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gpkgto

Jan 5, 2011, 1:27 PM

Post #1 of 70 (10435 views)

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How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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From NPR: How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico
http://www.npr.org/...ence?ft=1&f=1004



Reefhound


Jan 5, 2011, 2:06 PM

Post #2 of 70 (10402 views)

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Re: [gpkgto] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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More of these liberal lies and propaganda? Don't they ever get tired of twisting the truth? The "90% traced to U.S." lie they tried to palm off last year was based on twisting data that the ATF traced 5000 guns to the U.S. To now claim that 60,000 guns have been traced to the U.S. is over the top. Mexico has not even submitted that many for tracing. They can't even keep their lies straight.


DavidHF

Jan 5, 2011, 2:26 PM

Post #3 of 70 (10388 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Please tell us how it is that you alone know the "truth" about this? Similar data has been reported in the Mexican press too. Are they also part of the "liberal conspiracy?"


Bennie García

Jan 5, 2011, 2:34 PM

Post #4 of 70 (10384 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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He's a Faux News fan. The only source for the truth.


Reefhound


Jan 5, 2011, 3:00 PM

Post #5 of 70 (10378 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Cite this similar data. Links please.

I know their 60,000 guns traced to the U.S. number is a lie because they themselves said last year that ATF had traced 5000 guns to the U.S.


Reefhound


Jan 5, 2011, 3:04 PM

Post #6 of 70 (10376 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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BTW, how do these U.S. guns fuel crime in Mexico? Do they fire themselves? Do they have some paranormal powers that cause Mexicans to fire them? There are thousands times more guns in the U.S.


chinagringo


Jan 5, 2011, 3:32 PM

Post #7 of 70 (10367 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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USA uber alles!!!!!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



joaquinx


Jan 5, 2011, 5:55 PM

Post #8 of 70 (10341 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Quote
They can't even keep their lies straight.


But Reefhound can.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.


ken_in_dfw

Jan 5, 2011, 6:18 PM

Post #9 of 70 (10329 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Reefhound, would you please explain to me what this liberal-vs-conservative dynamic you've interjected into this conversation has to do with the price of tea in China? Because for the life of me, I can't make out what internal U.S. politics has to do with a flow of drugs going north and a flow of guns going south. Seems like a pretty straight-forward, apolitical transaction going on.


Quote
With information gleaned from increased Mexican firearm seizures and U.S. prosecutions, it is now possible to provide a better picture of some of the key questions about U.S. firearms trafficking to Mexico as well as some of the key trends and challenges. In May 2010, for example, the Mexican government, which has received training from ATF to better identify firearms, said that of the 75,000 firearms it seized in the last three years about 80 percent, or 60,000 firearms, came from the United States.18 Based on information from U.S. prosecutions, at least an estimated 4,976 U.S.-origin firearms were trafficked to Mexico during FY 2009, up more than 2,000 firearms from similar information for FY 2007.19 The top two firearms purchased in the United States and recovered in Mexico over the past three years were in order AK-47 type semi-automatic rifles and AR-15 semi-automatic rifle clones.20 The Romarms (Romanian manufactured) AK-47 rifle and the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle clone have been particularly popular.21 According to several ATF officials, individuals or groups regularly use straw purchasing as part of a scheme to traffic U.S. firearms to Mexico.22 Straw purchasers are individuals who say they are purchasing a firearm for themselves but the real purchaser is someone else. While new data continues to show Texas, Arizona, and California as major source states for firearms recovered in Mexico, ATF in California says if the analysis is narrowed to firearms purchased in the United States in the last three years California is not as much of a major source.23


Taken from U.S. Firearms Trafficking to Mexico: New Data and Insights Illuminate Key Trends and Challenges, Colby Goodman and Michel Marizco, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Mexico Institute and the University of San Diego, Trans-Border Institute, Sept. 2010, pp. 4-5, my emphasis added.

But, please, don't let the facts get in the way of a good half-cocked rant.


Reefhound


Jan 5, 2011, 7:22 PM

Post #10 of 70 (10311 views)

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Re: [ken_in_dfw] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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I'm not the one that starts these kinds of topics.


Reefhound


Jan 5, 2011, 7:31 PM

Post #11 of 70 (10304 views)

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Re: [ken_in_dfw] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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What's political is when a group manipulates the numbers in a misleading way. I'm not the one starting threads by posting links to biased and misleading "studies" and reports.

Here is what Calderon actually said in his May speech before the U.S. Congress.

Calderon said, "Just to give you an idea, we have seized 75,000 guns and assault weapons in Mexico in the past three years, and more than 80 percent of those we have been able to trace came from the United States," Calderon told Congress.

Not 80% of confiscated weapons came from the U.S. but 80% of those that were able to be traced. Only a fraction were able to be traced, and that number was previously given at 5000 by ATF. Which is not surprising since the U.S. requires serial numbers on all weapons manufactured in the U.S. and records all sales, whereas other sources like Russia and China do not.

Now the real question is do people here have the intellect to understand that distinction in tracing and see how the numbers are being misrepresented? Or is glossing over the accuracy of data ok so long as the conclusions fit your agenda?


Reefhound


Jan 5, 2011, 7:37 PM

Post #12 of 70 (10300 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Oh, and here is a link to his actual testimony to Congress, and you'll note it is NPR (same as the link in the first post) not Fox News.

Anyone with an IQ of over 50 should be able to easily see how what he actually said was twisted and misrepresented to arrive at an inflated number.


Bennie García

Jan 5, 2011, 8:14 PM

Post #13 of 70 (10289 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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In Reply To
Not 80% of confiscated weapons came from the U.S. but 80% of those that were able to be traced. Only a fraction were able to be traced, and that number was previously given at 5000 by ATF. Which is not surprising since the U.S. requires serial numbers on all weapons manufactured in the U.S. and records all sales, whereas other sources like Russia and China do not.

Now the real question is do people here have the intellect to understand that distinction in tracing and see how the numbers are being misrepresented? Or is glossing over the accuracy of data ok so long as the conclusions fit your agenda?


Intellect? Guess what Einstein? Russsian and Chinese weapons DO have serial numbers so it looks like you ain't all that bright after all.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=26665


e. Serial numbers.
Chinese serial numbers are generally numeric, except for the first year at factory 26 where two styles of serial numbering were used.

- Russian style (early 1956). While under Russian supervision, it was only natural the Russian advisors would implement the Russian style of serial numbering on the Chinese built SKS. They basically followed the Russian style but instead of using 2 cyrillic letters followed by 4 numbers, they used 1 alfa letter followed by 4 numbers. On a few rare occasions an unrecognizable symbol was observed in place of the alfa letter.
This early first year production is better known as Sino-Soviet SKS.
eg: A1234 /26\

- Chinese style. Sometime in the latter part of 1956, the style was switched to the Chinese. This led me to believe the Russian Advisors didn't stay in China for very long. The serial number contained 5 to 6 numbers. Every year thereafter it began at the next million, eventually to 24 million at factory 26. I have seen higher at other factories.
eg: 12345 /26\ to /26\***24000000

- Partial serial numbers located on parts:
Early and mid production: On carrier, bolt, top cover, mag, trigger guard and buttstock.
Late production: On carrier and bolt.


And the law in Russia and China requires all weapons sales to be registered which again disproves your phony "no serial number" claim. So much for your intellectual capabilities.


(This post was edited by Bennie García on Jan 5, 2011, 8:54 PM)


DavidMcL


Jan 5, 2011, 11:50 PM

Post #14 of 70 (10261 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Things are getting a touch too personal in this thread. Please remember that on the MXC forums, postings that agress the poster personally are not acceptable.

David
David McL
WebJefe


Reefhound


Jan 6, 2011, 7:10 AM

Post #15 of 70 (10236 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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ATF doesn't have access to Chinese and Russian databases. Furthermore, I doubt Mexico sends weapons to ATF for tracing that are obviously Chinese or Russian sourced. Does anyone really think Mexico sends all the confiscated weaponry to the U.S.?

This little diversion doesn't change the fact that I am right on the statistics, right that Calderon's actual statements have been distorted by certain groups to grossly inflate the numbers, right that Calderon said 80% of all traceable confiscated weapons not 80% of all confiscated weapons, right that ATF has traced 5000 maybe 6000 weapons to the U.S. not 60,000.

I know that must really chap the hide of some but the fact remains that the link in the first post presented a false number based on either a misinterpretation or a deliberate misrepresentation of what Calderon actually said.


Bennie García

Jan 6, 2011, 7:38 AM

Post #16 of 70 (10226 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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In Reply To
ATF doesn't have access to Chinese and Russian databases. Furthermore, I doubt Mexico sends weapons to ATF for tracing that are obviously Chinese or Russian sourced. Does anyone really think Mexico sends all the confiscated weaponry to the U.S.?

This little diversion doesn't change the fact that I am right on the statistics, right that Calderon's actual statements have been distorted by certain groups to grossly inflate the numbers, right that Calderon said 80% of all traceable confiscated weapons not 80% of all confiscated weapons, right that ATF has traced 5000 maybe 6000 weapons to the U.S. not 60,000.

I know that must really chap the hide of some but the fact remains that the link in the first post presented a false number based on either a misinterpretation or a deliberate misrepresentation of what Calderon actually said.


Backpedal all you want. You said that neither Russian nor Chinese weapons have serial numbers and aren't registered. Now you say the ATF has no access to their data bases. According to you, they wouldn't need or have databases. Your first statement was unequivocally false. Now you are making another wild claim without any proof.

I get the impression you feel free to fabricate "facts" to suit your agenda.

As far as your argument that the statistics are being manipulated you don't apply objective criteria to the weapons that have not been traced. An objective observer would first find out why they haven't been traced. It could be that they lack the resources to handle the volume of weapons but that is obviously something that doesn't fit into your narrow way of thinking.

I have already proved your first claim as false. You fail to accept you are in error and continue to spin things in your favor. One can't argue with that kind of intellectual dishonesty. You have no credibility.


Bennie García

Jan 6, 2011, 8:45 AM

Post #17 of 70 (10204 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Here is something that may substantiate my statement on why not all weapons have been traced. (Note there is a difference between untraceable weapons and weapons that have yet to be traced. Something an objective analysis would consider before reaching a conclusion.)

"ATF: New accord with Mexico will boost gun traces
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101006/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_weapons_trafficking ^

Posted on 07/10/2010 07:25:14 a.m. by Red in Blue PA

MEXICO CITY – U.S. and Mexican officials are just now fully employing a gun-tracing program touted as a key deterrent to weapons-smuggling, nearly three years after it was first announced in Mexico and weeks after an inspector general's preliminary report called it underused and unsuccessful.

Not enough Mexican investigators had been trained on or had access to the electronic database designed to trace illegally seized weapons to origins in the U.S., a top official at Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Wednesday.

"It doesn't mean the system is not working. It's not working as well as it can," said ATF deputy director Kenneth Melson. "The information was being submitted by people who didn't know how to trace guns."

He and Mexico Attorney General Arturo Chavez Chavez signed a memorandum of understanding on Tuesday that will increase to 30 a month the number of people trained to use the program, known as eTrace, an electronic database that can trace the manufacture, import, sale and ownership of guns.

It will also expand access to eTrace to the Attorney General's intelligence and data-gathering divisions across Mexico.

About 20 people have been trained to use eTrace in Mexico. U.S. and Mexican officials announced in January 2008 that the system would be introduced in Mexico, but it was not implemented in Spanish until last December."



stevebrtx

Jan 6, 2011, 8:52 AM

Post #18 of 70 (10198 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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I'm from Texas and proud of almost everything about it except this. If even half a dozen are traced back to TX, it's inexcusable, there is no justification for allowing this to happen - none.


Rolly


Jan 6, 2011, 9:46 AM

Post #19 of 70 (10186 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Well, Steve, you might want to read this report.

Included in the story is this:
The U.S. ATFE contends Houston is the No. 1 spot of origin for weapons that have been traced from Mexican organized crime scenes back to the United States.



Rolly Pirate


Reefhound


Jan 6, 2011, 11:07 AM

Post #20 of 70 (10171 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Here is something that may substantiate my statement on why not all weapons have been traced. (Note there is a difference between untraceable weapons and weapons that have yet to be traced. Something an objective analysis would consider before reaching a conclusion.)

If you can distinguish between the meanings of untraceable and yet to be traced, then surely you can distinguish between 80% of those that can be traced and 80% of those confiscated. Which was my FIRST claim (not serial numbers) and something that YOU have failed to accept so Pot... Kettle... Black. When you start acknowledging my points I'll start acknowledging your points.

While we're distinguishing meanings, let's look closer at one of the statements you quoted.

Not enough Mexican investigators had been trained on or had access to the electronic database designed to trace illegally seized weapons to origins in the U.S.

Interesting. First of all, apparently the weapons aren't actually being sent to the U.S. and traced by ATF but Mexicans themselves are doing the tracing? That would make the results quite simple to manipulate for political purposes to put the responsibility on the U.S. by only reporting the ones that trace back to the U.S. But of course, we know Mexican agencies could never be that corrupt. Second, was that just an awkward statement or did they really mean the system is "designed to trace illegally seized weapons to origins in the U.S."? Not to simply trace weapons to any whatever origin but to "origins in the U.S."? If that is indeed the case, is it any wonder that a system designed to trace weapons to the U.S. primarily traced weapons to the U.S.?



Reefhound


Jan 6, 2011, 11:08 AM

Post #21 of 70 (10170 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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"I'm from Texas and proud of almost everything about it except this. If even half a dozen are traced back to TX, it's inexcusable, there is no justification for allowing this to happen - none."

How would you propose to stop it?


Bennie García

Jan 6, 2011, 11:18 AM

Post #22 of 70 (10167 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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How about addressing the FACT that you have made up such gems such as no serial numbers and no registration required on Russian and Chinese weapons?

Then you might get taken seriously instead of being thought of as a fool.


Reefhound


Jan 6, 2011, 11:26 AM

Post #23 of 70 (10163 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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How about addressing the FACT that Calderon said 80% of confiscated weapons that were able to be traced came from the U.S. not that 80% of all weapons confiscated came from the U.S.? That was the first claim, made in the first post, without which none of the other posts would have existed.

BTW, your "source" for the serial number data is just a post in another discussion group, nothing official.


Bennie García

Jan 6, 2011, 11:40 AM

Post #24 of 70 (10154 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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Yeah but I give sources, you just pull stuff out of your....air.

But if you don't believe the source then go ahead and do some research. There are lots of gun owner sites and others that will prove what I posted to be true and show your ridiculous statements to be the complete fabrication that they are.

As far as the Calderón quote, first cite the exact quote and not a paraphrase from a news article.. Then we can discuss it.


Reefhound


Jan 6, 2011, 11:50 AM

Post #25 of 70 (10147 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] How Thousands Of U.S. Guns Fuel Crime In Mexico

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The exact quote by Calderon, in fact the text of his testimony to Congress, was given in my NPR link earlier. I also provided that quote.

I will acknowledge my error in believing that weapons manufactured in china and Russia were without serial numbers. However, that doesn't change my point that the claim that 60,000 weapons have been traced to the U.S. is blatantly false, that 80% of the 6000 that were able to be traced (that is what, 4800) were traced to the U.S.

And answer two questions for me, please.

Do you believe that China and Russia AND yes even the U.S. export weapons clandestinely to guerillas in certain parts of the world to fight proxy wars and stir up revolution?

If yes, do you believe they export those weapons with serial numbers intact that would allow them to be traced back to origin?
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