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chinagringo

Jul 18, 2010, 1:50 PM

Post #1 of 63 (3961 views)

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This has got to stop - revisited

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Back in May, there was an incident of a shootout in a bar in Torreon. Seems that there was a similar incident again in the early morning hours today. This time 17 killed and 18 wounded by the following report:

http://www.milenio.com/node/489745
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

chicois8

Jul 18, 2010, 5:12 PM

Post #2 of 63 (3899 views)

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SEATTLE - At least one gunman opened fire during a party at a state park near Seattle Saturday night, killing two men and wounding four others, authorities said.
Two dead, four wounded at Lake Sammamish State Park Seattle Times

http://www.king5.com/...4.html?commentPage=1

Unfortunately people kill each other everywhere in the world........

Casa

Jul 18, 2010, 5:51 PM

Post #3 of 63 (3878 views)

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Busy weekend for shootings at parties (not only in Mexico) ………………

There was also a shooting at a party in Sacramento California that left a 14 year old girl dead and a 17 year old girl wounded. http://www.sacbee.com/...-in-teens-death.html

Also in California, A party in a Discovery Bay neighborhood turned bad early Sunday morning after three suspects opened fire and sent three people to the hospital, police said. http://www.mercurynews.com/...45717?nclick_check=1

One person died and another was hospitalized early Sunday morning after a shooting at a party and subsequent shooting involving Denver officers at the same address. http://cbs4denver.com/...enver.2.1811358.html

San Antonio One teenager was killed and two others were injured early Sunday in a shooting during a party at a North Side apartment complex, authorities said.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/...ooting_98699269.html

Boston Two men were shot early Sunday morning outside of a house party in Lowell. http://www.myfoxboston.com/...house-party-20100718

A Columbus, Ga. man was shot multiple times as he left a birthday party at a lounge in nearby Phenix City, Ala. http://www.sfexaminer.com/...-party-98710504.html

SAGINAW, Mich. -- Saginaw police are investigating a shooting that injured a 14-year-old boy late Thursday night. Investigators said it happened around 11:30 p.m. on the city’s east side while the victim was attending a birthday party at a home on South Warren. http://www.wnem.com/news/24288199/detail.html

Memphis Hickory Hill House Party Shooting. The shooting occurred just after midnight on the 4800-block of Bridgedale near S. Perkins and Knight Arnold in the Hickory Hill area. When officers arrived on the scene, 18-year old April Moody was found lying in the carport suffering from a gunshot wound.
http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/...house-party-shooting

Unfortunately he list goes on and on but I got tired of copy and pasting…….

Hound Dog

Jul 18, 2010, 6:16 PM

Post #4 of 63 (3861 views)

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The key to understanding both the Seattle and Torreon killings is that the Seattle shootings were suspected gang killings as those murdered were known Asian gang members and, in all likelihood the Torreon massacre, during which 120 rounds were fired from automatic assault weaons was almost certainly gang related as well and these mass killings are facilitated by the unconscionable laws in the United States making assault weapons easily available for purchase and distribution to the killing fields of Metropolitan Seattle and Mexico. These incidents make it compelling that most popular drugs be legalized and distributed cheaply and freely to adults (18 and over) under governmental control and assault weapons be banned. There would still be killings but just like recent highly publicized killings in China where knives are the favored weapon as guns are outlawed, the assailants would have had to have stabbed or shot some 30 people one by one. Some of them would, in all likelihood still be alive and unwounded.

johanson

Jul 18, 2010, 6:51 PM

Post #5 of 63 (3848 views)

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Re: [chicois8] This has got to stop - revisited

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At least 20 shots were fired by Asian gang members according to tonight's Seattle evening news (Thank you Star Choice). The park is still closed. Lake Sammamish is about 25 miles East of my condo in Seattle. Lake Chapala is of course much larger and maybe 30 miles South of Guadalajara.

Late this afternoon I counted more the 20 police vehicles (mostly trucks and carrying troops) going East through Ajijic and eventually to the other side of Lake Chapala. Apparently 3 officers were wounded and 2 suspects apprehended.

Question: Why is it when there is a major shooting at the Lake Sammamish park, and on other days four police officers killed near my condo in Seattle, where I live 4 months per year, I'm not worried? Yet when it happens here near Ajijic, I'm scared shootless?

I guess it's because I only kind of sort of speak Spanish and have a hard time understanding the local news. Well, I'm trying to speak better Spanish. And I am also trying to be more realistic about what is happening crime-wise in Mexico.

I'm sure glad I don't live up north near the border and even closer to where there are even more serious problems.

Reefhound

Jul 18, 2010, 7:19 PM

Post #6 of 63 (3830 views)

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Re: [johanson] This has got to stop - revisited

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Question: Why is it when there is a major shooting at the Lake Sammamish park, and on other days four police officers killed near my condo in Seattle, where I live 4 months per year, I'm not worried? Yet when it happens here near Ajijic, I'm scared shootless?

It may be that the incidents in Seattle occur once a year or less, and you have confidence the cops will investigate and arrest the suspects.

robt65

Jul 18, 2010, 7:26 PM

Post #7 of 63 (3822 views)

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Unless Seattle has changed a lot since I lived near there, years ago, it was a pertty active city at that time shooting and murder wise. Actually that whole area from Seattle to Tacoma was active.

robt65.

norteño

Jul 18, 2010, 7:49 PM

Post #8 of 63 (3804 views)

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"Question: Why is it when there is a major shooting at the Lake Sammamish park, and on other days four police officers killed near my condo in Seattle, where I live 4 months per year, I'm not worried? Yet when it happens here near Ajijic, I'm scared shootless"

Perhaps because there have been four policemen killed in a single incident once in the history of Washington and many police officers are killed each and every day in Mexico, including at least four in a single ambush today in Acapulco and two Thursday in another ambush about forty miles from Ajijic.

P. S.: And an attack that left a mere two people dead would never be classified as a "major shooting" in Mexico.

(This post was edited by norteño on Jul 18, 2010, 8:20 PM)

ncferret

Jul 19, 2010, 7:37 AM

Post #9 of 63 (3713 views)

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Exactly right Norteno. Here are some numbers to consider. The United States has a population of some 300 million and Mexico about 1/3 of that. In all of 2009, less than 50 police officers were murdered in the ENTIRE United States. So far this year, in just the state of Sinaloa (pop appx 3 million - 1% of the US population) we have had more than 50 police officers killed. And, as you said, rarely is a cop killer brought to justice in Mexico.

gpkgto

Jul 19, 2010, 7:44 AM

Post #10 of 63 (3702 views)

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"by the unconscionable laws in the United States making assault weapons easily available for purchase and distribution to the killing fields of Metropolitan Seattle and Mexico. These incidents make it "

And there was an article yesterday (In the Washington Post and in Mexican newspapers) that there are 300,000 "cold war era" grenades that the US sent to central America to "freedom fighters" that are now falling into the hands of Mexican narcos--assault weapons will no longer be needed for massacres in Mexico.

Reefhound

Jul 19, 2010, 8:05 AM

Post #11 of 63 (3694 views)

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Re: [robt65] This has got to stop - revisited

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"Unless Seattle has changed a lot since I lived near there, years ago, it was a pertty active city at that time shooting and murder wise. Actually that whole area from Seattle to Tacoma was active."

That may be. Perhaps Seattle would fare poorly in a comparison of statistical violence with a Tampico or Matamoros. Perhaps it is the type and manner of violence that scares people on a deeper level. But fear is real for the perceiver, whether it is founded or not. It seems to me that most of the kinds of violent crime you see in Seattle and other US cities is one on one, small scale crimes of passion that primarily occur in the "bad" parts of town late at night. That's easy for people to live with by telling themselves they will avoid those parts of town at those times of night and not associate with those kinds of people.

It's the kinds of incidents that people know they could not have avoided in any way that scare them. These kinds of incidents occur in the USA from time to time and do make the top news. And there is tremendous pressure on the cops to find the suspects and bring them to justice. In Houston awhile back, a young woman was shot in the head while getting gas in a nice suburban area after work when a carjacker wanted her car and she apparently couldn't get her keys out fast enough. That was a top story in the community for weeks and there were fundraisers for the family and tributes at events and the leads in the investigation were followed until an arrest was made.

But they seem to occur in Mexico these days routinely and to a degree not seen here. Brazen shootings on busy streets in the middle of the day, attacks on police stations and convoys, mass shootings, discoveries of mass graves, etc. I think maybe the public fear comes from the sense that in Mexico the bad guys are stronger than the cops, or at the very least have no fear of them. Cops get shot and killed all the time in the USA but it's almost always one at a time when the bad guys are desperate to escape. Very seldom do the bad guys hunt down the cops and initiate the confrontation. And along that line, people fear that in Mexico there will be no justice served for the victims, there will be no determined investigation as I mentioned above but rather the victims will be shoved aside, buried and forgotten. The police in Mexico have lost control of the situation, they don't have the resources to keep up, they are losing the battle. That's what scares people.

robt65

Jul 19, 2010, 8:15 AM

Post #12 of 63 (3690 views)

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No Argument from me of all you have had to say about this subject. What I was referring to is that (and I omitted this) certain parts or sections of Seattle and surrounding areas can certainly be as dangerous as many parts of Mexico.

I also think that American style of planning and zoning have a lot ot do with it. As you have so correctly said in your reply Reefhound, . . . . . . . . "primarily occur in the "bad" parts of town late at night. That's easy for people to live with by telling themselves they will avoid those parts of town at those times of night and not associate with those kinds of people."

Here in Mexico there is no such thing as (real) planning and zoning as we NOB know it. This in turn leads to such tragedies happening almost anywhere, day or night.

Robt65

Rolly

Jul 19, 2010, 8:20 AM

Post #13 of 63 (3689 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] This has got to stop - revisited

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Getting back to the original post, here is an updated article with new information about Sunday's massacre in Torreón.
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/

Rolly Pirate

Hound Dog

Jul 19, 2010, 8:21 AM

Post #14 of 63 (3687 views)

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And there was an article yesterday (In the Washington Post and in Mexican newspapers) that there are 300,000 "cold war era" grenades that the US sent to central America to "freedom fighters" that are now falling into the hands of Mexican narcos-

Ah, yes; the road to hell is paved with "good" (unenlightened?) intentions. Just last night I saw on 60 Minutes a report from Afghanistan that in the area of Southern Afghanistan where the "counter-insurgency" is currently taking place, an area known once as "Little America" because the Americans built an extensive network of irrigation canals there in the 1950s to help impoverished farmers, farmers today are using those canals to raise bumper crops of opium poppies the profits from which fund the Taliban and help them purchase arms to kill American soldiers who are now there in 2010 to "help impoverished farmers". The Nixon/Kissinger inspired carpet bombing of Cambodia in the 1970s destroyed civil order and paved the way for the Khmer Rouge killing fields that followed. So, whether in Mexico, Central and South America, the Far or Middle East or anywhere else in the world, messing in the affairs of others you don´t really understand is a dangerous game that may come back to haunt you a generation or generations later as it has with those "freedom grenades" which today contribute to the destabilization of Mexico which, in turn, threatens civil order in the U.S. - the largest customer of the drug cartels and the source of weaponry for their war against the Mexican state.

norteño

Jul 19, 2010, 8:41 AM

Post #15 of 63 (3675 views)

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So far this year in the U. S. there have been about 30 murders of people who can be considered by a broad definition law enforcement officers engaged in their duties, including prison guards, game wardens, probation officers, prosecutors, etc. There have probably been as many such cases reported in Jalisco alone so far this year, including four police yesterday and three this year in towns on the north shore of Lake Chapala.

norteño

Jul 19, 2010, 9:44 AM

Post #16 of 63 (3651 views)

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"No Argument from me of all you have had to say about this subject. What I was referring to is that (and I omitted this) certain parts or sections of Seattle and surrounding areas can certainly be as dangerous as many parts of Mexico"

It would have to be a very tiny part of Seattle to be as dangerous as just about any place in Mexico. Last year there were 22 murders in Seattle, a city of 600,000 people that seems to have a reputation with some people as a dangerous place. No other city in Washington had a much higher murder rate, and the statewide rate is always lower than for Seattle. The municipality of Chapala, Jalisco has a population of about 43,000 and the reputation of being a very safe place. I can give anyone who is interested the names of seven people who were murdered in 2009 in Chapala as reported in the media, and I am not at all sure there were not other cases.

YucaLandia

Jul 19, 2010, 10:04 AM

Post #17 of 63 (3640 views)

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"Cria cuervos y te sacaran los ojos."

Dawg,
Is it really possible that the crows we feed/raise later return to peck out our eyes? Nah...

The US govt & people supported, armed, transported, and paid Freedom Fighters in their war against the Soviet Union, causing the deaths of over 1 million Moslem fundamentalists as proxy soldiers in our Cold War, and there clearly were no repercussions. After they fought for the US, died for US, and wreaked 2 Muslim countries for the US, should they expect the US to continue to help them clean up the US bought-and-paid-for messes? Does the guy who contracts a mob-hit have any responsibility for the death? Nah...

The US govt. provided the names & contact information of the surviving Freedom Fighters to their autocratic home governments, when the Saudis, Egyptians, et al wanted the names of their loyal young men (aka Egyptian Brotherhood, Al Quaeda, etc) who might have returned home (to foment local revolt?). Could the US compliance in delivering the surviving Freedom Fighters into Saudi, Egyptian, et al's prisons play any role in future "terrorist" attacks? Nah...

Did heavy US funding of Saddam Hussein's chemical gas attacks and brutal warring against Iran play any role in encouraging Saddam, or in enflaming fundamentalist Muslim opinions against the US as interlopers and meddlers who should not be trusted? Nah...

All Hogwash and Poppycock!

Just like the hollow claims that: US border policies, US private arms sales to Mexicans & Mexican cartels feed the Narco-Wars problems, or that US Govt drug policies and the US public's insatiable appetite for drugs have any effects on Mexico. The US does not bear any responsibilities for solving the problems they helped create.

Besides, there are no crows in Mexico to feed, West Nile Virus from New York City killed all of them.

Anybody want to buy some nice water-front property? or a nice bridge?
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Jul 19, 2010, 10:09 AM)

Traveler123

Jul 19, 2010, 10:40 AM

Post #18 of 63 (3620 views)

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It seems to me that if Mexico really wanted to stamp out the drug cartels, they could, with help from the US military. I think it's politics and corruption that keep Mexico from really putting forth an all-out attack on the cartels. They could get the resources from the US if they wanted them; the US would gladly send US troops into the streets of Mexico if the Mexican government would allow it. Unfortunately, some of the Mexican police and military are part of the problem and need to be rooted out along with the cartels for their roles in protecting the drug lords for $$ kickbacks.

The best solution is to legalize all drugs and end the underground market and huge profits, but that's not likely to happen in our lifetimes. So, another approach to regain control of the country is an all-out military attack on the cartels using the US and Mexican armies. Yes, it would be a police state for a while, but that has to be better than what is going on now, which is out of control violence on a wide scale throughout the country. Pick your poison.

chinagringo

Jul 19, 2010, 10:44 AM

Post #19 of 63 (3615 views)

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To compare the incident in Torreon with the shooting this weekend in Seattle doesn't seem like a valid comparison to me. By reports, sure they may have been "gang" related if one stretches the definition of gang. But when one accepts the total numbers involved, it hardly makes sense. Besides this is the third (reported) major incident in Torreon this year. Those that claim that incidents such as these are border town/area issues would have a real stretch tying this one to that definition. In doing a bit of research on murders in Seattle, I came upon an interesting fact - 5 out of 7 murders in Seattle have a domestic violence connection.

When I read through the responses to this topic from mostly NOB'ers, I see the common theme about comparing police officers killed. Obviously, this comes from police being who we have a tendency to think about when thinking about enforcement. Neither the US or Canada uses the military for enforcement, except under very extreme circumstance but the use of military has also become the norm in Mexico but we rarely see their number of killed mentioned.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

Reefhound

Jul 19, 2010, 1:29 PM

Post #20 of 63 (3569 views)

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I think the killing of police is the single most significant difference between the violence in Mexico and the violence in USA or Europe. It represents a huge shift in the fundamentals when the bad guys go from fearing and running from the police to hunting and attacking them. It changes the entire balance and perception of things. When the police are too busy protecting themselves to protect the public, when they are too out manned to investigate one major incident before the next one has occurred, when the police are no longer able to maintain order and security, when the outcome of a direct confrontation between police and the bad guys is in doubt, that is when you shift from a criminal problem to a war zone.

I don't know what the Mexican military losses are but my guess is they are not nearly as high as the police losses. They tend to move in larger units and such movements are in a combat posture. Most of the clashes I've seen reported typically read "8 sicarios dead, 4 captured, 1 soldier dead, 1 wounded" or something along those lines.

Hound Dog

Jul 19, 2010, 2:06 PM

Post #21 of 63 (3556 views)

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They could get the resources from the US if they wanted them; the US would gladly send US troops into the streets of Mexico if the Mexican government would allow it.

You must be kidding. U.S. troops in the streets of Mexico? No in a million years unless things have really gone to hell and it´s an invasion. There are not enough morons in the U.S. Government (and granted there are many morons there) to even consider sending military combatants into Mexico even if, and this is an absurd notion on its surface, the Mexican government invited them in.

Those "nation builders" in the U.S. can´t even handle a few hillbillies in Afghanistan and they are going to take on the cartels? Maybe they could play ear-splitting rock music to flush them out as they did to flush out Noriega in Panama. Talk about Keystone Kops.

Casa

Jul 19, 2010, 2:43 PM

Post #22 of 63 (3543 views)

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In Reply To

if Mexico really wanted to stamp out the drug cartels, they could, with help from the US military.

I could not agree more with Dawgs comments….. and I would add….

If the US really wanted to stop the cartels they could start by doing something about the insatiable demand for drugs in the US, the exporting of arms to Mexico and the laundering of drug money by US banks….

Next you will be suggesting that if Mexico really wanted to increase oil exports they will give control of PEMEX to BP!

Wachovia admitted it didn’t do enough to spot illicit funds in handling $378.4 billion for Mexican-currency-exchange houses from 2004 to 2007. That’s the largest violation of the Bank Secrecy Act, an anti-money-laundering law, in U.S. history -- a sum equal to one-third of Mexico’s current gross domestic product .

robt65

Jul 19, 2010, 3:03 PM

Post #23 of 63 (3530 views)

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Now here is something to chew on . . . . . Just last week, I found an advertisement in the Milenio or the Diario de Queretaro (I forget which) for recruiting of Mexican boys into the U. S. navy. I had to do a double take. At first I thought it was the Mexican Navy using photos of the American sailors and helicopters. I read the ad carefully and about laughed myself silly. Keep an eye open for it when reading some of the periodicals.

Robt65

gpkgto

Jul 19, 2010, 3:40 PM

Post #24 of 63 (3516 views)

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"the US would gladly send US troops into the streets of Mexico if the Mexican government would allow it"

Mexico knows the US is ready to invade--again--at any moment. That's why the Mexican government and the people will not allow it. The US has no memory of history, but Mexico and most of the rest of the world do remember the past. Every Mexican I know can tell you about the US-Mexico war, but most US citizens cannot.

Memo

Jul 19, 2010, 4:22 PM

Post #25 of 63 (3496 views)

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In my mind, the blame for this mess clearly lies on the shoulders of the Americans. The USA is the most powerful, richest, most advanced superpower in the history of the world. Are you trying to tell me they couldnt secure their own border from a bunch of peasants and thieves if they really wanted to? Give me a break. The border is the way it is because for some reason they want it that way.

If I were a cynic I might say an open border provides the Democrats with more and more Latino voters over time and the Republicans with more and more cheap labour to abuse. While at the same time, the free flow of drugs keeps the black population in a nicely constructed and constant state of ghettoization. Not to mention the importance of the drug trade to the real economy. Without drugs, the government would have to produce more jobs! So, its basically a wink and a nod.

(This post was edited by Memo on Jul 19, 2010, 4:55 PM)

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