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Reefhound


Sep 11, 2010, 5:34 PM

Post #76 of 81 (4401 views)

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Re: [mensamia] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Now drug addicts are criminalized instead of being treated as the sick people they are. Being illegal, drugs retain the allure of the forbidden.

Do you really think that legalization is going to convince non-drug users to mess up their lives? I think the same self destructive portion of society will continue to self-destruct but they will have more of a chance of healing if they do not have to hide their problem.


Nonsense. You couldn't possibly have it more backwards.

There are about 4000 drug rehab centers in the U.S. and I'm pretty sure the cops are not cruising their parking lots picking up people entering and leaving. There is no threat of incarceration to the addict who decides they have a problem and checks themselves into a drug rehab program. Would there be potential problems with friends and employers who found out? Possibly, but legalization wouldn't affect this.

The fact is that most addicts won't admit there is a problem and voluntarily seek treatment until thety "self-destruct" and their habit has progressed to the point that their life/health) is messed up and/or it has manifested itself in other problems (DUI/wreck/fight/crime). Furthermore, about half (60% for mj) of rehab admissions are court-ordered as an alternative to incarceration. In other words, many if not most of those getting this "chance of healing" is only because the drugs are illegal. Legalize the drugs, take away the court ordered rehab, and you'll thousands fewer addicts getting help and you'll probably see rehab centers across the country closing down due to lack of business.


Peter


Sep 11, 2010, 5:34 PM

Post #77 of 81 (4400 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] why not just legalize the stuff???

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" Maybe get a real job." Ok, that's it for me, I'm out of here, I don't have the patience, tolerance or time to deal with nativity, stupidity and inanity, you go imagine whatever your 45 years of inhaling makes you feel fuzzy, I'll be sure to recommend you to any drug dealer in Houston that needs an "honest" job - just in case that ever happens in this millennium.


The young "potential criminal" who had not yet chosen his vocation may find an allure to the illicit drug trade for reasons I described, but none I have spoken to have ever fancied going into armed robbery or kidnapping, it's only after they have crossed that line that they start to consider those other vocations. I'll repeat for the hard-of-reading: Drug prohibition promotes a lack of respect for the law and its institutions.

I see the direction we're going here but I'll say I have neither the time, tolerance, nor inclination to go there. I appreciate the exchanges we've had, thank you.


mensamia


Sep 11, 2010, 8:04 PM

Post #78 of 81 (4385 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] why not just legalize the stuff???

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"When it comes to the pre-teen aspect - take a look at just how well the Abstinence from Sex Programs worked! Just who is trying to fool who here? Hell, the US cannot even get their faulty educational system under control! Secondly, take a hard look at the number of highly educated doctors, who should certainly know better, that have fallen into the clutches of drug addiction."


Teaching abstinence from sex to a hormonally charged teenager is trying to thwart nature... it just doesn't work. But teaching pre-teens about the devastation of drugs, the effects on their bodies, showing them an arm full of absesses or the clawed skin and deteriorated brain of a meth addict, like the blackened lung of a long term smoker will be a powerful deterrent if done effectively.

"Secondly, take a hard look at the number of highly educated doctors, who should certainly know better, that have fallen into the clutches of drug addiction."

Doctors can be self-destructive also but they are the exception, not the rule.

"I have to wonder just how a Canadian feels qualified in attempting to tell the US what they should do? I would have the same question for the US to be attempting to tell either Canada or Mexico just what they should be doing! Each Country is a sovereign nation and they each have to make decisions based upon what works best and in the best interests of their citizens."

Einstein said 'nationalism is an infantile disease' and I agree. I am speaking as a human, not as a Canadian, Mexican or American. And since the US is the largest and closest consumer of the drugs, I mentioned the US in my OP. But I do not limit my pro-legalization to any one country.

And Peter, I would never close my own post. :)


mensamia


Sep 11, 2010, 8:15 PM

Post #79 of 81 (4383 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] why not just legalize the stuff???

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"In other words, many if not most of those getting this "chance of healing" is only because the drugs are illegal. Legalize the drugs, take away the court ordered rehab, and you'll thousands fewer addicts getting help and you'll probably see rehab centers across the country closing down due to lack of business. "


Probably redundant but... there will always be a self-destructive element in society, a portion who will leap off the cliff. The industries built around these people include the illegal drug trade and the rehab centres. The rehab centres are not responsible for 28000 collateral deaths, the illegal drug trade is. You cannot help all those who are self-destructive, only some. And the rehab centres do help and will continue to help some. But you can prevent another 28000 collateral deaths.


Peter


Sep 11, 2010, 10:13 PM

Post #80 of 81 (4372 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] why not just legalize the stuff???

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True, but the discussion here is on the legalization of drugs and I'm still waiting to hear exactly how that is going to stop the cartels and criminal activity in MX - not to mention NOB. If you take an extreme example and legalize murder, what would be the result, more or less?

But just think... you would have much fewer people in jail for murder. So everything is fine, right? And murderers would be able to confess their acts and get the psychological help they need without the fear of prosecution and incarceration. Who knows? Maybe the thrill of killing would be diminished without the risk of getting caught and sent to prison.


Some might view that as a flippant response but parts of that are going in a direction I proposed many years ago and still believe. Albeit murder was the most extreme example it was among the easiest to reconcile. Some people have already accepted murder as an acceptable behavior in their world.

Why not murder? Why a worldwide ban on any type of human behavior? I could only draw the line at the protection of children, of minors, but I would suggest that those minors should be granted a choice at what age they wish themselves to be emancipated into an anything-goes world either through their own decision or implied by an emerging pattern of behavior.

I cannot think of anything more just than to permit murderers live amongst other murderers in their own murdering society, free to make their own way, free to live as they have chosen, and free to die by another's hand. I believe thieves should be permitted to live among thieves in their own society of thieves, actually, sent to live among thieves.

Is there a human aberration too heinous to not permit those of like mindset to structure their own society and live as they have chosen? I could only think of the need to protect children, and then only to an age until their demonstrated behavior has decided how they wish to conduct their lives or have made a decision to live in a given manner. This need not apply only to so-called societal aberrations but to any form of liberty one may choose, gay persons in a gay society, pot smokers with those who may wish to live in a society devoid of pathetic anal-retentive boozers, etc. ad nauseum.

Some would gladly live among those of like mind while others more violent or dangerous may need to be contained, others only contained somewhat. A true citizen of the world through demonstrated impeccable behavior may earn a visa to visit those most rigidly strict capitol cities of the world or any place of their choosing but subject to those societies' norms.

How would a place come to be chosen as the murder or thievery capitol of the world? Simple, some already are. Their crime statistics already show certain cities to have, however reluctantly or by choice, exhibited certain patterns of "accepted" behavior and that would be the starting point, the "good people" would need to relocate and facilitating their move would become the task of those who were displaced from their jobs in the "old system" of justice.

A potential murderer may likely not elect his society prior to his decisive offense and a new system may still have societal "mishaps" along the way as people demonstrate their bent, but society as it is now has plenty of these mishaps on a daily basis. Law enforcement would have the task of finding their culprit and the justice system would have the task of placing them where they belong; a murderer's death sentence would be to remand him to his city of murderers. His loved ones could accompany him if they chose to do so and were of an age to make that decision. I am speaking of a system of liberty and justice for all.

And for a few "hopeless" drug addicts that wanted no more than to waste away their lives in a drugged oblivion? I would be happy to pay the taxes it would cost to house them in old abandoned prisons and waste away in ther cells, fed and drugged at taxpayer's expense until their death or decision to change their lives. It would not cost nearly what the justice system costs now, a small price to give them liberty, pursue their happiness, and get them off the streets.

That is a nutshell idea, or some kind of nutty idea, but I don't think it would be difficult to facilitate. And I agree with you, fewer people in jail and everything is fine. I am not being flippant.


(This post was edited by Peter on Sep 11, 2010, 10:48 PM)


mensamia


Sep 12, 2010, 7:04 AM

Post #81 of 81 (4357 views)

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Re: [richmx2] why not just legalize the stuff???

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Assuming this is normal consumer behavior, it basically means that U.S. marijuana legalization (and/or decrimininalization) won't materially affect Mexican gangsters as much as it will Mexican agriculture. It might even be a boon to Mexican gangsters, as more and more Mexican farmers lose their only profitable crop to U.S. industrialized agricultural corporations.
http://mexfiles.net


Why wouldn't the Mexican farmers benefit from the longer growing season in Mexico?
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