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Reefhound


Feb 8, 2011, 3:13 PM

Post #51 of 70 (7894 views)

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Re: [turnabout] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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And you didn't answer the question. What exactly do you want the USA to do about it?

Why do some people have such a hard time blaming the murder on the guy pulling the trigger?


Bennie García

Feb 8, 2011, 3:35 PM

Post #52 of 70 (7888 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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[reply Why do some people have such a hard time blaming the murder on the guy pulling the trigger?


No one is doing that. They are trying to limit the firepower of the assassins. Can you honestly claim that the level of violence would be the same without the current firepower possessed by the cartels?

Would the 70+ Central Americans slaughtered several months ago have died if the perpetrators were carrying knives and machetes instead of automatic weapons?

Everyone on the board recognizes what a super USA patriot you are dude, your country, right or wrong blah blah blah.But there are others that don't share that handicap and can think for themselves.


chinagringo


Feb 8, 2011, 4:59 PM

Post #53 of 70 (7877 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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That is certainly one of the most convenient "spins" that I have ever seen. But naturally, only Mexicans would see the financial opportunity that exists with the loose NRA controlled gun laws in the US. I suppose next that you are going to claim that the red-blooded American gun shop owners don't have a clue what is going on and that they are not making any extra profit off these straw buyer sales. But they have an excuse: "they are playing by the rules"!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Reefhound


Feb 8, 2011, 8:44 PM

Post #54 of 70 (7860 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Can you honestly claim that if it were harder to buy guns in the USA that the cartels would be content with knives and machetes and not seek out other sources?

This kind of firepower is in the hands of millions around the world who don't feel compelled by it to slaughter men, women, and children because of it. The inhumane ruthlessness in Mexico comes from the souls of the cartel members, not their guns. They aren't cutting off heads with guns.


Reefhound


Feb 8, 2011, 8:46 PM

Post #55 of 70 (7858 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Why don't you take a shot at it? What exactly do you want the USA to do about it?


Bennie García

Feb 8, 2011, 8:53 PM

Post #56 of 70 (7856 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Can you honestly claim that if it were harder to buy guns in the USA that the cartels would be content with knives and machetes and not seek out other sources?


No I do not claim that. But it would be more difficult for them to acquire the weapons.

Now try wrapping all 3 of your brain cells around this. The more difficult and expensive something is to acquire tends to make said items scarcer. The less firepower in the enemies hands weakens the enemy. If you make it harder for the cartels to possess superior weaponry than law enforcement it gives law enforcement an advantage.


salto_jorge

Feb 8, 2011, 10:06 PM

Post #57 of 70 (7848 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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I have been visiting relatives in Mexico for over 40 years.

No one that I know has ever blamed the USA for the tools that the cartels use.
The cartels are blamed for killing non-cartel members that are not ripping off the cartels.

Jobs are scarse and far between.
The cartels are employing the younger generation (7-12 y/o) , providing them with jobs.
These jobs range from watching, following and letting others know when strangers are in town and what others are doing.
Many kids have cell phones that they never used to have, some may have other things with them.

The next age group are the most dangerious and take care of problems for their boss, its best to avoid all contact with them.
They rule each other and their families by fear/terror, not everything is what it seems to be.

Many of the younger generation plus many in their 40's transport and use the product.
Some product is used locally thus it never makes it to the USA, most was never intended to.
You had better believe that product is consumed locally besides in the USA.

Blame the USA all you want, nothing is new, there are just more players involved.

The rich in Mexico always want to blame the USA, the poor and uneducated only want jobs in the USA and to get away from Mexico. If they are using product in Mexico, they will use it in the USA once they make it here.

Guns come from many countries, do not fool yourself, double check all the serial numbers, verify all the data.

Asking questions in Mexico can get one into trouble, locked up or even worse hit by a car or semi-tractor.


richmx2


Feb 9, 2011, 1:19 AM

Post #58 of 70 (7841 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Mexico does not export narcotics to the U.S.A. People do. But the people in the U.S.A. seem to expect the Mexican government to "do something", even if it means killing citizens without trial, and using the military for civil police duties. Is it too much to ask that the United States do the same... and, while we're at it, the U.S. should allow Mexican secret police agents the same courtesy shown to U.S. secret police officers (DEA, FBI, etc.) and build cases against those who are bringing violence across our borders from the North.

And, since the United States, or rather the individual states have a judicial system that is unable to prosecute gun dealers who violate Mexican laws, perhaps we should insist on indicting them in this country, and demanding their extradition.

Perhaps the Mexican Ambassador in Washington, like Carlos Pascual in this country, can start lecturing the House and Senate on the need to get serious about the corruption and impunity faced by your criminal class... the gun dealers and money launderers. And overseeing a Mexican spy center next to his embassy, as Pascaul does on Avenuda de la Reforma.


Just for starters...


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com

(This post was edited by richmx2 on Feb 9, 2011, 3:41 AM)


Rolly


Feb 9, 2011, 4:07 AM

Post #59 of 70 (7835 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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The next age group [teenagers] are the most dangerous and take care of problems for their boss, its best to avoid all contact with them. They rule each other and their families by fear/terror, not everything is what it seems to be.
One of my students is a serious fitness guy and competitive bike racer. He lives a couple of miles from me.
He used to run to my house and back home after our English lesions in the evenings.
Now he come only by car because he is afraid of the cholos that hang out in an area he has to pass through.
He says they are drugers.

Rolly Pirate


Reefhound


Feb 9, 2011, 5:22 AM

Post #60 of 70 (7828 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Now try wrapping all 3 of your brain cells around this. The more difficult and expensive something is to acquire tends to make said items scarcer. The less firepower in the enemies hands weakens the enemy. If you make it harder for the cartels to possess superior weaponry than law enforcement it gives law enforcement an advantage.

Now go back and substitute "drugs" for "guns" in the above statements and see if both of your brain cells can dig it.


chinagringo


Feb 9, 2011, 5:45 AM

Post #61 of 70 (7822 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Help me out - I cannot find the word "guns" in the quote.

What can the US do? How about starting off by re-instituting the assault rifle ban for a starter? How about clamping down on gun show sales? How about a concerted effort to reduce the numbers and variety of weapons available to the general public? Who knows, there might even be a side benefit for the US in a reduction of accidental or intentional shootings right in the US?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Bennie García

Feb 9, 2011, 5:46 AM

Post #62 of 70 (7822 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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In Reply To
Now try wrapping all 3 of your brain cells around this. The more difficult and expensive something is to acquire tends to make said items scarcer. The less firepower in the enemies hands weakens the enemy. If you make it harder for the cartels to possess superior weaponry than law enforcement it gives law enforcement an advantage.

Now go back and substitute "drugs" for "guns" in the above statements and see if both of your brain cells can dig it.


Limiting the supply of drugs only increases their price. The cartels will still get their money. More people will probably die due to failed shipments.

And of course we all know what a dangerous weapon a kilo brick of mota is. Tell us how many law enforcement officers were killed last year when shot up with an OD of pure Mexican Brown in an ambush on their convoy.


jengelbach

Feb 9, 2011, 8:40 AM

Post #63 of 70 (7791 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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The lesson of Prohibition says that making a profitable substance illegal will drive it into the hands of criminals.

Tobacco and liquor companies don't shoot each other.

The illegality of drugs in the U.S. is the direct cause of the rise of the Mexican drug cartels.

Whether the legalization of drugs will make the cartels go legit is anybody's guess. It would, however, drive down the prices and effect the formation of legal drug cultivators and distributors in the United States. The profit base of the cartels would be undercut, and thus their wealth and ability to recruit young people.

The war on drugs is a political issue, not one of public health. Addicts can get drugs, regardless of restrictive laws. The illegality of drugs is politically, and I'm sure financially, profitable to the politicians, just like any other issue that keeps the population scared and opens the door to kickbacks and bribes.

Increasing police presence and enforcing harsher penalties do not solve the "problem" — if one actually exists. The real problem is not the drugs — it's the violence. And the crooked politicians.

Legalization seems to me the best option.

==================
Jerry Engelbach
estudio@jerryengelbach.com

(This post was edited by jengelbach on Feb 9, 2011, 9:05 AM)


Reefhound


Feb 9, 2011, 11:51 AM

Post #64 of 70 (7764 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Help me out - I cannot find the word "guns" in the quote.

Neil, surely we can discuss the issue without playing games. I'm sure you know the words "weaponry" and "firepower" in hthe quote were referring to guns not knives. And hopefully you're astute enough to see I was making a conceptual analogy not a word substitution.


What can the US do? How about starting off by re-instituting the assault rifle ban for a starter? How about clamping down on gun show sales? How about a concerted effort to reduce the numbers and variety of weapons available to the general public? Who knows, there might even be a side benefit for the US in a reduction of accidental or intentional shootings right in the US?

I could be persuaded if it can be shown that it would be effective towards the goal and not just more restrictions to penalize the honest people while stopping nothing.


Reefhound


Feb 9, 2011, 11:53 AM

Post #65 of 70 (7764 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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And of course we all know what a dangerous weapon a kilo brick of mota is. Tell us how many law enforcement officers were killed last year when shot up with an OD of pure Mexican Brown in an ambush on their convoy.

How about the store clerks killed by addicts desperate to get their fix?


Reefhound


Feb 9, 2011, 11:54 AM

Post #66 of 70 (7762 views)

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Re: [jengelbach] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Increasing police presence and enforcing harsher penalties do not solve the "problem" — if one actually exists. The real problem is not the drugs — it's the violence. And the crooked politicians.

Legalization seems to me the best option.


Are you talking about guns?

Anyway, I think we've beaten the horse to death, doped him back to life, and beaten him to death again.


(This post was edited by Reefhound on Feb 9, 2011, 11:55 AM)


richmx2


Feb 9, 2011, 12:57 PM

Post #67 of 70 (7747 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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The idea that controlling firearms sales is somehow inconsistent with the idea of controlled narcotics sales is nonsense (and a rather desperate attempt to evade responsibility, coming as it does from the same people who say that U.S. gun sales are NOT a problem for Mexico).

Regulation is a fact of life, and a legitimate function of the state. The arguments for legalizing narcotics always include the assumption that sales of legal narcotics would be regulated and controlled. The degree of harm in individual use of narcotics is debatable (and rather irrelevant to this discussion). As it is, the harm caused to third parties is indirect. The degree of harm in individual use of firearms is relevant here, and the harm to third parties is direct. Like killing them.


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com


RickS


Feb 9, 2011, 1:16 PM

Post #68 of 70 (7741 views)

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Re: [turnabout] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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In general on this thread, what more possibly could be said that hasn't been said, what position not aired that has not already been put forth.....


Bennie García

Feb 9, 2011, 1:44 PM

Post #69 of 70 (7735 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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In Reply To
And of course we all know what a dangerous weapon a kilo brick of mota is. Tell us how many law enforcement officers were killed last year when shot up with an OD of pure Mexican Brown in an ambush on their convoy.

How about the store clerks killed by addicts desperate to get their fix?


Predictably lame response.


DavidMcL


Feb 9, 2011, 2:43 PM

Post #70 of 70 (7724 views)

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Re: [gpkgto] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Thread closed as there are now 69 responses - more than enough to express all the viewpoints more than once.

David
David McL
WebJefe

(This post was edited by DavidMcL on Feb 9, 2011, 2:45 PM)
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