MexConnect.com Forums: Specific Focus: Learning Spanish: Learning to speak Spanish: Page 2

Re: [esperanza] Learning to speak Spanish

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Hello esperanza and others,

No, learning Spanish at an advanced age of life is not difficult. Nor do the memory problems of old age really affect that problem of learning.

I am not extremely intelligent. I began to teach myself, with a lot of help, how to listen to and reply to a Spanish conversation at the rather advanced age of 64. I have been learning more ever since. And yes, I find that words that I learned 20 years ago but HAVE NOT USED or HEARD lately have slipped my memory. There is always a simple work around. A couple of days ago I was trying to remember the word chicharones in a conversation with my helper who speaks only Spanish. For the life of me I couldn't remember. So I asked her "What is the word for that pork skin and other parts which are cooked in the gas fired olla usually on the street and in its own grease and then twisted dry?" She immediately supplied the word chicharones. Of course my question was in Spanish. But I could have used a simpler description and gotten the same result.

No, your friend of 74 has just concluded that she is too old to learn and will not try. And that is the trouble with most of us. We find that learning Spanish does NOT come easy, and that if we don't use it we lose it. We do not listen to Spanish TV, and when we have the opportunity to speak Spanish and listen to it we don't take advantage of that opportunity. We don't ask questions or for help. We fall back on the excuse we are too old to learn.

I have heard that same excuse from illiterate people who while still relative youngsters will not take the effort to learn to read or write. I have an English student in Medical School who still writes in Block print because she has never seen the use of learning to take notes in cursive. In fact not even to hold her pencil or pen correctly. She is only 19 and came to class complaining about the pain in her hand and wrist from taking notes in her college classes. Is she too old to learn how to write in cursive letters? Obviously not. Or even to hold her pen or pencil correctly.So what is her excuse? The same with her computer, she is not computer literate. Not able to learn is her excuse. Forgive me! If that is a valid excuse how in the world can she plan to become a neuroligist?

I wrote my long previous post in an effort to try to encourage people of advanced age to make the effort to learn Spanish. I have done so and I am still learning and I am 84. How old do I have to be before I can quit learning? I never want to find out!

It takes desire and gumption. One cannot begin and then quit. Life is not like that.

Hasta luego, jerezano.

Sep 10, 2010, 5:32 AM

Post #27 of 67 (2713 views)

Re: [jerezano] Learning to speak Spanish

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Thanks, the "usted" always seemed cumbersome. ¿Cómo está? as opposed to ¿Cómo estás? or ¿Cómo está usted? would be sufficiently formal, adding "usted" would be extremely polite then? There was only once a long time back that I used a tú form that it seemed out of place afterwards. I was given a sort of "gringo pass" on that one, and the fact that I'm not all that young either.

The first problem in coming here was learning Spanish but now the drill is to get it right. I have always found the people here to be extremely polite and helpful but even close friends will do little to correct errors or suggest a better way to say something. That just doesn't seem to be part of the culture and despite my urging that they correct me they will let pass anything if they feel they understand what I am trying to say.

Trying to learn by listening is almost impossible. I find I do not hear anything unless I am very familiar with the words and have used them a lot myself. Consequently, it seems I can only speak with friends and strangers are near impossible to understand unless it is very basic. This is improving somewhat over time though.

I have learned fairly good pronunciation and mimic the accent fairly well so that when I speak to someone new it opens a floodgate to rapid Spanish that I cannot even hope to understand.

Sep 10, 2010, 5:53 AM

Post #28 of 67 (2713 views)

Re: [jerezano] Learning to speak Spanish

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I had read that learning a foreign language later in life is the type of mind exercise that staves off Alzheimer's and other mental deterioration. You seem to subscribe to the same philosophy. There are so many ways that moving here to Mexico has helped transform me into a much "younger person" than I had become.

Working eight to fifteen hours a day on a control console may have helped keep my mind sharp but my body had become very stiff and now it seems like ancient history. The lifestyle here is much more active. I feel if I had selected a more rural setting a little gardening now and then would not have been enough. By living downtown and having almost unlimited activities and opportunities within walking distance has rolled years off my age and the mind/body connection has cleared my thinking as well. ¡Viva México!

Sep 10, 2010, 10:32 AM

Post #29 of 67 (2692 views)

Re: [Peter] Learning to speak Spanish

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Quote

The first problem in coming here was learning Spanish but now the drill is to get it right. I have always found the people here to be extremely polite and helpful but even close friends will do little to correct errors or suggest a better way to say something. That just doesn't seem to be part of the culture and despite my urging that they correct me they will let pass anything if they feel they understand what I am trying to say.

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The kindness of Mexicans toward anyone who attempts to communicate with them in Spanish can be a mixed blessing: On the one hand, it encourages beginners to speak without fear they will be laughed if they make mistakes. On the other hand, as Peter mentions above, Mexicans are loath to correct your mistakes even if you ask them to since it would help you to improve. I think this is related to the Mexican uneasiness about saying "no" to requests or questions. That's why if you ask someone on the street if they know where such-and-such a place is located, they would rather give you the wrong directions instead of saying they don't know. Just part of the culture that you have to get used to if you're living here . . .

(This post was edited by La Isla on Sep 10, 2010, 10:48 AM)

Sep 10, 2010, 10:46 AM

Post #30 of 67 (2689 views)

Re: [jerezano] Learning to speak Spanish

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For some strange reason the term Don . . . is used only in front of a Christian name not the surname (apellido). Extremely polite and almost servile . . .

The use of don and doña with first names is a marvelous feature of Spanish, with no counterpart in English. It combines familiarity, by addressing the person you're talking to with his or her first name, and respect, conferred by the use of the honorific in question. I don't think it implies servility at all, don Jerezano!

Here's the definition of don from the dictionary of the RAE: "Tratamiento de respeto, hoy muy generalizado, que se antepone a los nombres masculinos de pila." And for the ladies, "Tratamiento de respeto que se aplica a las mujeres y precede a su nombre de pila."

(This post was edited by La Isla on Sep 10, 2010, 10:50 AM)

jerezano

Sep 10, 2010, 11:37 AM

Post #31 of 67 (2679 views)

Re: [La Isla] Learning to speak Spanish

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Hello La Isla

You are absolutely correct La Isla in your statement that Don and Doña do not connote servility at all.

>>>>>>>The use of don and doña with first names is a marvelous feature of Spanish, with no counterpart in English. It combines familiarity, by addressing the person you're talking to with his or her first name, and respect, conferred by the use of the honorific in question. I don't think it implies servility at all, don Jerezano!<<<<

The concatenation of honorifics is what denotes servility: C. Sr. Don Juan. Let's make it even more so: El honorable C. Sr. Don Juan. Yet, as I mentioned before this concatenation is quite often seen.

And hmmmm....I see that you used the don without the mayuscula. I have never seen that before. Do you suppose it could be a regional difference? As we all know, there are plenty of those.

And thanks for calling me Don jerezano. I don't often hear that.

Hasta luego. jerezano

Sep 10, 2010, 11:59 AM

Post #32 of 67 (2671 views)

Re: [jerezano] Learning to speak Spanish

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The stringing together of honorifics could denote servility, or just extreme respect, the latter turning into the former at some point, I guess. I've been studying Spanish seriously from high school through an M.A. and somewhere along the way I learned that don and doña begin with lower-case d's.

Sep 10, 2010, 10:22 PM

Post #33 of 67 (2642 views)

Re: [La Isla] Learning to speak Spanish

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A couple years ago when a friend turned 30 I spent the day calling her Doña as a way of teasing her for becoming older and passing the 30 threshold. Though it may be a term of respect it can be insulting to a younger woman to be called Doña.

Sep 10, 2010, 10:27 PM

Post #34 of 67 (2639 views)

Re: [Peter] Learning to speak Spanish

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You're right about that, Peter. Actually in Mexico the use of doña isn't that common. To show respect to an older woman, well, older than your 30-year-old friend, it seems more usual to use señora, alone or with the first name.

chris cooper

Sep 11, 2010, 6:22 AM

Post #35 of 67 (2630 views)

Re: [La Isla] Learning to speak Spanish

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In Reply To

That hasn't been my experience. I think if one knows the person well then don or doña are used according to custom. For the most part when you address a stranger then señor or señora are called for.

Some young people will address elders that are strangers simply as do or doña but señor and señora are used more often.

Sep 11, 2010, 8:27 AM

Post #36 of 67 (2619 views)

Re: [chris cooper] Learning to speak Spanish

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Maybe I should have written that living in Mexico City, I haven't found that don and doña are used very much. Where do you live, Chris?

esperanza

Sep 11, 2010, 12:00 PM

Post #37 of 67 (2609 views)

Re: [chris cooper] Learning to speak Spanish

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I have lived in Tijuana, a tiny town in Michoacán, Mexico City, Ajijijc, Guadalajara, and now Morelia. Don and doña are commonly used in all of those places and indeed, all over Mexico. In fact, if a person does not know one's name, don or doña are frequently used as a form of address, without the first name. From the tianguis vendor, for example: "Sí, doña, el camarón está bien caro, pero vale la pena, está bien rico."

What I also hear is the use of "seño" when talking to a woman. It's an abbreviated form of both señorita and señora, and is used in instances when one does not know the marital status of the woman to whom one is talking. I am reminded of an old friend of mine who (never married at age 60) was highly indignant at being called "señora" by a male acquaintance. "SEÑORA! Por favor! Soy señorita..." I'd be wary of calling a woman señora, even in jest, just because she turned 30.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Sep 11, 2010, 1:33 PM

Post #38 of 67 (2600 views)

Re: [esperanza] Learning to speak Spanish

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I bow to your greater experience, esperanza, but in the three years I've lived in Mexico City, no one has ever addressed me as doña. If someone in the neighborhood doesn't know me by name, they call me señora or occasionally señorita.

eyePad

Sep 11, 2010, 2:24 PM

Post #39 of 67 (2597 views)

Re: [La Isla] Learning to speak Spanish

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I'm not sure that I understand your comment, eyePad...

If you look at the amount of activity on the busiest sections of this site and compare it to learning spanish, you will understand.

And if a 60 year old woman insists on being called señorita, that's just weird!
apáñatelas como puedas

Rolly

Sep 11, 2010, 3:39 PM

Post #40 of 67 (2580 views)

Re: [eyePad] Learning to speak Spanish

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And if a 60 year old woman insists on being called señorita, that's just weird!

Why is that weird? I know two older, unmarried women who are regularly called señorita.

Rolly Pirate

esperanza

Sep 12, 2010, 7:42 AM

Post #41 of 67 (2553 views)

Re: [Rolly] Learning to speak Spanish

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And if a 60 year old woman insists on being called señorita, that's just weird!

Why is that weird? I know two older, unmarried women who are regularly called señorita.

Rolly

I agree with Rolly. Even though a woman is older, she is still unmarried and a señorita. Her marital status does not depend on her age. It's incorrect--and can be perceived as rude--to call her señora.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

(This post was edited by esperanza on Sep 12, 2010, 7:43 AM)

Sep 12, 2010, 7:52 AM

Post #42 of 67 (2547 views)

Re: [esperanza] Learning to speak Spanish

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The 85-year old aunt of a Mexican friend who has never married insists on being addressed as señorita. She always insists on this with good humor, but insist she does!

Sep 12, 2010, 8:32 AM

Post #43 of 67 (2544 views)

Re: [esperanza] Learning to speak Spanish

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It is always good to use the correct form if you happen to know their status. Absence of a ring here means nothing. It may be thought rude if inappropriate but I am sure it would be given a pass if the wrong assumption is made when one is attempting to be polite. One might naturally assume an older womon would be señora though perhaps it would be flattering to call any woman señorita even if she were in her 80's. Even if the wrong form were selected accidently I imagine it is still preferrable to, "Hey, you."

jerezano

Sep 13, 2010, 7:32 AM

Post #44 of 67 (2509 views)

Re: [Peter] Learning to speak Spanish

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Hola a todos:

Señora vs Señorita.

Here in my region of Zacatecas it seems to be the culture, and I have been told so various times, that if I meet a woman for the first time and want to talk to her I MUST call her Señorita. No matter if I see ten kids around the house. The rule seems to be that unless I personally KNOW that she is married (i.e., I am introduced to her by her husband, or the person who introduces us calls her Señora, or she herself says Señora) I MUST call her Señorita. Otherwise it is insulting.

That rule seems to work. I have never been corrected by a person insisting that she is Señorita. I have many times been told Señora after calling her Señorita. Always pleasantly, without insistence.

Like our friend Peter? I prefer to live a tranquil life so I do what I have been told.

Hasta luego. jerezano.

Rolly

Sep 13, 2010, 8:08 AM

Post #45 of 67 (2503 views)

Re: [esperanza] Learning to speak Spanish

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Seño

I asked my friend about seño. He said he uses it often. He also said to be sure not to say seno.
Seno has several meanings, among them are bosom and teat.

Rolly Pirate

Sep 13, 2010, 8:12 AM

Post #46 of 67 (2501 views)

Re: [jerezano] Learning to speak Spanish

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... if I meet a woman for the first time and want to talk to her I MUST call her Señorita. No matter if I see ten kids around the house. The rule seems to be that unless I personally KNOW that she is married (i.e., I am introduced to her by her husband, or the person who introduces us calls her Señora, or she herself says Señora) I MUST call her Señorita. Otherwise it is insulting.

That rule seems to work. I have never been corrected by a person insisting that she is Señorita. I have many times been told Señora after calling her Señorita. Always pleasantly, without insistence.

Thanks! Great rule-of-thumb. A lot of unwritten rules of courtesy here I don't want to offend.

eyePad

Sep 15, 2010, 2:50 PM

Post #47 of 67 (2459 views)

Re: [Peter] Learning to speak Spanish

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Señora is a term of respect. Why don't we just call them niñas - Try that. How about older men - are you going to call an 85 year old man joven? This has to do with the difference between tu and usted, a practice still very much alive in Mexico. Your Mexican friends might humor you if your Spanish is poor but I couldn't get away with it. Anyway, that wasn't my main point.
apáñatelas como puedas

Sep 15, 2010, 3:23 PM

Post #48 of 67 (2457 views)

Re: [eyePad] Learning to speak Spanish

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A friend here calls the peddlers that approach you at stoplights as mija though some are fairly old. No, gracias, mija.

Sep 15, 2010, 7:25 PM

Post #49 of 67 (2446 views)

Re: [eyePad] Learning to speak Spanish

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In Reply To

Señora is a term of respect. Why don't we just call them niñas - Try that.

No need for sarcasm, don eyePad : ) . While señora is a term of respect, some older Mexican women who are not married prefer to be addressed as señorita, and if that is what they prefer, then it would be a sign of disrespect to ignore their wishes, ¿no crees?

peter savoy

Sep 21, 2010, 8:31 AM

Post #50 of 67 (2387 views)