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Gringal

Jul 25, 2010, 11:25 AM

Post #26 of 48 (7409 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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....Whatever certainty lets you shlepp, or sleep. (grin).

I think a New Orleans style jazz funeral is a grand gift to the folks left behind, no matter what. Lot to be said for a good old Irish wake, too.

And let's not forget the great celebrations on the Day of the Dead......where grandad's grave is decorated with his favorite tequila, goodies...and everybody comes to visit. I like it.

robt65

Jul 25, 2010, 11:34 AM

Post #27 of 48 (7403 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Afternoon Gringal,

I agree. It is a gift to those left behind, a wake if you will. I wasn't sure if this would seem disrespectful in the Mexican culture not. I had not seen (a yet) any such (jovial) music in a Mexican funeral. Usually the processions I have seen have been a small choir with solemn church music only)

robt65

Gringal

Jul 25, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #28 of 48 (7396 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Why not send up an opinion balloon among your Mexican friends and neighbors? They might think it's a grand idea.
Or not.........who knows?

mensamia

Jul 25, 2010, 1:31 PM

Post #29 of 48 (7379 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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the last comment was said with a smile, sorry you didn't take it the right way.

wendy devlin

Jul 25, 2010, 4:48 PM

Post #30 of 48 (7346 views)

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Re: [mensamia] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Birth and death...are about as personal, an experience as one can have.

Shrouded in belief, and cultural background.

Have been present at more than a dozen entries, into this good ol'/bad ol' world. Only three of them, my own children.

And present at a couple of departures both in Canada and Mexico
The latest, a few months back, being a near neighbour in Canada who hung himself in this barn.
Myself and arbon by association, making the 911 call and dealing with the widow, the police investigation, coroner, etc. in the following days/weeks.

Leading me to state again, death is a highly personal experience.
There can be a solemn religious/belief side, a Black humor side...and then the practical side as in who to call to obtain a legal death certificate, how to proceed, settling the estate etc.

Plus the government's side..........Dead men/women DO pay taxes!

And sometimes the deceased receives junk MAIL for up to ten years, after:)

Of course, there's way more to dying than my tongue in cheek description above.

However, it's always, slightly amazes me, how many people in my experience, fail to prepare themselves for the 'eventual'.

And leave, from my experience, their heirs to deal a bit of a tangled mess, which often drags on for years. It was this way in my Canadian experience, but it was quite an education to witness several Mexican estates, in the process of settlement. Hmmmmmmmm...there was the legal wife, and then the other 'wife'(s) with children and claims to the estate. Then, there was the the no-small matter of property owned by the maternal grandmother, BEFORE, she married the maternal grandfather...what she bequeathed to her daughter...what the grand-daughters/sons thought was their due inheritance...from their mother's (colonial heritage)side...and their expectation of their widowed father, would give them, re property while he still lived. And then the little sticky wicket, that he married again(against the five daughter's approval) but supported by the two sons, to a much younger woman, with whom he had two children.......................

The paragraph above, means to hint at the complexity, or perhaps soap opera nature of some people's lives.

Then there's our daughter's suegra.......and the complexity of relationship within another extended family clan.

Both in life...and as I'm somewhat not so expertly presenting here....in death...unto future generations. Elephants are famed for not forgetting.
So, it seems to me, are people.

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Jul 25, 2010, 4:52 PM)

robt65

Jul 25, 2010, 8:22 PM

Post #31 of 48 (7306 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Thanks for Your Well Written and Digested Remarks Wendy,

I appreciate it as an extended answer to my original question regarding plots.

You said:. . . . . "However, it's always, slightly amazes me, how many people in my experience, fail to prepare themselves for the 'eventual'.

And leave, from my experience, their heirs to deal a bit of a tangled mess, which often drags on for years. It was this way in my Canadian experience, . . . . . . "

I could not agree with you more. This is exactly what stimulated my original question. I am much older than my wife, I have no other relatives around to leave anything to or for them to pay for any of my expenses. I sure do not wish for my (Mexican) family to have to be put in such a situation.

I am trying to prepare all things necessary, for an easy as possible transition from my life to death for my wife and our children. I am taking care of having in place a burial site that my very young children, wife and maybe (who knows) her family and friends can go to, to share some time especially with our children. As they are my legacy, I am part of their history. I hope their mothe will be able to say . . . . . "He was a responsible and committed father and husband. He took good care of us in life, as well he has planned and is taking care of us and our future as best he could after his death."

I hope to have all the necessary paperwork for my heirs portion of my (USA) pensions in place, that will afford my wife and our children a little easier time of it, after I am gone. It is a great relief to me to learn that both my wife and our children will have some percent of both my Disabled Military Veteran Pension ( especially for their education and some subsistence allowance for my wife and the children) as well as my Social Security and another pension, that also will provide a little each month for my family. All in all they will be provided for fairly well . . . . . . but only if I have all in place, as much as possible, before I checkout of this old world.

This in our personal circumstance, means having someone who is bi lingual on both sides of the border, that I can trust to assist my wife who speaks little English. It also means, that since I am also caring for my mother-in-law and my father-in-law at our home, that I am the only one who can possibly do anything (financially) about planting their lovely souls in a grave site somewhere. As they are also their legacy, they are part of their history. I hope to make very sure that all bases are covered before I go, for the sake of my wife and children.

This is a much bigger task than one would imagine, especially with the need for two wills (one in the USA and the other in Mexico) both in English and Spanish, with all papers requiring notario and probably better off to have them apostiled, and have them in a safe place. This then gets into bank accounts both here in Mexico and in the USA, as well as rel estate. So I have to then have an Administrator, or a combination of an Administrator / Power of Attorney of my will, especially so the gov't won't hold things up for an eternity (pardon the pun) .

So far I have been lucky . . . . . . . I am still alive and kicking to some degree . . . . . but let's face it, at 69 today ,I am on the downhill side! I have lined up a (singular) lawyer who I have already made arrangements with, that can practice both in Mexico and in Texas, and for a fixed fee. I am now completing the paperwork, (still looking for a person of good moral character here) (sorry Hound Dawg! LOL) to be my Mexican Power of Attorney. I do not wish that person to be the same person as the lawyer, fairly good guy that he is. I have my Power of attorney on the USA side. Now I have to find the kind of plot that Rolly has described (and pictured) to me in this post. That is exactly what I am looking for. I will look into this more after August for several reasons.

All of these things may seem quite easy, but beware, I tell you they are not. You will be very surprised, as to how complex these issues can be.

For now I have to start trooping around and find a place such as the lovely place that Rolly has so graciously shared in his photos earlier in this post. (thanks again Rolly) that is exactly what I am looking for.

And thank you Wendy for the in depth writing of responsibility and commitment to our spouses and familys.
My point(s) being that Wendy is entirely correct. There is much to do, if you respect your family and are really responsible to them in every way. It sure is not a picnic, so all I can suggest . . . . . is to start early folks, there is more work to be done, than you can begin to imagine.

All of this work in the present life is surely enough reason I wish to have some music, and a drink or two available for my family and friends after the blessed event!

Gracious Dios!
Robt65

Robt65

(This post was edited by robt65 on Jul 25, 2010, 8:41 PM)

skier14

Jul 26, 2010, 5:37 PM

Post #32 of 48 (7247 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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I am in about the same situation as Robt65 except older (76).After I figure out the best way to deposit directly my pension and eventially her share to our Banamex account, I need to find a way to instill in her mind that it will be necessary for her to file U.S. Income Tax or risk not receiving money. I am very afraid that filing is going to be too much of a problem. Of course she knows that we file now, but she has no responsibility except to sign. We don't have to pay, but we have to file. I have no more assets in the U.S. except two small bank balances where my SS check and pension is deposited and all the assets (two houses one car) in Mexico are in my wife's name. My U.S. plated 1996 Neon is in my name and when I am ready for inmigrado (2 yrs) I will legalizado it to her name. The Banamex account is in both names. I will make a Mexican Will soon to outline death plans. Put the ashes in the ocean. SUCH IS LIFE

robt65

Jul 26, 2010, 5:52 PM

Post #33 of 48 (7239 views)

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Re: [skier14] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Hi Skier14,

It's true. There is much to be done. There is such a huge cultural gap, not only in taxes but also in many other things that it would be very easy for people in the USA (and in Mexico) to take advantage of her during such a time. It's the teaching thing and being punctual about filings and necessary reports, etc. that will difficult for the "mañana mentality" of the Mexican culture, that she has been raised in and is used to now. This is not as easy as we would assume it to be. Oh well, it will come with time, I hope! (smiling)

Robt

(This post was edited by robt65 on Jul 26, 2010, 5:55 PM)

Ustlach

Jul 27, 2010, 12:57 PM

Post #34 of 48 (7174 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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I have tried to speak to my wife about such an event as I do not wish for this to be a financial burden on her or our other family members. All she wants to do is to NOT speak about it. Don't Mexicans plan for such an event? Is this a cultural thing?

I got a kick out of this because it hits so close to home.

First off, I have never known any Mexican to plan ahead for anything. You really can't talk about Mexicans and making plans for future eventualities in the same sentence without creating total cognitive dissonance.

I have not even begun to think about my "final arrangements" because I can't bear to think about the harangue it is going to start with my Mexican partner. No way he will ever think about it, let alone talk about it with me.

It was literally like pulling teeth to get him down to the notario last September to get a will drawn up so that when I shuffle off this house and the stuff in it, indeed, anything and everything I possess in Mexico will be his. It was only the half-off logic that finally got him to consider it.

And I am totally confused after reading all the posts on this thread so far. Rolly says, that at least in Lerdo, you can buy a plot for 300 pesos, and other posters explain than you can only rent a plot for a few years and then you get dug up, cremated, and moved to some common area.

Given the cost of land in Mexico to build a house on, I can't imagine buying and owning in perpetuity even a small piece of land to be my grave; certainly not for 300 pesos. I am going to tell my partner to schlepp me down the stairs and plant me under my Valencia orange tree, my favorite possession in Mexico, and just keep his mouth shut. I am sure doing that, while it might be highly illegal even in Mexico (when do Mexicans ever worry themselves about legalities?), will make more sense to him than planning ahead for a more traditional and permanent place for my remains.

And it will appeal to him that on Day of the Dead he can just through me some frijoles de fiesta (my favorite Mexican food) out the front door and be done with that.

robt65

Jul 27, 2010, 1:55 PM

Post #35 of 48 (7163 views)

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Re: [Ustlach] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Thanks for the chuckles Ustlach,

You said: "First off, I have never known any Mexican to plan ahead for anything. You really can't talk about Mexicans and making plans for future eventualities in the same sentence without creating total cognitive dissonance." EXACTLY!!!! . . . . . . Sure everything is fine. . . . . . . until . . . . the day arrives that they have to make some decisions and then they complain about all the unnecessary efforts that had to be done! (smiling)

You also said: "And I am totally confused after reading all the posts on this thread so far. Rolly says, that at least in Lerdo, you can buy a plot for 300 pesos, and other posters explain than you can only rent a plot for a few years and then you get dug up, cremated, and moved to some common area." . . . . . "Given the cost of land in Mexico to build a house on, I can't imagine buying and owning in perpetuity even a small piece of land to be my grave; certainly not for 300 pesos."

I have so far found information that it really does indeed vary from state to state. But stop and think a minute . . . . . I have seen virtually in every city and town graveyards that have head stones simple and fancy that are dated many, many years ago.

So I searched a little deeper (pardon the pun) and found that indeed, there are many different ways to having a grave site in almost (if not all) states in Mexico. (Tell me a city or pueblo for that matter or any state in Mexico, where there are no really dated headstones?) I do not believe there are any. So again I started checking around and found that there are similar places (burial sites / grave yards) the very same as Rolly so kindly provided photos for. They indeed can be bought and kept for perpetuity. I just can't seem to find anyone who can tell me a price for them. I do know it is up to the family to maintain the area within the curbed perimeter. I am sure the amount for such a large curbed place for lets say 4 to six spaces would be more than $300. How much more? . . . . . I don't know!

I have a very good Jewish friend that keeps telling me that he wants to be buried at a steep angle standing (so to speak or almost) and pointed in the direction of his bank, which is just across the street from the graveyard! He keeps telling me he wants to keep an eye on his investments! He is indeed a character. He is a great friend with a great sense of humor.

I have another friend in México who tells me to make sure he is buried very deep so the street dogs don't take him home for a snack! Believe me, when you start trying to be serious about this subject, you get everything but the answers.

robt

jengelbach

Jul 28, 2010, 1:11 PM

Post #36 of 48 (7075 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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I suppose the phrase I've put in bold in the statement "I have never known a Mexican to ... [fill in the blank]" qualifies these words as a simply a reflection of one's limited personal experience, rather than as the rather insulting generalization it might otherwise seem to be.

Perhaps humor was intended, but that's not how it came across to me.

==================
Jerry Engelbach
estudio@jerryengelbach.com

robt65

Jul 28, 2010, 1:45 PM

Post #37 of 48 (7069 views)

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Re: [jengelbach] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Hello jengelbach,
That characteristic remark "tongue in cheek" as was said by a commenter to my post (that I whole heartedly agree with) certainly was not intended to belittle, denigrate, or for that matter to underestimate the Mexican national) It was never said in that light and I think most readers by the tone of the conversation would easily have understood that inflection, especially if they took the time to read my salutation. However, for those of you whose vision is so narrow as to not also understand that we Irish are also joked about for our two fisted drinking, and the amorous" powers of the Italians and Frances (in their minds only) are supposedly well known, and every other nationality having their own idiosyncrasies, take a minute to laugh at ourselves. All nationalities are known for some trait or another and assigned a phrase in a loving manner and not a derogatory one and that is not meant as a disparaging remark. I am married to a Mexicana national whom I deem to be extremely nationalistic, intelligent and engaging. She is the one who brought that characteristic (for want of a better word that may satisfy your particular taste, because that is haw she put it) to my attention. It is no different than the phrase Mañana is a Mexican trait. I reality many of us could be better off to perhaps subscribe to that one ourselves at some times. So get over it, and loosen your tie and relax a little. Smile and the whole world will smile with you. Robt

jengelbach

Jul 28, 2010, 2:52 PM

Post #38 of 48 (7053 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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robt65,

It's possible that if I knew you or Ustlach better I might understand that remark in a different light. But read cold it sounds derogatory.

Each of us can joke about our own ethnicity, but we tread dangerously when we joke about others'. Too many people have condescending, patronizing, or outright racist attitudes for me to automatically pass over such a statement from someone I don't know.

Similarly, you don't know me, don't know about my sense of humor or the width of my vision, or have a close enough relationship with me to advise me to "get over it."

Since this is a public forum rather than a private group of friends who "get the joke" I urge a little more caution.

— Jerry Engelbach

==================
Jerry Engelbach
estudio@jerryengelbach.com

robt65

Jul 28, 2010, 2:56 PM

Post #39 of 48 (7051 views)

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Re: [jengelbach] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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To each his own . . . . that is the beauty of it . . . . isn't it? Sure hope that we all don't start getting offended to the word "Gringo" or we're all in trouble!

Disclaimer: (SMILING) (TONGUE IN CHEEK)

robt

(This post was edited by robt65 on Jul 28, 2010, 3:00 PM)

jengelbach

Jul 28, 2010, 3:45 PM

Post #40 of 48 (7038 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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Well, I'll tell you, we went to buy a mattress (where we live, in Pátzcuaro) and in talking to the guy who sold it to us we referred to ourselves as gringos, and he got upset, as he felt we were denigrating ourselves.

As I say, among friends or others of the same ethnicity, we use terminology that is ironic and even self-deprecating. But if a white man refers to a black man he doesn't know and uses "nigger," it's nowhere the same as when it's used between African-Americans or close multi-racial friends.

==================
Jerry Engelbach
estudio@jerryengelbach.com

mensamia

Jul 28, 2010, 6:01 PM

Post #41 of 48 (7020 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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thanks Wendy for your reply. I think I will stay away from posts by this poster as the only sense of humor that seems to be allowed is his. (said seriously and with a smile)

rvcycleguy

Jan 4, 2011, 11:32 AM

Post #42 of 48 (5288 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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My mother and father retired to Guanajuato in 2001 to live the rest of their lives there. That worked out for my father. While visiting a garden nursery for rose bushes in Silao one Saturday morning, he fell over dead. Ambulance came, took him to the funeral home. Shop owners closed the business and assisted my mother with the details for Sunday and Monday. We were informed that if no prior arrangements had been made to return him to the US, we had 72 hours to cremate. This was done on Monday by 12 noon. I arrived the next day and took mother to San Miguel de Allende to the American Consulate agent to get the necessary documents for a US death certificate. State Farm Insurance will not honor Mexican documents for death benefit. Must be a US document. We completed the application process and provided the necessary Mexican documents and sent the package to DF, American Embassy. Took 6 weeks for the US package to arrive in US at her new home in San Antonio.

I had to cancel the long term lease on the home they lived. I had to sell the Mexican Nissan. Had to get the original bill of sale from the local Nissan Dealer to sell it due to my father could not transfer title after death. We left money on account with CFE for electric, gas compnay, telephone compnay and cable TV company so the owner of the house would have not charges left over at the end of the month.

Please be prepared for death circumstances if you choose to live and die in Mexico.

robt65

Jan 7, 2011, 9:00 PM

Post #43 of 48 (5159 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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In Reply To

Robt65,

You might enjoy a little visit to Las Momias de Guanjuanto, some day.

Thanks to many people dying over the centuries, a lack of cemetary space, plus an interesting mineral calcification process in the area...
AND a number of families being unable to pay for continued cemetary space for their ancestors.

There's an entire, quite unusual Museo, dedicated to our mortal remains:)

Been there and done that Wendy . . . wasn't impressed especially the guy in the black socks and BVD's! (tongue in cheek)

robt

(This post was edited by robt65 on Jan 7, 2011, 9:11 PM)

robt65

Jan 7, 2011, 9:52 PM

Post #44 of 48 (5145 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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To One and All,

Well, we (my family and I) think we have it figured out. As some of you may know we have bought the house and the adjacent lot for expansion as well as a second adjacent lot. As for the second lot we plan to have a memorial garden on part of it. Some of the family wish to be cremated and some do not and wish for a standard box in the ground. We all have our pets from a couple of peach faced parrots to a cat and dogs. We all have all decided that they also will be buried (in one form or another) with us since they are such a part of our families daily lives. We have decided and agreed that the remaining family will honor the deceased family members wishes. Since the memorial garden will have sufficient space, we have all sat down this week and in our own private time written our wills and wishes.

As for the "planning ahead by Mexicans" comment that someone took offense to (sorry you had your take on the comment) anything can be turned around as we all know.

Wendy, you brought a lot of our families discussion up in a good way . . . . . thanks for that. We discussed several of those possibilities, over several days. My family really wants a "forever home" for generations to come. This is another reason that we acquired the second parcel of land, so the children would have room to build their own homes, on family grounds, if they so wished. We all agreed to that in our own wills.

Rolly, your remarks about the different types and costs of burials in Mexico, had us all thinking very much. This added much to the reason we have decided to have our own private memorial garden. Thanks for that insight.

skier14 . . . I was able to find out through my attorney that (at least in the state of Kentucky), we could provide our lawyer with a power of attorney, that would provide him with the right to sign for my wife and or children for such things as income tax and other not so fun things, that need to be tended to such as also paying the property taxes on any remaining NOB real estate. We created a trust with the bank and our NOB attorney to assist in such matters. Maybe it is not perfect, but for us, and for now, it is the option with the most wisdom to fulfill our final wishes and insure care for my wife and children at this time. Our trust has a five person group of friends both NOB and SOB to meet every six months by e. mail; somewhat similar to a shareholders meeting if you will. Only time will tell if we have made the right choices.

Now, we are also having really great family discussions about the memorial garden and everyone has contributed something that will be used in that family memorial garden. Such discussions have been a real turnaround for my wife and brought her and her parents a little closer together (if that was at all possible). They had wishes that (before our family discussions) my wife was not aware of, and she of course wanted to adhere to their wishes. All in all this is probably a good, if in the beginning, not the easiest, of family discussions to get started. Surprisingly, all of us (in one form or another) had similar last wishes, unknown to the others in the family.

Thanks for all who positively participated in this posting. Almost all of you contributed some food for thought for our memorial garden.

robt65 & Family

richmx2

Jan 8, 2011, 7:13 PM

Post #45 of 48 (5059 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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That remains to be seen. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

robt65

Jan 8, 2011, 9:40 PM

Post #46 of 48 (5038 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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richmx2,

What do you feel "remains to be seen"? Care to explain?

robt65

(This post was edited by robt65 on Jan 9, 2011, 12:06 AM)

richmx2

Jan 10, 2011, 3:50 AM

Post #47 of 48 (4944 views)

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Re: [robt65] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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A very, very bad pun on the prospects of ending up as "Mummy Dearest"

http://mexfiles.net
http://editorialmazatlan.com

rvcycleguy

Jan 10, 2011, 8:09 AM

Post #48 of 48 (4917 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Living, Working, Retiring . . . . . . . and Dying? in Mexico

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as my father always told me...

"I want the check to the funeral home for my burial to bounce, that way I will have spent it all!!!!"

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