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esperanza

Aug 8, 2010, 7:30 PM

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Jalisco Cuisine...What Do You Think?

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On another thread, tashby posted that maybe he needs to stick to Jaliscan cuisine--regional cooking from the state of Jalisco.
IMHO, Jalisco has no actual food culture, which means that it's tough to experience any really great food that really is from the area.

Having stuck my neck out, it's worth saying that Guadalajara is home to the wonderful torta ahogada. Jalisco has its own style of carne en su jugo, the best of which is served at Karne Garibaldi in the city. Birria is also a local specialty; again IMHO, the best is served at Chololo #4 just south of the GDL airport. Pozole isn't really just a local dish, but the red kind is often great in Jalisco.

Anything else?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

tashby

Aug 8, 2010, 8:53 PM

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Bless you, esperanza. I didn't have the energy to mount this request.

*teardrop*

Rolly

Aug 8, 2010, 8:56 PM

Post #3 of 68 (7991 views)

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Anything else?

Tequila. Let's drink a bite of lunch.

Rolly Pirate

Peter

Aug 8, 2010, 11:49 PM

Post #4 of 68 (7977 views)

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Tequila? Yup, that's pretty darn Jalisco alright, certainly a culinary achievement. It's only tequila if it is made from blue agave and from that region which includes also Michoacán, Guanajuato, and parts of Aguascalientes (?). Otherwise it is just mezcal.

I prefer the pozole rojo and tortas smothered in onions and chile is fine by me. With the number of gringos and gùeros there I am surprised Jalisco is not the center for fusion food innovation. I guess chicken-fried steak with chile gravy doesn't count?

Esperanza, were you speaking of birria de res or chivo? Or is that just birria in general? What is the difference between birria and barbacoa?

Vichil

Aug 9, 2010, 8:39 AM

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Menudo blanco y rojo..Some people love it , others like me can do without it and for drinking tejuino.Cocktail de camarones seems to be different here too more like a cold soup.

esperanza

Aug 9, 2010, 10:41 AM

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Re: [Vichil] Jalisco Cuisine...What Do You Think?

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Menudo, both blanco y rojo, are ubiquitous in Mexico and not regional to Jalisco. Tejuino is also found everywhere in Mexico as well, although it is certainly readily found in Guadalajara--but it's not a food, it's a drink.

Coctel de camarón is made pretty much the same all over Mexico: shrimp broth (either warm or cold), peeled shrimp, diced tomatoes, diced cucumbers, minced chile serrano, minced onion, chopped cilantro, and some avocado. Most people add a little (or a lot) of catsup. After the coctel is served, the diner adds as much or as little limón and picante as s/he cares to.

Here's an article with a recipe. This woman's coctel de camarón is hands down the best I've ever eaten anywhere in Mexico.
http://mexicocooks.typepad.com/...toguadalajarans.html

So: more about Jalisco cuisine? Weigh in, people!

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Peter

Aug 9, 2010, 11:21 AM

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Cóctel de camarrón sauce in most places and homes I visit includes those diced veggies but the liquid is orange soda with ketchup. For me a proper coctail sauce needs to include horseradish but that is not common here.

esperanza

Aug 9, 2010, 11:29 AM

Post #8 of 68 (7922 views)

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Re: [Peter] Jalisco Cuisine...What Do You Think?

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In Reply To

If you're eating coctel de camarón made with orange soda, the people who are preparing it for you are--excuse me--lazy or uneducated cooks.

A 'proper' shrimp cocktail in the USA is as you describe, catsup mixed with horseradish and surrounded by peeled shrimp. That's all but unheard of here in Mexico, so not proper South of the Border.

Try the recipe I posted, I think you will be happily surprised.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

chinagringo

Aug 9, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #9 of 68 (7920 views)

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An article on Jalisco food from MexConnect:

http://www.mexconnect.com/...co-la-cocina-tapatia
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Casa

Aug 9, 2010, 11:57 AM

Post #10 of 68 (7921 views)

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This question peaked my curiosity, so I thought I would look in to it.

I came across this article in La Jornada Jalisco

La cocina jalisciense es una legendaria tradición en la que se conjugan valores y símbolos de la mexicanidad. Entre los platillos emblemáticos de este estado se encuentran la birria, las pacholas, el pollo a la Valentina, cuyo valor no es sólo el de deleitar el paladar y dar a conocer al estado en el extranjero, sino que también son parte del patrimonio inmaterial.

The cuisine of Jalisco is a legendary tradition that combines values and symbols of Mexico. Among the dishes emblematic of this state are the Birria*, the pacholas, the chicken Valentina, whose value is not only to delight the palate and make Jalisco known abroad, but also are part of intangible heritage.

(*Personally I do not really care for Birria and got a chuckle when Google translated it as “Rubbish”)

La birria –de chivo, borrego, cerdo, ternera–, el bote, el pipián, las enchiladas, el tepache, tejuino, el tequila, los chiles rellenos de elote y panela, el guiso de calabacitas, las gorditas rellenas, lomo en cacahuate y en guayaba, el caldo Michi, el pollo a la Valentina, las tortas de chichayote, la capirotada, la sopa de lentejas con plátano, el pico de gallo y, más actuales, las carnes en su jugo y la torta ahogada, son las aportaciones gastronómicas que Jalisco ha dado a México y constituyen su identidad.

Birria-goat, lamb, pork, veal, el bote, pipián, enchiladas, tepache, tejuino, tequila, chilies stuffed with corn and sugar cane, zucchini stew, stuffed gorditas, back in peanut and guava, Michi broth, the chicken Valentina, chichayote cakes, capirotada, lentil soup with bananas, pico de gallo and more recently, meat in their juices carne en su jugo and tortas ahogadas are the gastronomic contributions Jalisco has given Mexico and that make up Jalsico's identity.

In addition according to the article tamales from Jalisco were a bit different as well.
La particularidad de los tamales de Jalisco es que eran de ceniza, en lugar de royal le ponían ceniza de fogón, de la lumbre, para hacerlos más esponjosos, y se envuelven en hojas de caña de maíz frescas. Los rellenan con frijol refrito con chile de árbol, para después ponerlos a cocer en la vaporera, que es un utensilio que México dio al mundo. Los antiguos mexicanos cocían toda clase de guisado. Era una olla de barro, ponían agua en la parte de abajo, después una especie de cama de palitos u hojas de aguacate, encima la carne, con jitomante, chiles, papas y la cubrían con hojas de aguacate, y luego lo sellaban con un plato de barro con masa, para que no saliera el vapor. Lo ponían en la lumbre de tres piedras, debajo la leña ardiendo. La carne con las verduras quedaba exquisita, pero abajo quedaba un consomé de primera”, explica el especialista en culturas populares.

Peter

Aug 9, 2010, 12:15 PM

Post #11 of 68 (7914 views)

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If you're eating coctel de camarón made with orange soda, the people who are preparing it for you are--excuse me--lazy or uneducated cooks.

Your recipe looks delicious. I have eaten plenty of caldo de camarón where plenty of pains are taken to prepare a nice caldo, but most often with cóctel de camarón we are buying cooked and frozen shrimp. Considering the quantities we consume that is not an unreasonable shortcut. Same with the pulpo, which the cóctels we make or that I order in a mariscos restaurant will include as well.

Since we are typically using pre-cooked frozen shrimp there is not broth to use in preparation of the sauce. This seems to apply to what is typically found in many restaurants as well as what I have eaten in many homes. For a long time I was not part of the preparation process and could only guess about what went into them; there was always a little variation of the veggies used but the sauce had a sweetness beyond the ketchup that was escaping my recognition. Finally when it came time for my involvement in the kitchen the orange soda was revealed to me. Now that I am aware of it I find that is very common practice in many homes, even in commercial establishments.

(This post was edited by esperanza on Aug 9, 2010, 12:36 PM)

Vichil

Aug 9, 2010, 4:39 PM

Post #12 of 68 (7880 views)

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Re: [Peter] Jalisco Cuisine...What Do You Think?

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Tequila canbe made from certain municipalities in Jalisco, Michoacan, Nayarit, Guanajuato and Tamaulipas only.

tashby

Aug 9, 2010, 5:41 PM

Post #13 of 68 (7876 views)

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This thread has jogged my memory! About a year ago I was at an event, and there was a booth set up devoted to food. They had cookbooks and stuff....and also, a beautifully photographed and produced poster featuring the "Cuisine of Jalisco". I grabbed one, rolled it up, and threw it in the corner of a room. Just now I've pulled it out and had a look.

The poster is really well done, and includes photos of all the dishes. It was produced by the Gobierno de Jalisco, Secretary of Culture. Here's what the poster has on it:

"Gastonomía de Jalisco"
Collección de careteles del Patrimonio Cultural de Jalisco

Alhondigas Reales
Birria (de chivo, ternera o puerco)
Bote Cocido
Pepian (just like they served at Mario's!)
Carne en su Jugo
Chiles Anchos Rellenos
Gorditas
Lomo en Cacahuate
Caldo Michi
Espinazo con Verdolagas
Torta Ahogada
Enchiladas Tapatias
Pico de Gallo
Pozole
Tortas de Camarón con Nopales
Guiso de Calabacitas
Tortas de Chinchayote
Pacholas
Pollo a la Valentina
Sopa de Lentejas

The poster also includes three beverages:

Tequila
Tepache
Tejuino

Underneath each dish is a very brief description, for example, a certain variety of Pozole indicated. Even so, I think they're playing pretty fast and loose with what they're claiming to be intrinsically Jaliscan. Por ejemplo, the "Enchiladas Tapatias" are described as tortillas maiz enchiladas, fritas y rellenos de queso y cebolla.

Really?

So there you have it. FWIW.

P.S. You folks debating the Coctel de Camarón forgot the one, key, ubiquitous ingredient.......SALADITAS!

(This post was edited by tashby on Aug 9, 2010, 5:48 PM)

Peter

Aug 9, 2010, 9:38 PM

Post #14 of 68 (7830 views)

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Thanks. Tamaulipas really threw me. It was years ago when I became aware of the specific regions that could produce tequila but I was thinking they were all states that bordered Jalisco. I looked it up online to double check that and you of course are correct.

It further went on to say that although these regions can grow the agave and produce tequila only two places outside Jalisco have distilleries that currently produce it, one in Guanajuato and the other in Tamaulipas. I was quite sure about five years ago at our state fair I was given a sample of Michoacán tequila but that may have only been in the sense that the blue agave that produced it was grown here. I can tell you it was not the smoothest tequila I ever drank. My friend who was also given a sample shot had one word to describe it as he was catching his breath after downing that shot, ¡Cabrón!

Peter

Aug 9, 2010, 9:59 PM

Post #15 of 68 (7830 views)

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Saladitas! Of course. It wouldn't be the same without them. Esperanza's article mentions serving the cóctel with saltine crackers and tostadas so I guess we can agree it is kosher. But I will still use Tabasco sauce if it is available, or a habanero salsa.

Do you favor pulpo with shrimp as well? That was never an option in the US but I almost always eat them here. A lot of places may have a third or fourth option to add to their cóctel but the texture of the others don't agree with camarón or pulpo so I don't add those even though I might like them alone or otherwise prepared.

Anonimo

Aug 10, 2010, 1:32 AM

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Re: [Peter] Jalisco Cuisine...What Do You Think?

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Quote

Esperanza, were you speaking of birria de res or chivo? Or is that just birria in general? What is the difference between birria and barbacoa?

Peter;
I'd be interested in the answer to this. My impression at present is that barbacoa is simply mildly seasoned meat cooked in pencas de maguey, while birria is the same meat spiced with an adobo so that the final result comes out more highly seasoned.

In the past, as I understand it, these meats were cooked in "hoyos" or pits dug into the ground, but I think that this practice is not widespread today.

In regard to birria alone, (and this is in Michoacán, not Jalisco, where I've spent very little time.) there are several variations on birria.

We once had a birria de res in Tangancícuaro that to me was a lot like sliced beef pot roast in a thickened, and mild tomato gravy. It was served with a salad atop of onions, lettuce and cilantro. I enjoyed the salad much more than the birria.

There's birria as served in Pátzcuaro which is good; some actually has diced potatoes and carrots in the consomé (Don Prisci's).

There are birria stands on every other street corner. Some may actually be tacos y consomé de cabeza (always beef, in my experience), which I find hard to distinguish from the specific birria made in Pátzcuaro. It always smells great, but so far, that which I've sampled has not been as good as that of the mercado or at the Birrería Don Prisci's by the Estacíon in Pátzcuaro. I like the Don Prisci's located in the front of the mercado, just off the Plaza Chica, and I try to sit at the counter in front of the comal where extra large tortillas are being baked and served.

There's the very different "birria" served at many fiestas here on the rancho where we live, which is chunks of beef on the bone, boiled for hours in a copper cazo with chiles and seasonings. It's always served with sopa de arroz on the side. Sometimes, it can be very good.

I've read of birria in which the meat is briefly glazed in a hot oven before serving. That was, I think, in a Jalisco restaurant. I have never had it prepared that way, but I'd love to try it.

I'm a big fan of both barbacoa and birria. I like the barbacoa with garbanzos in the caldo. Overall I incline more toward birria, but both are terrific when prepared well and chopped without including too many bones. (Once I found some sheep's teeth in my bowl of birria, a sign of authenticity. :-)

If given a choice of an elaborate eggs and chilaquiles breakfast in a nice, sitdown restaurant, or a plato de birria con tortillas hechas a mano, I'll go for the birria.

O.k. What is Birria Tatemada?

Buen provecho,
Anonimo

esperanza

Aug 10, 2010, 2:02 PM

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I was speaking of birria de chivo. As far as I am concerned, the world's best birria is served at El Chololo Birriería Campestre (#4), just south of the Guadalajara airport.

Read all about it:
http://mexicocooks.typepad.com/...%ADa-el-chololo.html.

The kind of bland birria served in most restaurants is not at all to my taste. I prefer mine served dry and glazed, with consomé on the side--just exactly the way El Chololo serves it.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Anonimo

Aug 11, 2010, 4:34 AM

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Oh, yes. That birria El Chololo looks great. We are just going to have to drive to Jalisco before long to sample its specialties.

Saludos,
Anonimo

Hound Dog

Aug 11, 2010, 9:16 AM

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Dawg seconds Esperanza´s praise of the birria at Chololo 4 anonimo. Well worth the drive over from Pátzcuaro - especially on a Sunday afternoon for comida around 2:00 to 3:00PM when the huge grounds are jammed with local families in festive moods and strolling mariachi bands. When it comes to the best Jalisco has to offer, the crowd of revelers is as important as the food and deserted grounds at noon on a Wednesday work day does not get it.

Esperanza also introduced us to Karnes Garibaldi in Guadalajara´s historic center for the house specialty of meat in its own juice - a description that fails to do the fun food at this historic venue justice. For the best experience, go to Karnes Garibaldi for lunch during the workweek at around 2:00PM or later and experience record fast service of ice cold beer and excellent food in a festive and fun atmosphere jammed with locals.

In and around Guadalajara, skip the fancy, pretentious places aspiring to mediocre to really bad European or Asian food ineptly prepared and - when in Rome do as the Romans do for maximum fun and very good food and drink at reasonable prices. Nobody can tell me Guadalajarans don´t know how to have fun eating out. Forget the places foreigners rave about when it comes to local cuisine with the exception of guys like anonimo who take the time and effort to learn about local customs and food preparation.

Dawg has never had what I would consider a good Mexican meal at any restaurant in the area known as Lakeside but I haven´t really tried. In San Cristóbal de Las Casas it is also difficult to find really good Mexican food until one has been there a while since many "Mexican" restaurants in the historic center are either tourist oriented serving swill advertised as Chiapanecan Cuisine or places catering to locals interested primarily in belly-filler beans & rice dishes on the cheap. After a while, however, you catch on and know where to go or eat at home preparing local food.

Dawg´s favorite regional foods in Mexico come from Oaxaca state, the Yucatan and Veracruz but even in cities such as Oaxaca, Mérida, Veracruz and Xalapa, it takes time to find the really good places. Otherwise you end up like so many Lakesiders raving about mediocrity just because the eatery is a dive.

Hound Dog

Aug 11, 2010, 2:11 PM

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Esperanza writes:

A 'proper' shrimp cocktail in the USA is as you describe, catsup mixed with horseradish and surrounded by peeled shrimp. That's all but unheard of here in Mexico, so not proper South of the Border.

While dawg would agree that a shrimp cocktail in Mexico would not normally include horseradish except, perhaps in a resort setting where the restaurant is catering to a U.S. clientele, I would disagree that a "proper" shrimp cocktail in the United States would consist of a sauce made with "...catsup mixed with horseradish...."

A "proper" shrimp cocktail in the U.S. deep south would vary significantly from that defined as proper in Esperanza´s post.

MON LUIS ISLAND SHRIMP COCKTAIL DE DAWG

Start with medium to jumbo shrimp freshly purchased (never frozen nor previously frozen if possible) off a shrimp boat just docked with the day´s catch in Bayou La Batre before the best shrimp are frozen and trucked off to Chicago. Boil these in a broth consisting of celery, yellow onions, fresh lemon including the peel, black peppercorns, bay leaf and Zatarain´s Shrimp and Crab Boil. Boil this mixture for a while to develop its flavor and throw in the shrimp with shells and heads still on bringing the broth with the shrimp back to a boil and immediately removing the pan from the fire and allowing the shrimp to marinate in this broth for just a few minutes. Overcooked shrimp are a travesty.

Remove heads and peel and chill (or not chill) the shrimp as you wish. Then serve with the following:

COCKTAIL SAUCE
Hellman´s or Best Foods Mayonnaise
Hienz Chili Sauce or Ketchup (an inferior "catsup" product may be substituted but Dawg wouldn´t do that)
Capers
Fresh lemon juice

Mix these ingredients according to your taste.

Tashby is correct that an essential accompaniment for this cocktail whether in the U.S. or Jalisco would be "saladitas" or, in the U.S. South, Saltine Crackers.

Some of us would splash on some Tabasco Sauce while consuming this culinary jewel.

Another essential ingredient to make this a truly splendid meal would be "frozen" premium vodka. Several hours before you plan to dine on this concoction, put a bottle of Stoli or another premium vodka in your freezer along with some fine crystal shot glasses. This repast is consumed by alternating shots of icy cold "frozen" vodka straight up - one whole shot at a time - with samplings of the shrimp cocktail and Saltines. A fine meal meant to precede one´s actual real dinner once the shrimp and vodka are depleted. If (as David Crosby said of remembering the 6os) you remember what you had for the main course after the vodka/shrimp orgy, you are holding back.

I´m a big fan of Jalisco-style shrimp cocktails after at first being put off by the often warm broth concoction served hereabouts but, once I became accustomed to this dish, I began to really enjoy it after learning to adjust the flavor to suit my taste from condiments and fresh lime and cilantro served alongside the dish at the table. I have found the shrimp cocktails I have had in Southern Mexico to be somewhat similar to those served in Jalisco and I have enjoyed them all. I do miss that South Alabama treat I describe above but can make it at home except for the fact that all the shrimp I have found in Jalisco has been a pre-frozen product from the Mercado del Mar in Zapopan which is too bad but I´ll stay in Mexico, thank you.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Aug 11, 2010, 2:15 PM)

Peter

Aug 11, 2010, 3:43 PM

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It would seem I stand alone in thinking horseradish is essential to shrimp coctail sauce - except here SOB. I do have to agree with capers, but it seems I am one of the few here that purchase (or even heard of) those and use them in a variety of preparations - including my tuna salad sandwiches.

Mayonaise in shrimp coctail?? OK, but I've never done that before. I use mayonaise... well, quite often. I do not like the very common McCormick's brand so popular here. I had to go beyond the corner tienda to find Hellman's but it didn't quite taste right. A little more searching and I found Best Foods brand here but not even that brand quite hit the mark, lost something in the translation. Finally, and I'm not sure what prompted me to try it since I'm kind of a mayonaise purist, at Sam's Club I came across a brand every bit as good as Best Foods back in the US - here in Mexico! Sauer's. Sauer's (it is worth repeating). I never heard of the brand before but the label says "Since 1887". That is the flavor, and now I never have to leave Mexico ever again.

I can appreciate an exquisite meal from time to time and even treat myself to such when possible, I like haughty cuisine. But facing reality the fact is I like to eat just too much and too often to spend my entire days in the kitchen and not everything of the most superior quality is available at all times. But mostly I have a taste for many very common foods like my tuna sandwiches - even though I add capers to the mix. I am very sticky about textures and whatnot though; soggy french toast just doesn't cut it, it must have a touch of crispness to be right. Some very simple and common foods are the best, when prepared correctly.

Sometimes a cook's secrets are not because they are protected recipes but that if people were told what was used it would destroy the "magic." If I were to start my shrimp coctails with uncooked shrimp I would be using the juices either in that dish or another I was preparing. I stated the necessity to "shortcut" some steps at times and in most cases still produce a tasty end product. I let out a "secret" about adding orange soda to the sauce and it really is better than when leaving it out, but the "cringe factor" is reason enough to claim it a "secret." In revealing such the more snooty food expert might suggest anyone employing such preparations is lazy and/or uneducated.

esperanza

Aug 11, 2010, 4:39 PM

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Anonimo

Aug 11, 2010, 5:33 PM

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When we first came to Michoacán, we "discovered" a wonderful seafood stand, Los Delfines, that used to be on Av. Lázaro Cárdenas, near the corner of Agustín Melgar, next to a parking lot. (A block from the old INAMI.)

I avoid eating raw oysters in Mexico, based on a personal illness history, but I do enjoy shrimp and cooked shellfish.
Los Delfines prepared some of the freshest, tastiest cocteles de camarón ever.

One day I asked the proprietress what was the clear broth she used as part of the preparation.
"Oyster liquid."
"Ulp."

It didn't stop me from enjoying the coctel that day but unfortunately, Los Delfines soon went out of business. I wish I knew what has become of the family that ran it, as they were fine people.

Buen provecho,
Anonimo

chris cooper

Aug 11, 2010, 6:08 PM

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Many years ago when I (mis)spent a good deal of my youth surfing up and down the Pacific coast, I hung out for a time in San Blas where I was befriended by a family that had a busy seafood restaurant on the beach. I helped out with evrything from cleaning and fileting fish to icing down beer and soft drinks in exchange for a place to hang my hammock and keep my belongings.

They prepared their coctel de camaron in the way similar to what you find in most places on the coast but curiously enough they used orange soda to dilute the ketchup. They bought it in large tins and it was thick like tomato paste. They added the orange soda to thin it enough to pour into the glass bottles that were part of the condiments on each table. So it did become an ingredient in many shrimp cocktails but in an indirect way.

Peter

Aug 11, 2010, 6:13 PM

Post #25 of 68 (7652 views)

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Peter, orange soda for shrimp cocktail is not a secret. It's common knowledge, but it's still wrong. If you're not cooking your shrimp so that you have shrimp broth for your cocktail, your cocktail will never be anything but mediocre-to-bad.

Keep in mind that not all people who EAT shrimp necessarily LIKE shrimp. Americans generally like fish that doesn't taste "fishy." Adding broth makes it taste fishier. But for haughty cuisine, yes, you are quite correct.

I have never been invited to a carne asada where I brought a cubeta de cóctel de camarón and had anyone react as if it were mediocre, bad, or anything other than an excellent addition to the affair.

Correct again that orange soda is a common knowledge ingredient but I didn't know that until I came here, my shrimp coctails NOB were a very different formula, and at fiesta time like at many times Mexico is a soda pop society - the Coca-Cola company is not going broke here. The "secret" is what the cook needs to keep to themself or risk getting comments like yours.

My home is full of various cooking utensils, my stove in California was a 48" Viking with comal and asador. I cook foods that look good, taste good, and possess certain qualities, textures, and characteristics I think are important. I make some of the highest standard "common" food you would find.

While my home in another part of Morelia has been under extensive additional construction I have been living in the Centro. In just a few more months - I hate living in a construction zone - my home should be done and I will have put in a commercial kitchen. I should invite you over to a cook-off. Tickets anyone?

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