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esperanza

Nov 5, 2010, 11:41 PM

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Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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This has been a frightening evening in Morelia. The title of this post is the headline above the following article, published tonight in the online edition of the newspaper Quadratín.
___________________________________________________________

PATZCUARO, Mich., 5 de noviembre de 2010.-Caos, temor y desconcierto se registró desde la tarde de este viernes hasta la medianoche, luego de los zafarranchos que se registraron en la desviación a Tzurumútaro y en la gasolinera ubicada entre Pátzcuaro y Cuanajo, en las inmediaciones del kilómetro 46 de la autopista.
A los pocos minutos de las escaramuzas, en Morelia se registraron nuevas acciones violentas que incluyeron los cierres de las cinco entradas a la ciudad, lo que provocó que miles de vehículos quedaran varados en filas de hasta 20 kilómetros.
El caos y desconcierto de los viajeros varados, poco a poco se tornó en temor, al conocer muchos de ellos vía teléfono celular, que Morelia se encontraba prácticamente sitiada y se registraban disturbios en diferentes puntos de la capital.
Todo inició al filo de las 18:00 horas, cuando elementos de la Policía Federal, penetraron al restaurante Casa del Angel, que se ubica en el tramo Pátzcuaro-Tzurumútaro, donde se registró la primera escaramuza, cuando trataron de interceptar a un grupo de individuos los que se enfrentaron a tiros con los policías.
Durante la escaramuza, fueron detenidas dos personas que después, mediante un comunicado oficial se conoció que llevan por nombre Luis Fernando Peña Arciga y Emmanuel Sánchez Castillo.
A los pocos minutos de la detención de estos individuos que fueron trasladados a Morelia, un grupo de supuestos sicarios perpetró un ataque contra la estación de gasolina que se ubica a la altura del kilómetro 46 de la autopista Pátzcuaro-Morelia, donde una de las bombas despachadoras se incendió y una mujer que tripulaba una camioneta pick up, resultó herida por las balas.
Al darse la voz de alerta arribaron a la estación de gasolina, personal de la Policía Federal, División Caminos, así como elementos de Protección Civil de Pátzcuaro, Cruz Roja de Pátzcuaro y de Quiroga y elementos del cuerpo de bomberos los que sofocaron el fuego y ayudaron a la lesionada a la que trasladaron a recibir atención médica.
Intempestivamente, el cordón de seguridad se disolvió y las patrullas policiales abandonaron el lugar, conociéndose posteriormente que en Morelia seguían las hostilidades, mediante varios vehículos incendiados tanto en las salidas de la ciudad, como en algunos puntos de la mancha urbana.
El cierre de las arterias, ocasionó en que en la autopista Pátzcuaro-Morelia, la fila varada se prolongara por más de 20 kilómetros, entre la desviación a Umécuaro y la entrada a Tiripetío.
Varios de los conductores buscaron las brechas alternas para arribar a Morelia, muchos de ellos lograron su objetivo por las brechas que conducen a Atécuaro para penetrar a la capital michoacana por Colinas del Sur
El resto, permaneció hasta la medianoche, cuando paulatinamente se fue abriendo el paso a la circulación.

Quadratín also published the following, urging all Morelia residents to remain in their homes tonight:
___________________________________________________________________

MORELIA, Mich., 5 de noviembre del 2010.- Bajo la exclamación ¡esto es una situación extraordinaria, nunca se había suscitado algo de este tamaño¡ el titular de Protección Civil y Bomberos de la capital del estado de Michoacán, Ramón Ramírez López, explicó la noche de este viernes que la dependencia atendió tres incidentes importantes; el primero a la salida a Quiroga donde hubo cinco vehículos incendiados y una persona lesionado por proyectil de arma de fuego.
A la salida a Charo en la Estación Uno, hubo un microbús incendiado. Y el último, un vehículo tipo Jeep que fue incendiado en las inmediaciones de un centro comercial en la ciudad moreliana.
En entrevista, Ramón Ramírez, titular de Protección Civil del municipio, informó que Protección civil del estado, atiende una contingencia a la salida al municipio de Salamanca, Guanajuato.
Ante las contingencias antes mencionadas, los principales accesos a Morelia están bloqueados por vehículos, además de problemas en los municipios de Pátzcuaro y Cuitzeo.
Ramón Ramírez, resaltó que “por instrucciones del edil Fausto Vallejo Figueroa existe una coordinación total con los cuerpos de emergencia del estado”, apuntó.
Por último, el funcionario municipal, pidió a la ciudadanía “mantener la calma y si no tuviera que salir a la calle, mejor se vayan a sus domicilios, por ello, lo más importante es salvaguardar la vida y los bienes de nosotros como personas.

And the following, from the same source:
__________________________________________________________________

MORELIA, Mich., 5 de noviembre de 2010.- Fuentes del gobierno de Michoacán reconocieron que la ciudad de Morelia se encuentra prácticamente estrangulada en sus principales vías de acceso, derivado de una reacción en cadena de grupos armados.
Las autoridades consultadas dijeron que hasta las 21 horas siguen bloqueados los tramos carreteros que comunican a la capital con Pátzcuaro, Quiroga, Salamanca, Mil Cumbres y Charo.
También señalaron que han sido incendiados por lo menos cinco automotores, entre ellos un autobús de pasajeros, una pipa y un tráiler.
Resaltaron que el Ejército Mexicano, la Policía Federal y corporaciones estatales trabajan de manera coordinada para resolver la crisis que se presenta la noche de este viernes en Morelia y sus accesos principales.
Las mismas fuentes del gobierno de Michoacán indicaron que de acuerdo con la información extraoficial de que disponen, la reacción de los grupos armados obedece a una represalia por la supuesta captura del líder de alguna organización criminal, registrada en las inmediaciones de Pátzcuaro.
Consultadas por Quadratín, las autoridades estatales dijeron que el operativo policial federal, se produjo en la región Pátzcuaro y al parecer logró atrapar a alguno de los presuntos mandos importantes de las organizaciones criminales.
Por su parte, Carlos Mandujano Vázquez, director de Protección Civil estatal afirmó que al momento y por seguridad de los paramédicos, los vehículos de emergencia han salido de sus bases de forma dosificada, por lo que sólo se han sofocado los incendios de dos unidades, específicamente en las salidas a Salamanca y Quiroga.
___________________________________________________________________________

It will be interesting to see what tomorrow brings. For tonight, that's the latest.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com










Anonimo

Nov 6, 2010, 4:57 AM

Post #2 of 33 (6429 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Thank you for the consolidated reports on last evening's attacks. Some of the places mentioned are all too familiar to us.

Stay safe, and keep us informed.



Saludos,
Anonimo


wearechange

Nov 6, 2010, 9:30 AM

Post #3 of 33 (6384 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Any first had accounts of the events? What is the atmosphere like at the moment? This is very unfortunate for the people of Michoacan. No rules of engagement on the part of the criminals.


chinagringo


Nov 6, 2010, 10:38 AM

Post #4 of 33 (6358 views)

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Re: [wearechange] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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I continue to be amazed by the apparent precision with which La Familia Cartel seems to follow after the arrest of one or more of their higher ups! Going back over a year, the arrest of one such higher up led to attacks in 7 or 8 various locations and now something that started in Patzcuaro results in chaos in Morelia. To a casual observer, it seems like they have a Plan A or B in place in such an event. I have to believe that these are designed to cause fear either through the shear magnitude or simply the chaos which tends to follow.

Having used that particular PEMEX station on the outskirts of Patzcuaro numerous times, it brings it home just how easy it would be to be in the wrong place at the wrong time!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



judithnpups


Nov 6, 2010, 12:07 PM

Post #5 of 33 (6329 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Love the Ostrich Gringo motto as expressed by the Chapala Police Chief:
“In Mexican culture, the less we identify problems, the more we live in peace.”

And for those who like to compare what's happening in Mexico to street crime in Los Angeles or Detroit, keep in mind that this is organized crime at work, armed with expensive SUV's and AK47's. And as the afore-mentioned articles in Quadratin state, this crime is very well organized.

Judith in Morelia


chinagringo


Nov 8, 2010, 8:37 AM

Post #6 of 33 (6139 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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http://www.oem.com.mx/...a/notas/n1845866.htm

From the above article, it was reported that there was a rash of hotel cancellations, which could be expected. On a greater scale the final day competition of the 2010 FIM International Six Days Enduro (ISDE)(World Motorcycle Event) was cancelled due to security concerns. Having read previous articles on this event, it was years in the planning and previously the Australian team had pulled out over exactly this type of situation. They did manage to get five days of excellent competition in before the cancellation. I hope this cancellation does not constrain Mexico from future consideration and the opportunity to showcase the Country and its people.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



esperanza

Nov 8, 2010, 9:09 AM

Post #7 of 33 (6127 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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On a personal but related note, our expected guest for the week, who was due to fly from California and arrive in Morelia last night, canceled her trip. This is the first time she has ever planned to come to the interior and the trip has been months in the planning.

On the other hand, life seems to have returned to normal--whatever normal is, these days--here in the capital. We're going downtown in just a little while to pick up tickets for the FIMM--the Festival Internacional de Música de Morelia, which kicks off on Thursday (Nov. 11) with a concert at Teatro Morelos by world-renowned Anne-Sophie Mütter on violin and Lynn Harrell on cello. Our friend from the DF arrives on Sunday, to attend a concert of the acclaimed Camerata Salzburgo.

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Peter


Nov 8, 2010, 9:24 AM

Post #8 of 33 (6124 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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I hope this cancellation does not constrain Mexico from future consideration and the opportunity to showcase the Country and its people.

Although Morelia is typically fairly peaceful we have now had a couple incidences that tarnish its desireability to host some big world-class events.

I don't recall the name right off but there were the grand masters chess events held here in Morelia that had been dubbed as the Wimbledon of Chess but has moved on to other locations after the September 15, 2008 double grenade attack.

That attack was unique in that it target crowds of innocent bystanders rather than participants in the Drug War. Though it was not the first skirmish in that Drug War its nature and scope was pretty much the kick-off event that brought Mexico's Drug War violence to national and international attention.

As for the city's people being frightened over last Friday's events most in the city were largely unaware anything this massive was afoot until after it had occurred. Thousands of stranded motorists waiting to pass through Morelia were stuck for several hours on the five major highways that enter the city.

There is nothing like Prohibition to create a rich and powerful outlaw or rebel faction.


esperanza

Nov 8, 2010, 9:46 AM

Post #9 of 33 (6113 views)

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Re: [Peter] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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As for the city's people being frightened over last Friday's events most in the city were largely unaware anything this massive was afoot until after it had occurred. Thousands of stranded motorists waiting to pass through Morelia were stuck for several hours on the five major highways that enter the city.


The above was just one of the strange manifestations of Friday evening's events. NO news of the highway blockages, the commandeered and burning vehicles, etc., was reported until just before 9PM, when Ch. 21 (SMRTV) began coverage with just a puzzled sentence about 'unconfirmed' problems at one or another of the various entry/exit points of the city. Little by little, word filtered in to the station about what was really going on. Meantime, those involved at each of the five entry/exit points were clueless.

Friends of ours were involved in the massive traffic pileup on the Morelia/Pátzcuaro highway; they had no inkling why the traffic was backed up on the road for about 20 kilometers (12 miles) heading toward Morelia, and why they were not moving toward home. Fortunately they had a cellular phone with them and called me at about 10PM; equally fortunately, news had begun to be publicized and I could give them at least a reason for the incredible amount of standstill traffic.

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chinagringo


Nov 8, 2010, 10:38 AM

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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http://gruporeforma.reforma.com/...0&EstadoSelecc=1

In cruising around the Internet for news sites willing to publish actual events, I ran across the above link. I am guessing that this site was set up for the very volatile border areas, where the cartels have been somewhat effective in controlling the news as a means to get out timely warnings. Note that it is broken down by States and then one has the option of picking a city within the State. Again guessing that these feeds are coming from TWITTER and I have seen posts which seem to be coming from Government Agencies in certain areas. Naturally, rumors will abound but I have seen very specific reports giving real time locations.

With the violent incidents increasing in size and geographic locations, I would think such an option would be considered for more areas of Mexico.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Brian

Nov 8, 2010, 10:52 AM

Post #11 of 33 (6095 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Sometimes, especially in matters of current events in Mexico, neither the newspapers nor the broadcast media are the best place to quickly find out what is happening. Fifteen years ago, I remember reading posts on one of my favorite usenet newsgroups "alt.mexico". Someone who was staying at a hotel near the zocalo in San Cristobal de Las Casas breathlessly wrote that there were armed and masked men running around and proclaiming that the revolution had begun. He kept us posted about the events as he witnessed them and it was many hours before the mainstream media picked up the proclamations of Subcommander Marcos and his Zapatista army. Similarly, there were people in Morelia who used their laptops and cellphones to start, and then confirm, the rumors about the blockades. Twitter is the antidote to a Mexican news blockage such is happening in the state of Tamaulipas where the papers are unable to report important news to the public.

The next time someone on this list gets wind of some breaking news, they can enter a keyword i.e. Morelia into the Twitter search box and they will find a constantly updated list of short postings by people who are eyewitnesses. Twitter is somewhat self-policing for accuracy. Any fallacious information is usually quickly rebutted.


(This post was edited by Brian on Nov 8, 2010, 10:58 AM)


norteño

Nov 8, 2010, 11:54 AM

Post #12 of 33 (6073 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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In Reply To
http://gruporeforma.reforma.com/...0&EstadoSelecc=1

In cruising around the Internet for news sites willing to publish actual events, I ran across the above link. I am guessing that this site was set up for the very volatile border areas, where the cartels have been somewhat effective in controlling the news as a means to get out timely warnings. Note that it is broken down by States and then one has the option of picking a city within the State. Again guessing that these feeds are coming from TWITTER and I have seen posts which seem to be coming from Government Agencies in certain areas. Naturally, rumors will abound but I have seen very specific reports giving real time locations.

With the violent incidents increasing in size and geographic locations, I would think such an option would be considered for more areas of Mexico.

The postings on that site are by computer, and the great defect of the site is that the user names are not password-protected. You could have followed the events in Morelia as reported at the moment by private citizens on:

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23morelia

You can use the hash tag for any city where unrest is being reported at the moment, or the link below for breaking crime news around the country:

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23MexicoRojo


(This post was edited by Rolly on Nov 8, 2010, 12:35 PM)


Reefhound


Nov 8, 2010, 12:18 PM

Post #13 of 33 (6065 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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The above was just one of the strange manifestations of Friday evening's events. NO news of the highway blockages, the commandeered and burning vehicles, etc., was reported until just before 9PM, when Ch. 21 (SMRTV) began coverage with just a puzzled sentence about 'unconfirmed' problems at one or another of the various entry/exit points of the city. Little by little, word filtered in to the station about what was really going on. Meantime, those involved at each of the five entry/exit points were clueless.

Unfortunately, as the rest of the world learns how the media is very slow to report on events if at all, it becomes even more fearful of Mexico. We live in a world that has grown accustomed to nearly instantaneous if not live news reporting. This kind of news blackout, whether due to incompetence or apathy or cartel threats, amplifies the concerns far beyond the actual risks. People realize that not only is there the possibility of something happening, but that if it does they will not be able to find out what is going on and what they need to do about it. It just instills the image of anarchy.


esperanza

Nov 8, 2010, 3:52 PM

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Re: [Reefhound] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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This kind of news blackout, whether due to incompetence or apathy or cartel threats, amplifies the concerns far beyond the actual risks.


Most area people who have a good grasp of local goings-on in Morelia offer a different explanation than the three you mention for slow reporting--at least in this instance. I don't feel at liberty to discuss it here, but IMHO they are correct.

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Reefhound


Nov 8, 2010, 6:03 PM

Post #15 of 33 (5986 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Maybe they are corrupt as well. My point didn't have to do with the why because outsiders don't really know or understand the why of it, they just see the net result.


Anonimo

Nov 9, 2010, 2:06 AM

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Esperanza; did you ever determine what the explosions were near your house?



Saludos,
Anonimo


esperanza

Nov 9, 2010, 10:03 AM

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Re: [Anonimo] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Anónimo, I just re-read my original post, the only one I have made on this thread. There is no mention of explosions.

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jrpierce


Nov 10, 2010, 10:31 AM

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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I'm a bit late to this party, but wanted to add my impressions. While the events of last Friday were unsettling to say the least, I saw no evidence of "chaos" in Morelia. My wife and I were returning to Morelia from Patzcuaro with family visiting from the US. As we neared Morelia there was a substantial back-up of traffic and lots of federal and state police vehicles. We wondered why the traffic was so bad and figured it was either an accident or a manifestación. When we finally were able to turn onto the city streets near the Zoo, traffic was heavy but orderly. We drove through much of Centro and there were no groups of people on the streets nor any other "chaos" nor "riots." We arrived at our house in Centro without incident. Usually, if anything of note is going on in Centro we can hear it from our house, and we didn't hear anything except the usual street noise--it seemed to be a normal night.

So far as I know the one incident that actually occurred inside Morelia was at the parking lot of the Mega store near Las Ame
ricas. A grenade was set off at an empty car in the lot. I spoke with someone who was there who found it frightening, but no one was hurt--and interestingly they did target an empty car. As for the other incidents, blocking roads with burning cars is something that rioters do in many areas of the world and generally people are inconvenienced--not hurt--which seems to be the case here.

We attended a party with a number of expats and Mexicans the next evening, and no one seemed unduly shaken by the events. I heard that parents were keeping their kids home that Saturday evening, but since then I think everything has returned to normal.

The criminals who run cartels like La Familia are brutal and well organized and well financed, and they aim to retain power by sowing fear. Their organizational skills are rather impressive as demonstrated by this situation. But I worry that people reading about this will conclude Morelia and Patzcuaro are war zones with honest citizens hunkered down in bunkers and in fear of going out on the streets. Of course that isn't the case. I think last Friday was largely saber-rattling, and doesn't change the fact that Morelia and Patzcuaro are great places to live and to visit. I think average citizens have little to fear around town--much less than in many other cities in the world. Last Sunday the streets were full of folks enjoying Morelia and life was, as usual, great. I continue to encourage friends and family to visit us here in Morelia.



esperanza

Nov 10, 2010, 6:35 PM

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Re: [jrpierce] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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While the events of last Friday were unsettling to say the least, I saw no evidence of "chaos" in Morelia.

Others' experiences were decidedly different from yours. The words 'chaos and fear in Morelia' were a direct quote of the headline over the newspaper article I posted, which included many pictures showing chaos at the five entry/exit points of the city.

Yes, you are correct: vehicles are often burned in other countries as a way of protesting or otherwise making a point. Nonetheless, this has not until recently been the case in Mexico--and it has not previously been done in Morelia. It's my opinion that had this business on Friday night been an isolated incident, the popular reaction would not have been 'chaos and fear'. Those were reactions to the accumulation and escalation of violence in many parts of Mexico, including in Michoacán. Many Mexican friends have said to me, "This is not my Mexico. I don't know where all this will end, and my family does not know what to do next to stay safe."

Our household did not experience 'chaos and fear' on Friday night, but we certainly experienced a degree of nervousness, especially when we heard numerous gunshots within range of our house and listened to the news reports of the vehicle that was incinerated (the reports we heard were that a Molotov cocktail was used, not a grenade) at the Mega shopping center in one of Morelia's most upscale neighborhoods.

All too often, expatriates generalize from their personal experience to a larger experience not their own. Frequently it appears that their attitude is, "If I didn't see it happen, then it didn't happen." JRPierce, I am not saying this is your attitude, but it's an attitude that I do see quite often on this board.

We expected ten Mexican friends ranging in age from 14 to 65 to visit our home on Saturday evening; they all canceled because they were afraid to travel from their homes around and near Lake Pátzcuaro.

Our first-time guest from California, who was expected to arrive on Sunday evening, elected to cancel her year-in-the-planning trip to Morelia because of the Friday events--in spite of our encouragement to come on down.

As always, YMMV. Just remember that yours is not the only mileage.




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Peter


Nov 10, 2010, 7:33 PM

Post #20 of 33 (5675 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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--in spite of our encouragement to come on down.


Well, you and JRPierce seem to agree that it does not warrant telling people to stay away.

Last Saturday, the day after this event, I was upstairs expecting to see the Catedral doing its Saturday lighting ceremony with fireworks and all but the lights came up all at once with no fanfare, no fireworks, nada. A friend suggested that may have been a response to the previous day's Fear and Loathing in Morelia.

My apologies to the late Dr. Hunter S. Thompson.


esperanza

Nov 10, 2010, 9:28 PM

Post #21 of 33 (5656 views)

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Re: [Peter] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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The fireworks portion of the cathedral lighting ceremony was moved out of downtown several months ago. This change was due to sparks burning the Cathedral dome.

The fireworks went forward as currently scheduled, at the Bandera Monumental in Sta. María, at 10PM. I can (and did) see the fireworks this past Saturday from a window at our home, below the flag site.

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Peter


Nov 10, 2010, 9:49 PM

Post #22 of 33 (5654 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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I was told something like that about the fireworks downtown a couple months ago. But after an absence and until last Saturday I had watched the firworks display at the Catedral for the past three weeks in a row.

I have a great view of Morelia's skyline at the new house - it's still being finished but I spend nearly every Saturday there. I have not seen the fireworks at Santa Maria but usually discontinue my watch and retire inside before 10pm. Now that it is completely dark before 7:30 and getting earlier I hope they change the hour.

This past Saturday the Catedral's light were brought up all at once and without ceremony. Even for that time without fireworks recently the lights on Saturday has been brought up in stages, one tower at a time. My first thoughts were that someone forgot what day it was and brought the light up like any other day of the week. Last Saturday they came on unusually early and long before San Jose's, which is unusual.


robt65

Nov 14, 2010, 6:51 PM

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Re: [judithnpups] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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Hello judithnpups,

You said "And for those who like to compare what's happening in Mexico to street crime in Los Angeles or Detroit, keep in mind that this is organized crime at work, armed with expensive SUV's and AK47's".

AS was the deadly hit of the Mafioso Crime Boss in Montreal, Canada this past week. http://fivefamiliesnyc.blogspot.com/...ingle-shot-from.html

Then again in San Antonio, TX on the 9th of November . . . . . . http://www.kens5.com/...-gang-107002654.html

and many more recent her if you take the time to read then . . . . . http://www.topix.com/forum/news/mafia

Mexico is certainly not the only country with such daily problems and well planned attacks.

robt65





(This post was edited by Rolly on Nov 14, 2010, 7:15 PM)


Reefhound


Nov 14, 2010, 7:27 PM

Post #24 of 33 (5440 views)

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Re: [robt65] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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And you honestly see any remote comparison in scale or degree? The Canadian case was a single sniper shot with no bystander casualties. There was no attack at all in San Antonio, that was police rounding up a dozen suspected gang members and finding weapons in their houses.


robt65

Nov 15, 2010, 3:46 AM

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Re: [Reefhound] Chaos and Fear in Morelia, Friday November 5, 2010

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In degree . . . . yes , in scale some times yes, well planned with precision and executed (pardon he pun) . . . . you bet!

You miss my point reefhound. The cause is only semantics, the end results is the same, no matter the "cause". Colombia is a good example if you wish to stay with narcotics as the "cause" but the results are the same when the "cause is religion", i.e. Afghanistan, the Philippines, Myanmar, Chile during earlier regimes of politics and on and on. War is war, dead is dead. The cause is irrelevant, even if you are part of the collateral damage.

Dead is Dead reefhound . . .. there are no re-runs. Especially if you are the one with the black bean. Collatteral damage in many cases is also great. Like San Antonio reefhound the same thing is done here in Mexico. Sometimes with success and sometimes not. Ask Rolly about house inspections.

Robert
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