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mensamia

Jul 30, 2010, 8:10 PM

Post #1 of 81 (15414 views)

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why not just legalize the stuff???

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It is so obvious, if the U.S. decriminalized drugs that would put the narcos out of that business, it would allow the governments to control the quality of drugs and it would increase tax revenues exponentially and get the government out of debt. As well, profits could go to treatment centres and childhood education about the stupidity of drug use as well as prerequisite drug detection systems in all vehicles that would not permit stoned or drunk people to drive. Sure, there will always be a self-destructive portion of society that will abuse drugs but the legalization would save many more lives than todays narco wars are costing. I was told today that too many people in power (in the governments) are profiting with it being illegal, and the illegality of drugs and offshoots like law enforcement, prisons etc supports to a huge segment of employment within the U.S. government so for those reasons, it will never happen. I say those newly unemployed could work in the legal drug factories. I say, if everybody pressures gvt for the legalization, it will happen.
Question 1: will this happen in our lifetime
Question 2: why is it working in the Netherlands and not in the US?
Question 3: what will the narcos do to make a living if drugs become legal?

Don

Jul 30, 2010, 8:22 PM

Post #2 of 81 (15389 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Why would legalizing the sale of drugs put the current drug dealers out of business???
They would undersell the legalized drugs, as theirs would not be taxed. Plus, they will continue to sell to minors.

joaquinx

Jul 30, 2010, 8:25 PM

Post #3 of 81 (15387 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Years ago when organized crime ran the lotteries, they paid promptly and honestly as they realized that this would give confident and repeat customers. Of course, it was illegal and the states and the federal governments did their best to suppress this activity. It wasn't until the states saw that lotteries were a good source of income that they joined in. Organized crime paid off 100%, but states pay a reduced payout or payout the whole pot over 20 to 30 years.

I'll go on the limb and say the drugs will become legal when governments realize that state sponsorship will increase the revenues without having to raise taxes. Look for states with large budgets and high tax rates. California, New York?
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

YucaLandia

Jul 31, 2010, 7:03 AM

Post #4 of 81 (15319 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] why not just legalize the stuff???

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"Organized crime (honestly) paid off 100%, but states pay a reduced payout. . ."

Fun analogy! In what universe did organized crime take no cut?
In that happy state: prostitutes keep every cent that they collect from johns, bookies provide betting services for free (no vigorish), State racketeering police organizations (like the Nevada Gaming Commission) are completely unnecessary because mobsters and casinos run only fair games and never cheat, the mob only murders guys who would have died of natural causes anyway, the mob sells only the purest and highest quality dope and never cut their products with cheap fillers, the mob only sells their dope at their purchase, shipping, & handling costs, the mob supplements the meager pay of only the most deserving and honest civil servants, the supposedly innocent bystanders who are inadvertently shot in mob hits in crowded places likely did things to deserve being shot, we should trust the mob and mobsters implicitly because they never lie and they have our best interests at heart, and finally, the mob does lots of public works and public good with their meager profits because they live like monks with lives of extreme asceticism (following the example their hero: Robin Hood).

Ahhhhhh, now I get joaquinx's point: irony and satire.
Tell people how we would be better off with mob control (absurd?), as a hidden reminder of how corrupt and incompetent government is? Don't most States at least have some accountability to the public and the State uses some of the lottery profits to build and repair roads, maintain parks, and . . . while mobsters do whatever they want with the money?

joaquinx seems to be making the point of whom you trust more: a narco-trafficante who delivers their justice in any way they see fit, dumping the resulting severed heads in public places, or a government official who slowly bleeds the public with many unnoticed taxes and fees (check out the wall of a minimart/gas station in a big city sometime: I counted 18 licenses last time I checked one, including licenses for everything from state sales tax license, local tax license, county tax license, liquor sales licenses, cigarette vending licenses, underground storage tank licenses, health department licenses (to sell hot dogs), yada, yada, yada, on top of the 40 cent per gallon federal gas tax.)

Legalizing dope and taxing dope would clearly lead to more politician's abuse by giving them more public funds to abuse?

Juxtapose Bush/Pelosi/Daley with Capone/Gotti/Los Tres Gallos.

good fun!
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Jul 31, 2010, 7:17 AM)

mensamia

Jul 31, 2010, 7:07 AM

Post #5 of 81 (15315 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] why not just legalize the stuff???

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thanks joaquinx, welcome to a very elite group that includes a bunch of old intellectual fogies like Noam Chomsky, William Buckley, Milton Friedman and probably LOL Cheech and Chong. Here is a great website of police officers dedicated to the legalization of drugs:
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

I tried to donate but because I have a credit card with a Canadian address their system would not accept it. But Americans can certainly donate.

When I read all the testimonials it made me think my friend is probably right. Some powerful people in govt are making tons of money with drugs staying illegal and the number of lives that are lost are insignificant in comparison to their profits.

Altahabana

Jul 31, 2010, 7:12 AM

Post #6 of 81 (15307 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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I don't know whether this is meant to be a serious discussion, but you are dreaming if you think cocaine or crytal meth are ever going to be legalized for recreational use. Decriminalized perhaps, but available for legal purchase no. In any event, legalization or decriminalization of controlled substances are in the range of solutions for the end user country, not the producing or distributing countries.

mensamia

Jul 31, 2010, 7:15 AM

Post #7 of 81 (15303 views)

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Re: [Don] why not just legalize the stuff???

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hmm, spoken like a true capitalist...but I wonder how profitable drug dealing is in the Netherlands, I would guess they have relocated, maybe a sunnier climate...

mensamia

Jul 31, 2010, 7:17 AM

Post #8 of 81 (15298 views)

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Re: [Altahabana] why not just legalize the stuff???

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this is a totally serious topic. Please check out the website for narcotics officers for the legalization of drugs... it is called LEAP and i put the link in an earlier post.

joaquinx

Jul 31, 2010, 7:41 AM

Post #9 of 81 (15283 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Please don't read me wrong. Perhaps I can put away the sarcasm and irony and simply state that governments control what is legal and illegal and can dictate at anytime what is and what isn't. Thus with lotteries so as with drugs. I do not wish to be read as supporting the abolition of all laws criminalizing the use of all reality enhancement drugs. The greatest disadvantage in the use of these drugs is the economic consequences. Users of the real strong stuff can not be productive in the common sense of being employed as they resort to other methods of “earning” money to buy the product, such as theft. Making the product cheaper/free and more available might reduce the number of robberies and thefts. There also is a social problem as it takes a toll on family relationships, but we really don't know how legalization will affect this. Chronic users still have to participate in the economy by paying rent, buying food, clothing, etc. Of course, we can just put up with a sudden growth of “street people.”

My comment on organized crime and their lotteries should have been clearer. They stated that on a certain day and time the winner would be announced and would receive a certain sum of winnings. Of course, they took their big cut, but so does state lotteries. If you hit for 10 million and want immediate payout, they will give you 5 million or you can get the 10 million over a 30 year period.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

Reefhound

Jul 31, 2010, 7:55 AM

Post #10 of 81 (15277 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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"but I wonder how profitable drug dealing is in the Netherlands, I would guess they have relocated, maybe a sunnier climate"

Do some research and find out because you obviously aren't aware that there are more organized crime groups there than any other European country, that there are no legal wholesale sources and the coffee shops get their supply from illegal sources, that drug use among youth has doubled in the last few decades, that a higher percentage of those in prison are for drug crimes than in the USA, that street crime has become intolerable, that they have more police per capita in the cities than the USA, and that social dissatisfaction has resulted in reducing allowable coffee shop usage from 5 to 3 grams along with other new restrictions and bans.

Meanwhile, Sweden has a strict zero tolerance policy and sports among the lowest drug use and crime rates in Europe. So whose model should we follow?

Of course, it is a fallacy to think that a given model can simply transfer to another country whose economics and demographics are completely different.

stevebrtx

Jul 31, 2010, 8:00 AM

Post #11 of 81 (15276 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] why not just legalize the stuff???

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I think it's a great idea, let's not stop there, add rape, robbery and murder to the list of "non-offenses" that will clear out the prisons, saving money and will unload the court system so they can spend more time on really serious offenses. Just think of it as "redistribution" of the good life and there's really no good reason in that case for a finite border either N or S, let it all mix and let's see what comes out of it.

chinagringo

Jul 31, 2010, 8:11 AM

Post #12 of 81 (15270 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Interesting that we have a Canadian saying what the US should do! To compare the Netherlands, with a population of approx. 16M (less than the State of NY), with the US is like comparing apples and oranges. The Netherlands tolerates prostitution too - so does the US need to follow that example also?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

joaquinx

Jul 31, 2010, 8:11 AM

Post #13 of 81 (15270 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Quote

Meanwhile, Sweden has a strict zero tolerance policy and sports among the lowest drug use and crime rates in Europe. So whose model should we follow?

Of course, it is a fallacy to think that a given model can simply transfer to another country whose economics and demographics are completely different.

If I have ever agreed with Reefhound, it's with the above.

Will Americans support the high income tax rate of Sweden and The Netherlands?
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

Gringal

Jul 31, 2010, 8:38 AM

Post #14 of 81 (15252 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] why not just legalize the stuff???

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At the risk of stating the obvious, there is a difference between an adult indulging in drugs, and the acts of raping, robbing or murdering another person.

If someone doesn't know the difference between these things, their brains need to go through a logic wash.

Most adults are capable of deciding whether they want to be drunks, light drinkers or teetotalers without the government instructing them on the matter. Same deal with smoking or doing drugs.

At the same time, in answer to the OP, I don't see legalization of anything stronger than marijuana (if that) happening in my grandchildrens' lifetime. The US has a Puritan tradition.

DavidHF

Jul 31, 2010, 8:42 AM

Post #15 of 81 (15252 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] why not just legalize the stuff???

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The legality and/or tolerance of drugs have no relationship with tax rates. A model of zero tolerance to follow is that of Singapore. Drug smuggling or possession of anything above a very small amount = death penalty. Period. Any questions? BTW, not much crime in Singapore. What would see to us to be minor offenses get a sentence of beating with a cane. Quite the effective disincentive.

joaquinx

Jul 31, 2010, 8:46 AM

Post #16 of 81 (15248 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Way to go David, when in doubt, shoot to kill. Stalin would love this solution.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

colibri1

Jul 31, 2010, 8:47 AM

Post #17 of 81 (15247 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Would you please site your sources for these statements. I had read an article stating that the youth are now highly dis-interested in pot because it is no longer forbidden fruit. The article did also agree with your statement that the coffee houses had to buy from illegal sources, but did not mention any public dis-satisfaction with their existence. I can't remember where I read it, sorry.....in my web wanderings about a month & 1/2 ago. I am very careful about where I click, by the way, there are a lot of bad sources to get "info".

DavidHF

Jul 31, 2010, 8:54 AM

Post #18 of 81 (15240 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] why not just legalize the stuff???

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In Reply To

Way to go David, when in doubt, shoot to kill. Stalin would love this solution.

Take it up with Singapore. BTW, they hang the convicted in the British tradion. As far as I'm concerned either zero tolerance or zero restrictions are fine. It's all this inbetween stuff that causes the mess. Too many ruined lives, too much corruption, and too much money going to waste.

chinagringo

Jul 31, 2010, 9:08 AM

Post #19 of 81 (15232 views)

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Re: [Gringal] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Quoting Gringal: "Most adults are capable of deciding whether they want to be drunks, light drinkers or teetotalers without the government instructing them on the matter. Same deal with smoking or doing drugs. "

On the surface, this statement may be somewhat valid, but lets examine the extension of these decisions. Whether they choose to be drunks or even light drinkers, the problems arise when in a state of impairment, they choose to get behind the wheel of a vehicle. Once their decisions start affecting the "other guy", then the government is forced to step in and start instructing. The same is true for those smoking or doing drugs (legal or otherwise)!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

mensamia

Jul 31, 2010, 9:55 AM

Post #20 of 81 (15221 views)

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Re: [Gringal] why not just legalize the stuff???

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thanks Gringal, hope you are wrong about the legalization of only pot.

The danger of drunk or high drivers was addressed that in my OP.

Think back to prohibition, I bet one of the biggest fears of the teetotalers was the nation would all become alchoholics. Perhaps they even sat around in their long skirts and top hats and debated allowing the soft stuff (beer and wine) and disallowing the hard stuff ( liquour). But somehow sane heads (or should I say capitalism?) prevailed... the nation did not become a nation of drunks and organized crime moved on to other things.

If cocaine and meth and all those other drugs were legal I think that most people are level headed and care about themselves and their health too much to poison their minds and bodies by starting the consumption and those that are already consuming would continue. There is a study on the web site I posted in the opening post that addresses this question. It proposes that if hard drugs were legal, 98 or 99% of non-drug users would continue to be non-drug users. Read the website. Perhaps the fact that it was created by police officers, judges and legal professionals will lend some credibility to those of us who are justifiably cynical.

As a Canadian, of course I would want the decriminalization to happen here also. But it all goes back to my opening post... some powerful people, besides the drug dealers are making enormous profits from the illegality. And the easiest path for the taxpayers is to go along with the status quo instead of rocking the boat.

Reefhound

Jul 31, 2010, 10:02 AM

Post #21 of 81 (15214 views)

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Re: [colibri1] why not just legalize the stuff???

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I'm not wasting my time providing detailed quotes and reference links (which will be discredited as biased by legalization advocates regardless of source) unless it is going to change your mind. The dissatisfaction is self evident from the increased regulation and reduction of tolerance. Shrooms were once permitted and were banned in late 2008. The allowable possession was reduced from 5 grams to 3 grams. Proposals are up to limit "coffee houses" within a certain distance of schools and churches which would put hundreds out of business. Obviously, people were not pleased with the effects of leniency and are tightening things up.

As for usage, drug use statistics are all over the map and vary depending on how you measure. Lifetime use? Last month use? In any event, there has been no dramatic decline in cannabis usage in the Netherlands.

Ok, one reference which you may accept since it from a study by Univ of Amsterdam and contained a few striking observations in the abstract regardless of one's position. "Most probably cannabis use among youth in the Netherlands so far evolved in two waves, with a first peak around 1970, a low during the late 1970s and early 1980s, and a second peak in the mid 1990s." "However, cannabis use also developed in waves in other European countries. Apparently, general national trends in cannabis use are relatively independent of cannabis policy." http://www.parl.gc.ca/...ntation-e/korf-e.htm

Reefhound

Jul 31, 2010, 10:08 AM

Post #22 of 81 (15209 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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"If cocaine and meth and all those other drugs were legal I think that most people are level headed and care about themselves and their health too much to poison their minds and bodies by starting the consumption and those that are already consuming would continue. There is a study on the web site I posted in the opening post that addresses this question. It proposes that if hard drugs were legal, 98 or 99% of non-drug users would continue to be non-drug users."

Not even the Netherlands has legalized hard drugs like that. Let someone else experiment on a smaller scale first. And reversing your cited statistic (which is speculative) that means 1% or 2% of non-drug users would cease being non-drug users, which in a country of over 300 million people means we would have over 3 million to 6 million new drug users.

mensamia

Jul 31, 2010, 11:22 AM

Post #23 of 81 (15183 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Here is the link, you can scroll down for the question:

Here is the zogby poll question which does not qualify as to whether drug users or non-drug users are answering:

"If hard drugs such as heroin or cocaine were legalized would you be likely to use them?"

99% said no.

I would surmise the 1% that said yes are already using. And because that 1% is presently using illegal drugs, they are probably committing crimes to pay for the drugs, and innocent people in the drug producing or drug route countries are dying by the thousands.

For those who missed the link to this very informative website, here it is again:

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

chinagringo

Jul 31, 2010, 12:05 PM

Post #24 of 81 (15172 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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"The danger of drunk or high drivers was addressed that in my OP."

Given your suggestion - I would suggest that you study up on ignition interlock devices and whether the technology can be defeated by those inclined to do so. NM has one of the most stringent DWI/Interlock laws in the US - 1st conviction of DWI mandates the installation of an interlock in the convicted person's vehicle.I have DIRECT knowledge of two individuals who have such mandated installations: 1) one has the basic model requiring blowing into the device to start the vehicle and then on intervals while driving & 2) the other has the more advanced model with a face recognition camera. Neither of these drivers are "rocket scientists", in fact their combined IQ's may be in the low 100's. Both have figured out work-arounds! The basic model is quite easy to defeat by having a designated "blower" as a passenger. It has not been revealed to me how the one with the more advanced system is getting around it but suffice to say that he has. There is always the option of climbing behind the wheel of a friend's vehicle without an interlock device. Neither of these units has the capability of detecting hard drug use. Both have been caught by the system when called in for a random "pee test" and done their ten or so days in jail. Technology is a wonderful thing but there will always be those that will work long and hard to defeat systems!

My second question for all of those advocating the mandating making all drugs legal - have you ever lived in a country that either has no laws against drug use, or has legalized use or has a tacit "look the other way" policy? I can say, that having been in and experienced the visual of wasted humanity in a Hong Kong opium den - it left me with a lasting impression that kept me from using drugs all my life! Additionally, one of my current close friends lost years of his life (while incarcerated for dealing and using meth) and also lost an arm from injecting meth. He is now totally clean but will continue to pay for the rest of his life.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Reefhound

Jul 31, 2010, 12:28 PM

Post #25 of 81 (15165 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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As for interlocks and detection systems and education and treatment centres, none of those measures requires legalization or decriminalization in order to implement. You can be for legalization if you wish but don't try to frame this as EITHER a punishment response OR a treatment response.

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