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raferguson


Aug 19, 2010, 9:14 AM

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Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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I was reading the Wall Street Journal, and the lead article, top of the front page, was about the narco-violence in Monterrey. It indicated that the business leaders have placed full page ads in local newspapers, saying "Enough Already." and complaining of slow response by police against "criminal bands that in every act look to establish a new boundary of terror". I have not located the text of the ad in Spanish as of yet.

Mexico does not often make the front page of the Wall Street Journal, let alone the lead article.

The immediate cause of the furor was the kidnapping and murder of the mayor of Santiago, a suburb of Monterrey, but of course there have been many other incidents in Monterrey.

El Universal in Mexico City had many articles and editorials on this subject. One said that Monterrey, as the business hub of the country, could not be allowed to fall into the hands of organized crime, and that to allow it to do so would signify the definitive failure of the national government. In other words, if Monterrey falls into the hands of organized crime, Mexico could be considered to be a failed state. Another editorial talked about fear coming to Monterrey, spread from cell phone to cell phone.

Monterrey has not been considered a hotbed of criminal activity, until recently. Monterrey is a long way from the border.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

chinagringo


Aug 19, 2010, 9:44 AM

Post #2 of 51 (3669 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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The situation in Monterrey appears to have been on a downward spiral for some time and it is getting progressively worse. The criminal gangs recognize the importance of industry to Monterrey and their latest tactics involving the use of blockades to disrupt commerce is just one example. There was a day last week when they concentrated their blockades on the avenue/highway to the airport in the early morning hours. While there were conflicting reports, somewhere between 10 and 20 flights were negatively affected at the airport. Just the other day, there were a reported 39 blockades, again during the morning commute hours. The City is now using helicopters to quickly spot the blockades and provide relief.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM


Altahabana


Aug 19, 2010, 4:13 PM

Post #3 of 51 (3609 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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We get two Monterrey stations (Televisa and Milenio) as part of our cable package and that city is gripped by a collective psicosis de miedo as the commentators are fond of saying. That certainly was the vibe in Nuevo Laredo following the July 16 balacera. I guess because people still function in cities affected by the narco insurgency and those places don't resemble Berlin during the last days of World War II, some posters on ex-pat boards stubbornly refuse to admit that Mexico is in the midst of a serious crisis and spin or dissemble.

But Monterrey as Chinogringo says has been on a downbound train for some time and it is not getting better. The abduction and murder of Santiago, N.L. mayor Edelmiro Cavazos may have pushed the situation close to a breaking point. It looks like a rough ride for a city that used to be a good place to live.

chinagringo


Aug 20, 2010, 7:24 AM

Post #4 of 51 (3517 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Although brief, here is an article on the blockades:
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/...s-narcobloqueos.html

It is also being reported in various news outlets this morning that an additional 150 Federales arrived in Monterrey yesterday to beef up the security forces.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM


Maxmilliano

Aug 20, 2010, 9:38 AM

Post #5 of 51 (3470 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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For reference here is the link to the article:

http://online.wsj.com/...=WSJ_article_related


(This post was edited by Rolly on Aug 20, 2010, 11:15 AM)

gene089

Aug 22, 2010, 3:36 PM

Post #6 of 51 (3239 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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I have been traveling to Mexico for 41 years. The first time I drove into Mexico was 1969 when I was a senior in college and I and six of my fellow class mates drove down to Victoria, Mante, Valles, and Tampico in two cars over spring break. I fell in love and have been driving into Mexico 2-3 times per year since. I have driven all over Mexico, most places, many times. I thought Mexico was a magical place and the Mexican people were a beautiful and gentle people.

The current events in Mexico make me sick and totally disgust me. I now believe the Mexican people are nothing but a bunch of thugs, thieves, criminals, and murderers, and if they individually have not done these things, they are guilty for tolerating these things by others or "looking the other way" after taking a bribe. I do not believe I will ever go to Mexico again. If I am not kidnapped and held for ransom from my family, I will be at least pulled over by dishonest police who will brow-beat me for a mordida or will plant drugs on me and throw me in jail and hold me until I pay $10,000 to get the charges dropped.

Sorry, but thanks for letting me vent.

La Isla


Aug 22, 2010, 4:25 PM

Post #7 of 51 (3225 views)

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Re: [gene089] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Quote
The current events in Mexico make me sick and totally disgust me. I now believe the Mexican people are nothing but a bunch of thugs, thieves, criminals, and murderers, and if they individually have not done these things, they are guilty for tolerating these things by others or "looking the other way" after taking a bribe.

After reading this section of gene089's post, I felt compelled to post a protest, but the whole tone of rant has left me speechless and more than a bit nauseous.

chinagringo


Aug 22, 2010, 4:31 PM

Post #8 of 51 (3223 views)

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Re: [gene089] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Gene:

While your 41 years of experience traveling Mexico provides you with a basis for your rant, you do not say if any of the current events have affected you directly. There is no denying that the situation is bad and appears to be getting worse in many areas but that brush is pretty darned wide that you use to paint the Mexican population with! While not what one would define as a typical war, Mexico has a war on its hands and its citizens are at the front end of the learning curve on how to deal with it. Self preservation generally becomes the #1 priority until such time as the citizens can figure out in which direction they wish to go. Think Iraq - Cartels = Saddam. The possible plus for Mexico is that they have a history of running off the offenders once they put their collective minds and bodies together.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM


Vichil

Aug 22, 2010, 6:02 PM

Post #9 of 51 (3192 views)

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Re: [gene089] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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It is easy to rant in general but what do you expect the people who are victims of this mess to do? They canot go to the police as part of the police is part of the problem. Not all the police is corrupt but the one that is not gets killed just like our assistant chief a few month ago.
Plata o plomo rules here.
A month ago several young men got kidnapped in our area and a couple of weeks ago some body parts were found in various bags and suitcases.
One of the victim was a young man I knew personaly. Pancho was a good kid who was working hard to support his daughter and wanted to save the 5000 dollars the coyotes want to take him to the States. He was scared to dath of going but wanted to find a better job.. He was not into drug but one of the sisters of his ex girl friend and her mother were.
The mother is in jail and the drug dealer sister is in hiding. My young friend happened to be on his way to visit his little 2 year old girl with one of the brothers of hi ex girl friend. They were both kidnapped and tortured to found out where the drug dealer sister was hiding.

Now tell me what are peole supposed to do?
They go to the police about the drug dealers and they get killed because somewhere along the line someone will let out their names. If they do not get killed someone in their family will be killed. Do you think people are cowards for not reacting? Easy to say from a safe spot, not so easy when your life or the life of your love ones are at risk.

Just like in a civil war. people do not know for sure who is a friend and who is an enemy

Please give us a hint on how to fight this ugliness, we would love to hear about it but meanwhile we all mind our own business.

I find your rant extremely selfish so you may have to pay mordida when you come to visit, poor little thing.....

Peter


Aug 22, 2010, 6:21 PM

Post #10 of 51 (3187 views)

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Re: [gene089] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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I have driven all over Mexico, most places, many times. I thought Mexico was a magical place and the Mexican people were a beautiful and gentle people.

The current events in Mexico make me sick and totally disgust me. I now believe the Mexican people are nothing but a bunch of thugs, thieves, criminals, and murderers, and if they individually have not done these things, they are guilty for tolerating these things by others or "looking the other way" after taking a bribe. I do not believe I will ever go to Mexico again. If I am not kidnapped and held for ransom from my family, I will be at least pulled over by dishonest police who will brow-beat me for a mordida or will plant drugs on me and throw me in jail...


You do a very abrupt turnaround for someone with 41 years as a frequent visitor and traveller in Mexico. No one I know is content with the current state of affairs and many comment that Mexico is less safe at present. However, the practices you describe are not new. We've been hearing about those kind of occurrences as a matter of both truths and urban legends for many years.

You state with a sense of almost certainty if you return you will be either kidnapped or falsely imprisoned. I assure you none of those things have happened to me and I have felt no threat of uncertainty about my safety to prompt me to consider leaving Mexico. Perhaps the border cities you visit are currently more unstable than ever, but that is not true in all parts of the country.

If you have overwhelming doubts or uncertainties about coming to Mexico then do not risk it. Better safe than sorry.

Reefhound


Aug 22, 2010, 6:36 PM

Post #11 of 51 (3182 views)

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Re: [gene089] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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I find your rant very odd. Rarely does one see such a sudden 180 degree change like that unless one has been personally affected. Perhaps you were recently kidnapped and released? But if you really have been going to Mexico for so long and come to know the Mexican people as so warm and friendly, how can you think they have changed overnight? As one person mentioned "learning curve", what has happened with this cartel violence has happened in an instant, in historical terms. Society was not prepared for it, had no mechanisms to deal with it, and it takes time to adjust. It's like an outbreak of a disease, a pandemic that overwhelms the defenses until an effective antidote is developed then the disease can be slowly beaten back into submission.

YucaLandia


Aug 22, 2010, 7:10 PM

Post #12 of 51 (3167 views)

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Re: [gene089] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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... I thought Mexico was a magical place and the Mexican people were a beautiful and gentle people.

The current events in Mexico make me sick and totally disgust me. I now believe the Mexican people are nothing but a bunch of thugs, thieves, criminals, and murderers, and if they individually have not done these things, they are guilty for tolerating these things by others or "looking the other way" after taking a bribe...

Sorry, but thanks for letting me vent.

This is Gene089's only post on Mexconnect. Does anybody else suspect that he is just a troll?
Is it reasonable to expect productive dialogue with a troll, or that any troll's opinions should be given much attention?
steve

--
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 22, 2010, 7:14 PM)

Rolly


Aug 22, 2010, 7:31 PM

Post #13 of 51 (3148 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Yes, it's his only post. I am so disgusted that I'm sorely tempted to make it his last post. But I guess i won't.

Rolly Pirate

La Isla


Aug 22, 2010, 7:51 PM

Post #14 of 51 (3139 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Rolly, let's wait and see if he makes a reasoned response to the responses to his initial beyond-the-pale post before thinking about banning him from our (usually) happy home here on the internet.

richmx2


Aug 23, 2010, 12:37 AM

Post #15 of 51 (3110 views)

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Re: [gene089] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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 Keeping it in the same spirit:

I now believe the United State -- people and government -- are nothing but a bunch of thugs, thieves, criminals, and murderers, and if they individually have not done these things, they are guilty for tolerating these things by others or "looking the other way" after both demanding narcotics and demanding to incarcerate the users and tolerating their gun running and money laundering trades. I do not believe I will ever go to United States again. If I am not shot at a 7-11, I will be at least pulled over by Arizona police who will brow-beat me for proof of my citizenship or will tasar me and throw me in jail and hold me until they can turn me over to a for profit prison.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

Reefhound


Aug 23, 2010, 5:45 AM

Post #16 of 51 (3093 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Actually, that view gets expressed here regularly by a number of posters but now that it comes from the other direction most here can see it for what it is worth.

chris cooper

Aug 23, 2010, 6:24 AM

Post #17 of 51 (3080 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Very well put. If there exists another country as hypocritical as the USA, I have yet to find it.

Altahabana


Aug 23, 2010, 6:38 AM

Post #18 of 51 (3070 views)

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Re: [chris cooper] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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The OP posted on a very timely and important topic. What is happening now in NE Mexico should be troubling to anyone who is reasonably informed about the situation. Instead of a discussion about what is actually happening and why, and how it might affect travelers or visitors to the area, the thread predictably produces irrelevant ramblings by Mexophiles with differing agendas.


(This post was edited by Altahabana on Aug 23, 2010, 6:41 AM)

chris cooper

Aug 23, 2010, 6:55 AM

Post #19 of 51 (3057 views)

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Re: [Altahabana] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Where would you like to start this coherent and intelligent discussion? Should the symptoms be treated or should a cure be sought?

There is an overwhelming amount of violence. What does the common Mexican citizen do to combat that? Should there be a return to the days when the cartels were tolerated and there was noticeably less violence?

Should there be a heavy militarization to subdue the cartels and increase the violence in the short term without regards for human rights?

Or should the problem be taken care of at the root which is the huge demand for a substance that is prohibited which leads to the mess the world has been dealing with for several decades with no apparent progress in "winning"?

Isn't it curious to see the way the USA is reacting now that the despicable consequences of their actions has reached their own border and they are finally seeing the destruction up close?

Reefhound


Aug 23, 2010, 7:39 AM

Post #20 of 51 (3028 views)

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Re: [chris cooper] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Symptoms must be treated while a cure is developed and implemented.

I was speaking to a Matamorenso this weekend and he believes the violence won't end until a de facto dictator backed by the U.S. comes to power. Not saying that is my view or the view of many, just one Mexican's view.

I don't see how legalization of marijuana (narcotics will NEVER be legalized, even in Holland) in the U.S. will end the cartels. They are involved in too many other lucrative and illegal activites like human smuggling, prostitution, sex slavery, kidnappings, extortion, piracy, etc.

And even if legalization in the U.S. were the ultimate answer, it's something beyond the control of Mexico. Do you really think it prudent that Mexico sit back and do nothing but resign itself to hoping some other country changes it's laws? Mexico has to face the facts that that is not going to happen anytime soon and proceed with what it can control.

Altahabana


Aug 23, 2010, 8:08 AM

Post #21 of 51 (3003 views)

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Re: [chris cooper] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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When it comes to narco-violence, the best use for this forum is to provide specific information about the violence and discuss the ways people who have to travel through the affected parts of Mexico can avoid or minimize the risks associated with it. Neither you, I nor anyone else who posts here is going to solve the problem with our random thoughts or opinions.

But since you brought it up through a rhetorical question I can tell you what has suppressed the OPEN violence in the city where I live. Heavy militarization with a strategy of aggressive confrontation works in the short term, although it is not without its risks and consequences. You might also want to ask rank and file Mexicans in places affected by the violence whether they prefer the possible human rights violations that might result from military intervention to the documented human rights atrocities the cartels commit daily.

NE Mexico and other parts of the country are not just experiencing a wave of criminal violence. This is a full blown insurgency/ civil insurrection that threatens and is undermining social and economic stability. As a resident of the Tamaulipas frontera, I am not really interested in the esoteric "root cause" coffee table discussion. But I am interested in being able to drive home at night without seeing a cartel convoy on the move or rounding a street corner and not running into a narco retén. I do have an opinion about how the latter is accomplished.


(This post was edited by Altahabana on Aug 23, 2010, 8:12 AM)

Reefhound


Aug 23, 2010, 9:39 AM

Post #22 of 51 (2973 views)

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Re: [Altahabana] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Exactly. The best way to reduce house fires in the long run may be to install smoke alarms and educate about fire safety. But when someone's house is on fire, they aren't interested in any of that, they just need someone to put it out now.

Peter


Aug 23, 2010, 9:45 AM

Post #23 of 51 (2968 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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I don't see how legalization of marijuana (narcotics will NEVER be legalized, even in Holland) in the U.S. will end the cartels. They are involved in too many other lucrative and illegal activites like human smuggling, prostitution, sex slavery, kidnappings, extortion, piracy, etc.

I post comments to my old home town newspaper in Ventura County California. There has been a tremendous increase in the number of marijuana plantations in the forest areas of the county with evidence suggesting they are run by Mexican cartels who are taking their cultivation and manufacturing across the border. Many see passing California's marijuana referendum as a means of ending those plantations and being rid of the cartels there. It is not expected legalization of marijuana would put those cartels out of business but sources estimate the marijuana trade accounts for a very, very large percentage of their income.

There was much less violence in Mexico before escalation of the drug war here a few years ago. Much of the violence may be attributed to various cartel factions being weakened by government war measures and other factions struggling to take over those parts of the market. I would be curious how it would effect the problems we see in Mexico currently if the government were to wash their hands of the US drug war measures, adopt a hands-off approach to the drug trade, focus on keeping peace on the streets, and basically letting the US deal with its own issues about keeping unwanted drugs outside their borders.

I am of the impression the "hands-off" approach would greatly minimize the violence currently being experienced, and opening up to marijuana would greatly increase tourism if the US keeps balking about their pot laws. A little wishful thinking on my part, no doubt, but I would expect a roll-back in violent incidents.

chris cooper

Aug 23, 2010, 9:52 AM

Post #24 of 51 (2963 views)

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Re: [Altahabana] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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When it comes to narco-violence, the best use for this forum is to provide specific information about the violence and discuss the ways people who have to travel through the affected parts of Mexico can avoid or minimize the risks associated with it. Neither you, I nor anyone else who posts here is going to solve the problem with our random thoughts or opinions.

But since you brought it up through a rhetorical question I can tell you what has suppressed the OPEN violence in the city where I live. Heavy militarization with a strategy of aggressive confrontation works in the short term, although it is not without its risks and consequences. You might also want to ask rank and file Mexicans in places affected by the violence whether they prefer the possible human rights violations that might result from military intervention to the documented human rights atrocities the cartels commit daily.

NE Mexico and other parts of the country are not just experiencing a wave of criminal violence. This is a full blown insurgency/ civil insurrection that threatens and is undermining social and economic stability. As a resident of the Tamaulipas frontera, I am not really interested in the esoteric "root cause" coffee table discussion. But I am interested in being able to drive home at night without seeing a cartel convoy on the move or rounding a street corner and not running into a narco retén. I do have an opinion about how the latter is accomplished.

If you are not interested in an esoteric coffee table discussion on the root cause please feel free to abstain from participating.

As far as militarizing the conflict, as far as I can tell it doesn't seem to be having much affect in Monterrey where daily reports of violence are reported. This includes the narcobloqueos, political assasinations and kidnappings such as the attempt on the director of FEMSA where sevral of his bodyguards where killed..

It can as easily be argued that most of this "insurgency" and the escalated violence that the country is now experiencing is a direct result of Calderon's policy of using the military in a larger role in combating the cartels. A decision that even he apparently has deveoped second thoughts about its wisdom.

Reefhound


Aug 23, 2010, 10:01 AM

Post #25 of 51 (2955 views)

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Re: [Peter] Reactions to Violence in Monterrey

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Maybe so Peter, but it would probably end any foreign aid and knock down any remaining resistance in the U.S. to a complete fortification and militarization of the border. Hope those drug tourists wash their clothes well because the dogs will alert to any residue. Calderon might also want to consult with Noriega first.
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