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Hound Dog

Sep 18, 2010, 8:40 PM

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Whut We Have Heah is a Failuah to C´ommuncate*

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* Cool Hand Luke (1967)

All is Perception*

* Hound Dog (2010)

The event I wish to discuss took place in Punta Gorda, Belize as reported by CNN Intrnational datelined September 17, 2010. That may not seem, on the surface, to concern Mexico but the event concerns U.S. expats and Maya Villagers in the Toledo region of Belize which is an area on a parallel with the Peten (Tikal) in Guatemala and Chiapas in Mexico roughly, a straight line from around Comitan de Dominguez in the Chiapas Highlands some two hours from San Cristóbal de Las Casas. All of this territory is heavily populated by Mayan villagers and what occurred near Punta Gorda is thus very applicable to what goes on in The Peten and Chiapas among other palces in that region.

The article I cite was headlined "BELIZE MOB TORCHES AMERICANS´ ANIMAL SANCTUARY, BUT THEIR WILL ENDURES".

I must stop now until tomorrow morning but, at that time, I´ll summarize what happened in the Toledo interior near Punta Gorda plus some things I have experienced in Chiapas and, hopefully, the reader will see how this event in Belize speaks volumes about miscommunication among different ethnic and national groups sharing that part of North America of which Central America is a part.

More tomorrow but in the meantime, if you wish to review the article on the internet go to CNN.Com (International).

Hound Dog

Sep 19, 2010, 12:40 PM

Post #2 of 32 (3340 views)

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FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE PART 11

Sorry about the interruption but it was unavoidable.

While we have lived in Mexico for nearly a decade practically non-stop, we have only been at home in Chiapas since 2006 and then only about half of each year with the rest spent at Lake Chapala. The longer we have lived in the Jovel Valley (San Cristóbal and surroundings) the more we have become cognizant of how little we understand the place. The mixture in relatively close quarters of mestizos, people of Spanish descent, some foreigners and indigenous live in what I would call a tense peace but, further, the various indigenous groups in Chiapas also live in a tense peace interrupted intermittently by vicious internecine violence. So, this artice I cited in the above post regarding violence in Southeastern Belize caught my eye as I scanned the Google news yesterday.

Allow me to summarize:

Two Americans in their 40s today, moved to the Toledo region of Belize in 2004 and, over the years, established a private reserve for two types of (allegedly) endangered crocodiles inhabiting the coast and inland regions of Belize. The private reserve is (or was) named The American Crocodile Education Sanctuary and is located in the inland forests near the small city and tourist center of Punta Gorda on the Caribbean Sea. That area of Belize is largely inhabited by Garifunas and indigenous Mayas with some Asians and some local and foreign whites who may be tourists, administrators or business people.

The American Crocodile Education Sanctuary consisted, until the events I am about to recount, of 36 acres with a few structures and a couple of acres of manmade canals dug by the proprietors for use by the "rescued" crocodiles. I inderstand they also had two boats they used in the business.

Lat Sunday, while the proprietors were away at distant Ambergris Caye "rescuing" a couple of crocodiles there, a throng of angry Maya villagers from the nearby Maya municipality of San Marcos, torched the buildings on the property and generally laid waste to the sanctuary after a psychic told the villagers that the Americans had fed two village children missing for a couple of weeks to the crocodiles. The children had disappeared one day while on their way on foot from their home in San Marcos to Punta Gorda, a distance of about 10 miles, to sell village wares - something they did routinely, apparently.

The villagers who ransacked and burned the sanctuary property had indicated an intention to chop the Americans into pieces and feed their remains to the reserve´s crocodiles had they been there. The locally hired caretaker and local police had been of no assistance in preventing the attack as one who lives in this region would expect.

The Americans have vowed to rebuild the sanctuary but Dawg doubts that unless these Americans can somehow make peace with and receive the blessings of village elders. That´s a complicated issue but let´s just say that is unlikely based on the hard feelings expressed by both sides and the intransigence and the vociferous nature of the sancuary proprietors seen by this poster calling the villagers savages. To complicate matters further, the Maya themselves are no piece of cake to deal with so we have two sides to a dispute neither of which are prone to compromise short of the obsequious acquiescence of one party to the other.

The Americans certainly came off as assertive and uncompromising on the television report I saw on the internet as broadcast on Belizean TV and anyone familiar with Mayan culture (and other indigenous cultures in the region) knows that psychics are widely used by them to solve problems not otherwise resolvable and, what foreigners might cite as superstitious nonsense, holds strong sway in Maya communities such as San Marcos. We have indigenous friends in Oaxaca State who use psychics often to advise them on problem resolution and we have learned not only to respect that custom absolutely but have personally benefitted by the advice of a phychic brought to us by indigenous friends.

I don´t want to go into any detail on the Belize incident but there have been a number of similar incidents not unlike the incident involving the Maya and foreigners in Belize which have taught us to respect the customs of the Maya surrounding us in Chiapas or any other contemporary political subdivision in that region. Shortly, I will relate several incidents that have occurred that we witnessed in Southern Mexico that have had a profound effect on our thinking when it comes to co-existing with indigenous peoples in Southern Mexico, Guatemala and Belize.

For now I must go.

Reefhound

Sep 19, 2010, 6:10 PM

Post #3 of 32 (3299 views)

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It's exactly what I would expect from one who hates America and anyone from it. Those two Americans have some nerve, getting upset simply because the locals burned everything they own to the ground on a whim. Shame on them.

I wonder if it had been a couple of Mayan immigrants living in an all white suburb in Texas, whose home had been burned to the ground and their lives threatened because their neighbors were acting on a hunch that a recent rash of crimes simply musta been those relatively new dad-gummed foreigners, what would people here think of someone who excused the vengeful neighbors but chided those immigrants for not being willing to laugh it all off and try to better understand the fears and suspicions of those neighbors?

Hound Dog

Sep 19, 2010, 7:43 PM

Post #4 of 32 (3284 views)

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Ain´t nothing in the woodwork in fine old houses in sultry but extraordinarily beautiful regions from New Orleans to Mobile to Savannah to Charleston to, for that matter, stonework in highland alpine valleys such as San Cristóbal de Las Casas that brings out the value of such temporary constructions and human conceits as the destruction wrought by single-minded termites or worms eating away at the infrastructure with no more important goal than the fiiling of an already distended belly with nourishing detritis. I keep fishing for carp and at times bring these repulsive creatures on board my skiff with no better end than watching them thrash about as if they had anything for which to live except the endless consumption of crap. I see I will not go home empty handed this evening.

Tomorrow, I hope to explain what I learned from the events in Belize I discussed above. I forewarn that there are no heroes nor villians to identify at that time.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Sep 19, 2010, 7:56 PM)

Bennie García

Sep 19, 2010, 7:58 PM

Post #5 of 32 (3273 views)

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You know fella, I was wondering the same thing sort of except it was about those young white Americans in Pa. that kicked a poor young Mexican to death a couple of years ago just because he was with a white girl. They got off with a slap on the wrist. Now if a few young Mexicans decided to beat your silly ass to death just for being a gringo and got off with a year or two behind bars it would be a huge scandal in the US.

YucaLandia

Sep 19, 2010, 8:07 PM

Post #6 of 32 (3272 views)

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Dawg,
What a story.

I like how it plays out as a "this is how it is" tale, rather than some tale of who is right and who is wrong.
It's also a good reminder that on some levels, we will always be foreigners here, even after living here 6 or 7 years.

Time to make sure we are friends with our neighbors?
cheers, steve
- -
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

Vichil

Sep 20, 2010, 6:01 AM

Post #7 of 32 (3248 views)

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I remember what happened in Mobile Bay when the newly arrived Vietnamese fishermen started collecting crabs from all these crab pots that were left up for grab in the bay or when the Hmong emigrants in San Francisco started trapping the wild life and pets in Golden Gate Park. Talking about a huge scandal!
It is what happen when two cultures who have nothing in common live 10 miles from each other. It is not American bashing it is just life and misunderstanding in action.
The Mayas as a rule do not like outsiders and are very distrustful of strangers, imagine from their point of view a couple of stager spending all this money and effort to save crocs when they have to send their kids to work to make a living. It has to be totally suspecious from their point of view. Also they have been rumors for ever and ever about foreigners kidnapping kids for organs and other purposes so when they know they are fat crocs that have to have food it is not a huge stretch that they are fed human flesh...(their point of view)
The Americans were also totally into their own cause not seeing the other side, a recipe for for some bad relationship if you ask me. Calling the next door neighbors savages on local tv does not improve the situation either.

Reefhound

Sep 20, 2010, 8:57 AM

Post #8 of 32 (3222 views)

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I like how it plays out as a "this is how it is" tale, rather than some tale of who is right and who is wrong.

If you cannot see clearly who is right and who is wrong in a situation where one side destroys everything the other side owns and would have killed them if given the opportunity, then God help you.

Those that can only see shades of grey regardless of actual contrast like to pretend they are enlightened but in fact are only blind.

I'm pretty sure none of you have trouble seeing who is right and who is wrong in Benny's example in PA. Which, if he had provided a link, I'm pretty sure we would have found that the other "locals" rallied behind the victim not the perpetrators.

Dawg, cute analogy except I'm afraid the carp are gonna outlive the old fisherman and will be stocking the pond long after he has become worm food.

Bennie García

Sep 20, 2010, 9:51 AM

Post #9 of 32 (3205 views)

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In Reply To

I'm pretty sure none of you have trouble seeing who is right and who is wrong in Benny's example in PA. Which, if he had provided a link, I'm pretty sure we would have found that the other "locals" rallied behind the victim not the perpetrators.

Looks like the only thing you are sure of is that your opinions are the only correct ones. Otherwise you would have Googled it by now.

raferguson

Sep 20, 2010, 10:01 AM

Post #10 of 32 (3204 views)

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This sounds a bit familiar, in that indigenous groups in Guatemala often believe that foreigners are trying to kidnap their children, perhaps to resell organs. I have always heard that it is best not to be too interested in or friendly with children in Guatemala, for that reason.

There are lots of strange beliefs out there, on both sides of the border. For example, about one third of Americans believe in UFOs (aliens). And of course there are many who see common Christian beliefs as strange.

Perhaps the difference is that incidents of criminal attacks in the USA based on belief in UFOs seem to be nonexistent, while in the third world, they still lynch alleged witches.

I think that too often we assume that people from other cultures are just like us. Incidents like this remind us that we only think that we understand other cultures.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

Reefhound

Sep 20, 2010, 10:36 AM

Post #11 of 32 (3194 views)

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Looks like the only thing you are sure of is that your opinions are the only correct ones. Otherwise you would have Googled it by now.

If you accurately knew the details yourself you would have had the link handy.

Reefhound

Sep 20, 2010, 10:41 AM

Post #12 of 32 (3193 views)

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There are lots of strange beliefs out there, on both sides of the border. For example, about one third of Americans believe in UFOs (aliens). And of course there are many who see common Christian beliefs as strange.

Perhaps the difference is that incidents of criminal attacks in the USA based on belief in UFOs seem to be nonexistent, while in the third world, they still lynch alleged witches.

Actually, one could probably find plenty of cases in the USA of criminal attacks based on xenophobic fears or superstitions. The difference is that in the USA such actions are considered despicable by most and the victims are not blamed simply for not understanding and accepting those crimes.

Hound Dog

Sep 20, 2010, 10:57 AM

Post #13 of 32 (3188 views)

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tashby

Sep 20, 2010, 11:01 AM

Post #14 of 32 (3185 views)

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Do we know what actually happened to the two kids? Are we to assume, for the sake of this discussion, that they were eaten by crocodiles while crossing the preserve that previously didn't exist until it was set up by the Americans?

Seems to me that's a key piece of information.

joaquinx

Sep 20, 2010, 11:31 AM

Post #15 of 32 (3169 views)

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Let's see. The village where the children were supposed to be living is 10 miles away from the ali-eco-center. The father said that he took them to a bus station which I guess was in the village and never saw them again. Could the children have traveled 10 miles without help? Did the bus travel through or near the center? Who saw the children after the father dropped them off? I'm going out on a limb here and cast some suspicion on the father. And tell the gringos to save the gators in Florida.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

Bennie García

Sep 20, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #16 of 32 (3159 views)

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In Reply To

You sure like to speak for others, don't you, pal?

You are the one spouting opinions based on your own assumptions. You aren't worthy the time it takes to post a link. You wouldn't read it and if you did, you wouldn't accept it. I have seen many cases of anal-cranial inversion in my day but yours is the most acute case.

Vichil

Sep 20, 2010, 2:06 PM

Post #17 of 32 (3138 views)

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yes the children could have travelled 10 miles without help if there was public transportation. Hopefully some passengers or bus drivers will recollect seeing them and can tell the police where they got off although I would think that many children from that village go on and off.
It is not unusual to see children travel by themselves in small group or at least in pairs. Someone has to have seen them but then someone also has to seriously want to find them...
For some reason quite a few children are being murdered in Belize right now, so people have to be pretty uptight about it.

The last people saw of them was at 3.45pm when they probably were going back home. They were seen trying to get a ride in a place called Cattle Landing. Does not sound too good.

The Maya villagers were very frustrated because they felt the police did not do anything and did not investigate the Croc farm and the owner Vincent Rose as they were very friendly with him. Sounds familiar....

(This post was edited by Vichil on Sep 20, 2010, 2:48 PM)

Reefhound

Sep 20, 2010, 3:38 PM

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The Maya villagers were very frustrated because they felt the police did not do anything and did not investigate the Croc farm and the owner Vincent Rose as they were very friendly with him. Sounds familiar....

If the two croc owners are determined to have anything to do with the missing kids I'm all for serving them up as dinner to their own crocs. But I am stunned at how so many seem to think that frustrations or fears are justification to destroy the homes and threaten the lives of others with no evidence. If the roles were reversed and the location different, as I postulated in my first post, I think the outrage and condemnation here would be deafening. But in your zeal to prove to each other how much you love Mexico you belittle the victims and justify the actions of the aggressors. That is hypocrisy. When your judgment is dependent on the ethnicity of the parties involved, that is the very racism that so many of you condemn.

I don't care who you are or where you are from, it violates a basic universal human right to have your homes destroyed and your lives threatened for something you didn't do, or at least as far as any evidence is concerned.

DavidHF

Sep 20, 2010, 4:36 PM

Post #19 of 32 (3109 views)

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Hound Dog

Sep 20, 2010, 5:51 PM

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Reefhound, catch a clue: The law of the jungle isn't applied because of "facts." Perception is the only reality. When one lives in another culture it's important to accept things in order to adapt. You don't have to adopt to adapt but you do have to accept. Your idea of "right and wrong" in this case is totally out of place.

Perhaps well said, David but you may as well bark at the moon.

Reefhound is the perfect example of why, if one is to hope to mature with age and become more understanding of the world temporarily bestowed upon one, one must get out of Podunk and travel about, engaging locals from Ouagadougoo to Dar es Salaam as opportunity permits.

Reefhound´s seeming intransigence really bespeaks a mind untempered by wide experience just as a tightly knit gene pool promises an eventual degradation of the species. In that sense, Reefhound mirrors the attitudes of the isolated and superstitious Maya of San Marcos he thinks he despises because he unconciously recognizes them as brothers. Spending too much time in hellholes like Houston or San Marcos diseases the brain and invites atrophy.

As ex-Florida governor Ruben Askew said many years ago; "Yáll don´t unnerstand. Heah in Flawda, ever ten years or so we have a hurricane that wipes out all those trailer parks and butt-ugly condos and redneck honky tonks and we call that urban renewal."

What Reefhound needs is a fine Category Four Hurricane that will blow him into the next county where he can meet some new Lady GaGa and renew the gene pool.

By the way, I have still to make my final point on this thread that I started. I´ll try to do that tomorrow. It amazes me that I have yet to draw a conclusion from a simple recitation of events and I have already stirred the pot so. ¡DAMN!

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Sep 20, 2010, 6:01 PM)

YucaLandia

Sep 20, 2010, 7:44 PM

Post #21 of 32 (3062 views)

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Reefhound,

If you cannot see clearly who is right and who is wrong in a situation where one side destroys everything the other side owns and would have killed them if given the opportunity, then God help you.

- -
The people who burned property certainly know that burning other's property is not a good thing, and mobs of any flavor are unpredictable and sometimes dangerous. But I think there is more to the story.

I was clearly in the right in one misunderstanding with one of our Yuco neighbors, but I found myself surrounded by police and neighbors who were eager to call me liar, liar, liar, & take me to jail, when 3 of the accusers were not even present at the time of the problem. Fortunately, I had taken fotos, and the police agreed that the fotos clearly showed that my points were factual - and the accuser's lawyer even agreed using a CD of the fotos that I provided, with authorities agreeing that they had no claim.

Did that make me "right"?

Could I, or should I have handled the situation differently?

Or, as the foreigner, should I be expected to be held to different or higher standards? Typically, yes. These problems often boil down to "us vs. them" cases - and as foreigners, we will always be "them" - which goes back to the point of the thread: the difficulty of communicating between very different cultures.

In my case, if I could go back in time, I would change my reactions to the problem, because, even though I was right, being right did not justify my initial reactions.

I certainly don't advocate mobs burning property, but is this case that simple? Are there risks inherent in choosing to live in remote jungle areas? e.g. Does it help for people to call their neighbors "savages".

In caring for 17 crocodiles, Cherie Rose points out that:

"We do more in one day than some people do in a lifetime."

Is there possibly more to the story (where the CNN version is just the tip of the iceberg) In response to a television reporter’s question soon after the fire, Vince Rose is reported to have replied:

“It's just unacceptable that a pre-meditated group of savages
- and they are not human beings, they are savages
- they should not even be out on the streets.
They should all be in prison because they are not human beings.”

- -
Other observations from Belize report:

"These comments have been taken by many Belizeans as proof of the anti-Mayan views of the Roses."

--
Do anti-Mayan views attributed to the Roses, justify a mob burning their home? No.
But maybe there is more to the story. Is this a cautionary tale that you can be right, but being right (and not having insurance) may leave you homeless and destitute in a foreign country? Some things just don't smell right about this tale.
Cheers, steve
- -

-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Sep 20, 2010, 8:02 PM)

Vichil

Sep 21, 2010, 6:54 AM

Post #22 of 32 (3013 views)

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It is interesting that the Roses only worry about the crocs when two kids have disappeared, it tells you where their priorities are.
It is very sad that the kids will probably never be found and no one except for the "savages" care about it. They loked like the typical little children you see seeling goods, cute as can be. Some sick person probably took them and they will never be seen ever again.
Mobs are dangerous and unpredictable but they started peacefully and started acting violent when the police did not react to their demand. It could have been prevented if the various faction of the community could communicate better.

Reefhound

Sep 21, 2010, 7:19 AM

Post #23 of 32 (3006 views)

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But I think there is more to the story.

Maybe so, I can only base my statements and opinions on the story as told. GIGO.

Or, as the foreigner, should I be expected to be held to different or higher standards? Typically, yes.

If that's your view, so be it. Just be consistent. What riles me is all those here who see it as perfectly acceptable when an American immigrant gets shorted by a Mexican resident when I have known them to get outraged when a Mexican immigrant gets shorted by an American resident. Hypocrites are the most despicable life form.

Is there possibly more to the story (where the CNN version is just the tip of the iceberg) In response to a television reporter’s question soon after the fire, Vince Rose is reported to have replied:
“It's just unacceptable that a pre-meditated group of savages
- and they are not human beings, they are savages
- they should not even be out on the streets.
They should all be in prison because they are not human beings.”

Let's keep track of the chronological sequence of events. Those statements were made AFTER they were victimized. If I were to beat you to a pulp and destroy your house, you then calling me a savage or a thug afterwards could not serve as justification for my actions.

Reefhound

Sep 21, 2010, 7:35 AM

Post #24 of 32 (3004 views)

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Vichil

Sep 21, 2010, 10:38 AM

Post #25 of 32 (2972 views)

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You are confused about the trampled down minorities: the Mayas are in the same boats are blacks were not the diletante American .
The American was there at the wrong place wrong time doing the thing that could get him in trouble with the locals. Not everyone is happy to see 300 pound crocodilos in their back yard, He is not a local he can leave and go and save the crocs somewhere else, the Mayas do not have that luxury.

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