the quote function. I forgot to mention that I always use "Switch to Basic Editor" after clicking on "quote". That works like a charm!


arbon

Mar 28, 2011, 3:41 PM

Post #15 of 62 (13301 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Anti-American Sentiment?

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In Reply To

In Reply To
NO don't use the quote function. It misfires more often than it works. Intermittent bug.
It worked for La Ista, but don't count on it.
Just use the copy command and use quotation marks or italics.


Rolly's right about problems with the quote function. I forgot to mention that I always use "Switch to Basic Editor" after clicking on "quote". That works like a charm!


Testing La Isla's idea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



arbon

Mar 28, 2011, 3:43 PM

Post #16 of 62 (13299 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Anti-American Sentiment?

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In Reply To
NO don't use the quote function. It misfires more often than it works. Intermittent bug.
It worked for La Ista, but don't count on it.
Just use the copy command and use quotation marks or italics.


Whahoo, Rolly we can now quote.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Gringal

Mar 28, 2011, 4:22 PM

Post #17 of 62 (13279 views)

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Re: [gene089] Anti-American Sentiment?

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There is one thing that has often given me pause with regard to Mexican/American immigration policies, to wit:

I understand why Mexicans are willing to take risks to get to the U.S. side in order to find jobs, and the welcome mat is definitely not out at the border for them.
Mexicans, from the top levels of government to the guy on the street, complain about this and think the U.S. should change.

At the same time, if a U.S. citizen wants to go live in Mexico, the welcome mat is only out IF, and we all know what the IF's are. Pages and pages of them; documents, proof of income, etc.

If someone from the Southern end of Mexico wants in, the welcome mat is definitely not out.

I don't get how Mexico rationalizes those inconsistencies while assiduously continuing them. Anyone care to try?


ken_in_dfw

Mar 28, 2011, 5:53 PM

Post #18 of 62 (13259 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Anti-American Sentiment?

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I don't get the inconsistency, Gringal. To me, Mexico, the U.S., and virtually every other country whose immigration policies I have had the opportunity to peruse, are remarkably consistent. To wit: bring enough money and the welcome mat shall be rolled out for you.


Reefhound


Mar 28, 2011, 6:25 PM

Post #19 of 62 (13248 views)

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Re: [ken_in_dfw] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Of course, every nation looks out for it's own best interests in formulating immigration (and all other) policies. The inconsistency is in viewing this as perfectly normal and justified when you do it but vilifying someone else for it.


Gringal

Mar 28, 2011, 8:59 PM

Post #20 of 62 (13210 views)

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Re: [ken_in_dfw] Anti-American Sentiment?

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No argument with that. The problem is how upset the Mexican government is with the the way the U.S. Immigration policy is, when their own is very strict.


(This post was edited by Gringal on Mar 28, 2011, 8:59 PM)


johanson


Mar 28, 2011, 9:28 PM

Post #21 of 62 (13203 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Quote from Richmx2: "You and I, like it or not, are visible symbols of that change, and it's naive to think that we will NOT be resented by someone somewhere... and even more naive to assume everyone welcomes whatever it is we represent to their lives and to their community. http://mexfiles.net "

And what is it that makes some to most of us resented? I believe it's that many Mexicans hear on the news how many of us Americans up North demand that all Mexicans in the US learn how to speak English or leave, yet when most of us move to say Ajijic, 90% of us don't bother to learn more than 10 words of Spanish and some of us get mad when the person working at the cash register in the typical local drug or grocery store can't understand English because we haven't bothered to learn Spanish.

Once you start speaking Spanish, you would be surprised how much better things get here.

Pete aka "el ruco"






Gringal

Mar 29, 2011, 7:57 AM

Post #22 of 62 (13134 views)

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Re: [johanson] Anti-American Sentiment?

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I don't think people in the U.S. would be happy if every Mexican immigrant up there spoke perfect English, and I don't think Mexicans here would like us any better if we all spoke fluent Spanish. 'Nother whole story, I suspect.


johanson


Mar 29, 2011, 9:09 AM

Post #23 of 62 (13107 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Anti-American Sentiment?

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All I can tell you is, that now that I speak Spanish (not perfectly by any means) life is so much better. And some of my Mexican friends share some of their negative feelings with me about those of us who have been here many years and still don't speak Spanish.

They believe that here in Mexico, the better educated Mexican speaks several languages, while the poorly educated usually do not. They don't always believe that in the US for example, many well educated persons do not learn to speak a 2nd language. Rather they often look down upon us when we don't. And assume we are lower class and often have to come to Mexico to live because we can't afford to live in the states.

Please don't attack me for these comments. I'm only telling you what some of my Mexican friends think.


RickS


Mar 29, 2011, 9:13 AM

Post #24 of 62 (13110 views)

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Re: [T] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Well, T, maybe my reply works differently than yours, but when I Reply I get a copy of the Post that I am replying to down below the area where I am writing my reply. No trusting of memory required. Try looking just below where you go to "Post Reply".


(This post was edited by RickS on Mar 29, 2011, 9:17 AM)


Gringal

Mar 29, 2011, 9:37 AM

Post #25 of 62 (13090 views)

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Re: [johanson] Anti-American Sentiment?

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Not arguing with you on that, Pete. I agree that the sooner we learn to speak the language of the country in which we have chosen to live, the better our lives will be. However, I think there is much more to the anti-American sentiment than the language issue. For one thing, I could be stone deaf and notice that some residents here have an attitude which would create resentment without a word being spoken in any language.

Long ago, I knew a very intuitive and intelligent teenager who was a rather quiet girl. Once, she said "everyone knows what everyone else is really thinking anyway, so why talk a lot?" I have often remembered it........since it's mostly true. lol.

IMO, it could be the impression that NOB Americans think they know best........for everyone in the world. That does come through loud and clear. Much too loud. Unfortunately, many of them bring it along with them when they move to Mexico.
The words "should" and "ought to" are used far too often.
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