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Moisheh

Jun 21, 2010, 3:37 PM

Post #26 of 55 (2146 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] On Racism

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 This thread is making me sick! Too much arrogance. One poster comments how he doesn't attack people like the Chamulas. Another wants to investigate the meaning of racism. One claims to know what is and isn't part of the Chamula religion. How many of you are indigenous? How many of you have ever experienced discrimination and or racism? If you answer to this question is never then I would suggest you go back to discussing FM2's or some other mundane subject. Drug store sociologists !

Moisheh


arbon

Jun 21, 2010, 6:34 PM

Post #27 of 55 (2126 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] On Racism

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"How many of you have ever experienced discrimination and or racism?"

I have never met any one yet who has not !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Rolly


Jun 21, 2010, 9:15 PM

Post #28 of 55 (2089 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] On Racism

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"How many of you have ever experienced discrimination and or racism?"

I have experience both discrimination and overt prejudice and hostility because of my sexual orientation and because of my religion. It's damn real.

Rolly Pirate


Peter


Jun 21, 2010, 9:58 PM

Post #29 of 55 (2076 views)

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Re: [Rolly] On Racism

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"How many of you have ever experienced discrimination and or racism?"

I have experience both discrimination and overt prejudice and hostility because of my sexual orientation and because of my religion. It's damn real.


There is racism and there are all those other social biases as well. You're not only expected to decorate your house in a specific color and style, it seems you need an approved floor plan as well.

Geographically speaking, I've found those biases more prevalent elsewhere. There is a strong brand of Mexican conservatism which demands a strict look and style that will be adhered to by any up and comer in the Mexican business and social world, but for those who are not reliant on that system of mobility, pues, así es.


YucaLandia


Jun 22, 2010, 6:45 AM

Post #30 of 55 (2034 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] On Racism

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Hey Moisheh,
"Drug store sociologists !"
A good insight. Since not everyone in society can be professional sociologists, what venue should the rest of us use to discuss our personal experiences and observations on the peculiar set of race relations that occur in Mexico.

If you don't like the level and nature of the discussion, and since you seem to see & know things the rest of us do not know, maybe you could raise that level by helping us understand better what's going on.

As a follower of general science issues, I have been much intrigued by on-going studies on behavioral genetics: the study of how behavioral traits can be passed between generations, particularly when a trait improves and benefits the receiver's chances to survive until reproducing.

How does this fit in a discussion on racism in Mexico? Here's my crude arm-chair perspective:
I suspect that racism is a subset or offshoot of tribalism, and that racism likely had some genetically inherited benefits in the past. I don't think it is necessarily a dominant effect in peoples lives, but instead, in the facial recognition parts of our brains and in the reptilian sections of our brains, we may have some subtle hard-wiring that predispositions us to categorize the world as either "Us" vs. "Them" as an inherited trait or predispositioned bias. It does not dictate how we react, but it may subtly influence how we cognate, classify, and understand the world.

In the distant past, (and near past?), being part of a tribe clearly improved the chances of tribal members surviving to have a chance to reproduce: more reliable food supply from group hunting, group agriculture, and group child-care/rearing . Just like breeding horses or dogs, when there are processes that reward some traits, and people that carry those traits are more successful at producing healthy offspring who also reproduce, then the number (percentage) of individuals with that trait are likely to grow in a population.

Since being part of an identifiable group ( part of a tribe or race ), historically seems to have improved an individual's chances for reproducing, I expect that there is some biological hard-wiring of the brain & hard-wiring of our brain's biological rewards system that predisposes most modern humans towards desiring being part of a tribe or identifiable group. This brain biochemical system rewards people for setting up cognitive systems that identify "Us" vs. "Them".

An example: Many native peoples from around the world historically called/named their group "The People" in their native language, which strongly implies that they have codified beliefs that other humans who were and are not part of their group are somehow not people. This happened at both local levels (the people - tribe - in the next mountain valley are not "Us", they are different, hence, "their women are eligible for stealing/kidnapping as property"), and as we moved around and expanded, this tribalism gradually shifted to include larger and larger groups (states, nations, and even groups of nations: Northern Europeans vs. Eastern Europeans vs. Balkans. Think how in Europe and other areas, even very small differences in appearance or speech patterns have been historically used to differentiate "Us" vs. "Them". Do you say Shibboleth or Ciboleth?

As races that were separated by geography interacted, it was very easy to use the outward physical characteristics of racial differences to identify "Us" vs. "Them". These subtle biological biases were later codified into social rules and even laws in some societies.

I ramble on about these things, because it appears that these inheritable genetic biochemical traits are present in most modern humans, but they do not dictate how we ultimately act. Fortunately, our rational logical parts of our brains can over-rule the more reptilian parts of our brains, so, as a species, we are not doomed to racism, just biologically predisposed to it.

Why does this discussion have a place on Mexconnect?
Unfortunately, the very human predilection and potential biological predisposition towards racism, affects most of us ex-pats in Mexico. In many ways, we may (sadly) always be part of the "Them" group in Mexico, especially when the rubber meets the road. e.g. When there is a dispute or disagreement between an identifiable ex-pat and a local Mexican, note how other non-related local Mexicans align themselves, often regardless of the facts.

Is this effect racist or is it a simple predictable biologically predisposed outcome of the residues of distant tribalism?

Hound-Dawg,
Thanks for starting a slightly risky but worthwhile discussion,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


Moisheh

Jun 22, 2010, 7:23 AM

Post #31 of 55 (2027 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] On Racism

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I guess that having been a victim of racism my whole life it upsest me when people dicuss this as if it is something you talk about in say a university class. Similar to watching ants or studying apes. My point is that unless you have experienced racism first hand any discussion is meaningless. Being a white person from Kansas in Mexico and experiencing discrimination is not what I call racism. It is when your entire life is being amongst people of a different color or religion and you are treated like a non person. It is when even your friends resort to name calling when a discussion gets heated. It is when teachers treat you differently because of your race, color , religion or sexual preference. It is when a perfect stranger cuts you off in traffic and then haulers F----- Jew( or any other racial slur). or Damn N-----. It is when you begin to question your right to exist when kids beat you up in school because of your race, etc. Once you experience these things you are scarred emotionally for life. Having a Government official in Mexico treat you differently than a Local is perhaps "Racism Light" but it s pales beside the real thing. Are Mexicans racist? You bet they are. Look at how they treat their indigenous peoples. Far worse than NOB. Being as almost everyone on this Forum is from the USA or Canada perhpas the discussion should be about racism NOB. The topic starter had the handle Bubba which brings up images of the most racist areas in N.A. ( Yes I know it is a popular nickname). When I first lived in Mexico in Gringo communities I was amazed at the number of Americans who used all the racist words especially the N word. I am sure that behind my back they use other words. That is racism!!!


Moisheh


Hound Dog

Jun 22, 2010, 8:03 AM

Post #32 of 55 (2007 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] On Racism

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Moisheh writes (somewhat insensitively):

This topic starter had the handle Bubba which brings up images of the most racist areas in N.A.

Now, I ask all of you; who is the racist/chauvinist/tribalcentric poster here? These discussions may get us nowhere but sinking into name calling and the bashing of whole regions sets us back to where we started.

Bubba spent most of his life in San Francisco or Mexico so tell me where Bubba stands based on that fact. Why did Bubba leave mama´s womb (Montgomery) for Nanette Funicello´s beach (Santa Monica) as soon as he came of age? It´s tough to judge others based on geographical origin or chosen nom-de-internet.


Bubba Hound Dog


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Jun 22, 2010, 8:22 AM)


Vichil

Jun 22, 2010, 8:20 AM

Post #33 of 55 (1992 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] On Racism

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Moisheh, your reaction to people discussing their own experiences is grossly overblown. You seem to have a real problem with your being Jewish.

For 30 years of my life I worked for a large corporation owned and run by Jews. The Chairman is the the head of the World Jewish Congress and I have never run into someone as sensitive about the subject as you are. The President of our Division was a Jew from Iraq, he and his family could have talked about being discriminated and persecuted against but he never did. His wife told me one day how their Moslem servants had gotten her out of jail and helped her get out of the Iraq when things became difficult for jews there.

For your information racism can take a lot of different shapes and you do not have to be Jewish, gay, Black or Asian to experience it.

As a French woman and a gentile in an Italian and Jewish industry I was an outsider for over 30 years so what? That is life.

Any person who is part of a minority can be subjected to it, whether white or not.

When I was a kid and went into Spain I was picked on because of my name, My grand-parents were not allowed to speak their language and were on a list of "suspect" and so on.

So please give us all a break, every one who goes out a little bit, even from Kansas can experience discrimination. You are not alone in this world who has known racism and or discrimination so get over it.

A friend of mine was attacked while working in Chiapas and told me that the fact she was black was not an issue in the attack. She is a drop dead georgeous gay black woman and has been through a few nasty experiences but was able to talk about this incident without anger

Lighten up, people will like you better!


(This post was edited by Vichil on Jun 22, 2010, 8:29 AM)


Peter


Jun 22, 2010, 9:13 AM

Post #34 of 55 (1964 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] On Racism

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It is when you begin to question your right to exist when kids beat you up in school because of your race, etc. Once you experience these things you are scarred emotionally for life.


Race, color, religion, sexual preference - those are just a few of the issues kids will use against others to separate themselves. In California those that you mentioned carry much less weight than in many places, we were all too diverse, mixed, and integrated for that. There were much more important issues we examined for our us vs them, like fat or skinny, smart or stupid, clear skin or acne - those were more important social issues where I grew up. They were all just tools for separating the idiots, and if these didn't work there were always the aforementioned models to fall back on.

Any of those could be overcome, though, just about everybody posessed one negative trait or another, or perceived negative trait - we pretty much made them up as we went along. What mattered most was how a person reacted to that sort of name-calling. In order for such an attack to be effective someone one had to acknowledge to himself that it was indeed a negative. The attitude of, "So what?" effectively rectified any alleged deficiency. "So what?" with an added retort such as "Your mother wears your father's underwear" effectively gave you a one-up.

Just about everyone has been a target of some sort of discrimination at one time or another. One may choose to carry the scars from these assaults and others prefer to pass them along, many will do both. For me it seemed the best way to deal with it was to shrug it off and get over it.


(This post was edited by Peter on Jun 22, 2010, 11:22 AM)


richmx2


Jun 22, 2010, 9:40 AM

Post #35 of 55 (1954 views)

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Re: [Vichil] On Racism

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...in most Latin cultures race is never as important as class and power.

This is exactly why I say "racism" is not the correct term for prejudice in Mexico. In racist cultures, "race" trumps class. Barack Obama's "race", to use another example, was -- and still is -- a HUGE factor in both his election and comments on his governance. It wasn't Mexicans who commented on Juarez or Huerta in terms of their "race", but outsiders. A better, and more recent example, might be Myram Cofinguey [which I've probably spelled wrong], Lazaro Caredenas Batel's wife. She is Afro-Cuban (Giving Lazaro Cardenas IV a very, very rich genetic heritage, indeed).

When Cardenas was running for Governor of Michaocán, there was an attempt by the PAN opponent to make a campaign issue out of Ms. C. It was NOT -- as the U.S. press reported -- because she is black, but because PAN was appealing to traditional Catholic voters, and the opponent was suggesting Coffinguey practiced Santaneria. Which is silly, he should have attacked her for being a Communist (which she is, but then so are most Cuban elites), but then "traditional values" types are usually pretty dumb.





http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


esperanza

Jun 22, 2010, 9:50 AM

Post #36 of 55 (1949 views)

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Re: [richmx2] On Racism

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A better, and more recent example, might be Myram Cofinguey [which I've probably spelled wrong], Lazaro Caredenas Batel's wife.

Her name is Mayra Coffigny. Scroll down here to see her photograph.
http://mexicocooks.typepad.com/...indigenous-mich.html




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









(This post was edited by esperanza on Jun 22, 2010, 9:51 AM)


eyePad

Jun 22, 2010, 10:42 AM

Post #37 of 55 (1926 views)

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Re: [esperanza] On Racism

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How many of you are indigenous?

No I am not. I have lived amongst indigenous peoples off and on for many years and my wife is full blooded. That's not really a romantic statement and should not be romanticized as the reality may or may not delight you. So I think I have a perspective that some others might not. At least in Mexico, as others have pointed out, attitudes of indigenous peoples can really, really be unexpected.
apáñatelas como puedas


arbon

Jun 22, 2010, 11:12 AM

Post #38 of 55 (1914 views)

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Re: [eyePad] On Racism

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"attitudes of indigenous peoples can really, really be unexpected."

Yes, you have got that correct. (but not just in Mexico)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



chinagringo


Jun 23, 2010, 8:44 AM

Post #39 of 55 (1810 views)

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Re: [Vichil] On Racism

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Here we have a large potion of the World glued to their TV sets watching the World Cup but futbol seems to condone some of the ugliest examples of Racism I have been exposed to in some time! If you have access to HBO, I would suggest watching the current Bryant Gumbel Report. The last segment deals with the racism that players on various teams are exposed to by not only the fans but also opposing players. A truly ugly picture of this sport!

On the other hand, there is a real feel good story about the kids of Brownsville,TX. The school district in Brownsville is made up of a very high percentage of students of Mexican heritage. For years, the district has included the game of chess as a supplemental motivator for the kids. The result is phenomenal! These kids have an incredible record of winning championships all over the country. They too experience the generalizations of racism when this bunch of Hispanic kids show up for a tournament and opposing teams immediately assume that they are incapable of providing credible competition.
http://<object width="320" height="240"><param name="movie" value="http://www.hbo.com/bin/hboPlayer.swf?vid=1102138"></param><param name="FlashVars" value="domain=http://www.hbo.com&videoTitle=Ep. 159: Chess Kids&copyShareURL=http%3A//www.hbo.com/video/video.html/%3Fautoplay%3Dtrue%26vid%3D1102138%26filter%3Dreal-sports-with-bryant-gumbel%26view%3Dnull"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.hbo.com/bin/hboPlayer.swf?vid=1102138" FlashVars="domain=http://www.hbo.com&videoTitle=Ep. 159: Chess Kids&copyShareURL=http%3A//www.hbo.com/video/video.html/%3Fautoplay%3Dtrue%26vid%3D1102138%26filter%3Dreal-sports-with-bryant-gumbel%26view%3Dnull" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="320" height="240"></embed></object><div><a title="Ep. 159: Chess Kids" href="http://www.hbo.com/video/video.html/?autoplay=true&vid=1102138&filter=real-sports-with-bryant-gumbel&view=null">Ep. 159: Chess Kids</a></div>
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Peter


Jun 23, 2010, 9:36 AM

Post #40 of 55 (1794 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] On Racism

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It would seem anyone up on events in the chess world would have some respect for Mexico. The Linares Chess Tournament, a grandmasters event some have called the Wimbledon of chess, were being played in Morelia for three years 2006, 2007, 2008.

There was much enthusiasm evident in the Centro for chess here during those years. It was probably that bombing event in September of 2008 that led to the tournament changing venue in later years.


geri

Jun 23, 2010, 5:05 PM

Post #41 of 55 (1732 views)

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Re: [richmx2] On Racism

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Guerrero was killed by firing squad. His statue/memorial stands in a large courtyard in the monastery/church complex in Cuilapan near Oaxaca City, and there's a celebration every February 14.


richmx2


Jun 23, 2010, 6:54 PM

Post #42 of 55 (1702 views)

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Re: [geri] On Racism

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Of course. He had sustained head wounds in the Independence Wars, which was used to claim he was a "little funny in the head", but his betrayal and subsequent execution had nothing to do with his "race"... or perceptions of racial inferiority.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


robbers

Jun 23, 2010, 8:27 PM

Post #43 of 55 (1683 views)

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Re: [arbon] On Racism

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In Reply To
"How many of you have ever experienced discrimination and or racism?"


As a Caucasian living in Japan, I learned a lot about racism. Over 99.5% of people living there are Japanese, thus they cleverly named it Japan. Kidding aside, there was no getting away from the fact I was a foreigner, unlike other Asians...Koreans, for instance, who physically could pass but who were the recipients of the worst kind of racism when it was discovered that some distant ancestor was Korean.

For me, personally, a few specific events stand out. Was riding my bike one day and discovered a traditional Japanese house, so I circled around a few times, admiring it. A couple minutes later, a policeman corrals me and takes me to the little neighborhood police station, the Koban. Made me show him my ID card (yes, you had to be fingerprinted for your card), company ID, etc. He checked the registration on my bicycle to be sure it was mine and asked a bunch of questions, luckily I spoke some Japanese, so it went smoothly. Didn't realize until later that someone in that house probably saw me circling around and thought it was suspicious. Maybe it was, I can see that. But I doubt they would have called the police if I was a normal-looking 29 year old Japanese man.

It was common to go into a local bar or pub or robatayaki and be greeted with disdain, but once it was so obvious, we just turned around and left. I mean, if attitudes were spit, we would've drowned.

The worst was when I was out in the countryside with my charming girlfriend who happened to be Japanese. A few construction-type workers, about 50 feet away, started yelling stuff at us, stuff my limited vocabulary didn't cover. I asked Mariko to translate and she grabbed my arm and said, "It's nothing, let's go." You can imagine what they might have been saying about me and/or her, and she was protecting my skinny white azz by not telling me.

It really was a fascinating experience, though. Being such a tiny and visible minority in a country where some small percentage of the people treated you like a monkey. An ugly monkey. A larger percentage, no doubt, felt that way but didn't express it so directly.

I felt a bit like John Howard Griffin in the classic book on racism in America, "Black Like Me."

Actually, though, this was not a negative experience.

In fact, I think something similar should be mandatory for all of us.

Funny, isn't it, how being the recipient of some behaviors can open your eyes not so much to the predjudice outside of you, but rather the predjudice inside of you.

So those of you who have moved to Mexico and feel predjudice directed at you, I hope you can embrace it and learn from it. We're all humans. And thus, we're all subject to the same flaws and idiosyncrasies. If you don't identify them in yourself, you can't change them. Well, actually, I don't belive we're capable of changing our predjudices, but perhaps controlling them. That's another story, though, isn't it?


tashby


Jun 24, 2010, 7:41 AM

Post #44 of 55 (1639 views)

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Re: [robbers] On Racism

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Funny, isn't it, how being the recipient of some behaviors can open your eyes not so much to the predjudice outside of you, but rather the predjudice inside of you.


Great post. Thanks for that.


YucaLandia


Jun 24, 2010, 10:24 AM

Post #45 of 55 (1605 views)

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Re: [robbers] On Racism

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Good Post, robbers.

Do you perhaps have a big nose?

If so, it's clear that the Japanese had good reason to suspect your criminal intents?

Really, cultures can link bad tendencies with the most peculiar traits: typical Japanese strongly believe that people with big noses are villains, until proven otherwise, which means that many/most people of European descent are essentially distrusted by the Japanese, though we are ranked higher than the "garlic-eaters" from Korea, who are ranked with dogs. (Though some dogs have pretty great qualities.)

Universally, parts of racist reactions seem to be genetically inherited and brain-chemistry driven, so, most people around the planet inherently react internally in racist ways when meeting a stranger from a different race. I know that I've been discriminated against by Native Americans, Jews, and African Americans, and I've seen plenty of racist acts against all of the same three groups. None of that excuses racism. So, does one have to be uniquely "indigenous" to be able to recognize or experience racism?

We simply do not have to give in to our baser-reptilian reactions.

A color-blind world would be as beautiful as a world without selfishness, greed, or violence. Unfortunately, none of those scenarios seem to be just around the corner. Fortunately, steady pressure by public opinion has driven overt racism underground in the USA, though it's expected to be racist in Japan (against Europeans, Koreans, & the Ainu?), similar to the Chinese; it's still acceptable to be racist in France; and it's downright-fashionable to be racist in Switzerland and Austria. (Anybody else out there amused by the Black Sheep campaign?) Think about these countries, throw in Theo van Gogh, and then compare them to Mexico.

Should Mexico be ranked with Japan and other xenophobic societies? Just where does Mexico fall?

Is the picture in Mexico more subtle, with class and family background playing similarly important roles?
I am quietly surprised at the strong stratification of classes here in Yucatan: where in parties and social situations, the races almost uniformly self-segregate based on class and family heritage. There is also incredible social pressure here to conform. Still, they openly talk about physical differences with basically no negative inferences: my mother-in-law was called "Tia Morena" for decades, though her heritage is almost uniquely Español, my father-in-law's mother was openly described as mulatto (due to an African parent), yet he rose to the highest levels of Civil Engineering as the top Roads & Bridges engineer for Yucatan, then Campeche, followed by Guerrero, y Tabasco.

One result? Many doors that were/are rudely closed in my face, suddenly re-open with a little name-dropping of Yucatecan familial tidbits. Another result: it can take 3-5 years for outsiders from other Mexican states, just to crack the shell of Yucatecan business and social culture.

The best antidote to discrimination and racism?: Open, frank, and candid discussions on public forums about how most people find racism and discrimination unacceptable, and naming and describing thier own local versions & person experiences seems as good an antidote any other to the very human and likely genetically-predisposed negative "Us" vs "Them" reactions.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


La Isla


Jun 24, 2010, 10:56 AM

Post #46 of 55 (1600 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] On Racism

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I found most of YucaLandia's post very perceptive, except for this bit (my underlining), which has me confused:


Quote
Universally, parts of racist reactions seem to be genetically inherited and brain-chemistry driven, so, most people around the planet inherently react internally in racist ways when meeting a stranger from a different race.



Hound Dog

Jun 24, 2010, 4:02 PM

Post #47 of 55 (1571 views)

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Re: [robbers] On Racism

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I sold to Japanese distributors and being a woman was ,I think, worst than being a foreigners. I was invisible, I would go to meeting or dinners with Japanese customers and some of my Japanese salespeople and distributor would refuse to acknowledge my presence past the first introduction. I decided it was funny. I was in charge of the Division and controlled allocations and prices so I knew eventually they would kow-tow to me eventually.
In the Suntory Plant( Seagram owned) the workers walked out because the translator to the Seagram Chairman was a woman and they did not want to take orders from a woman...
But one thing for the Japanese once they know who was in charge they went along with the program.

Some of the worst sexist experiences I ever encountered were the French Canadians although again once they knew they had to deal with me if they wanted a rare product or a better price they accepted me, being French really helped.
A friend of mine who is American and speaks French was told to stay away and send the Canadian agent.

In the 80´the business clubs in LA did not allow women or blacks so when they wanted wine tastings I always went with one black and one Chinese salesman and it was ok but as a member that was a no no. Same with the Boemian Club, the Pacific club and the French club.....I had to laugh about it. The French Club wanted some free wine and told me I could not come to the meeting so I told them to got to hell.
Women could not swim at the Bilmore Hotel in La in the late 70´s either, because guest men enjoyed swimming there in the nude. I told them it was fine with me but I remained excluded for several years.

Richmex is right it is not all racism but it is discrimation all the same.

I have no problems if people do not want to associate with me but they better not want anything from me either.

Dealing with Mexico was a piece of cake in comparison to many other countries, the problems in dealing with Mexico was the paperwork and the "changes" of rules at customs.

All our warehouse and winery workers were Mexicans and I never had any problems working with them being a woman so in my book Mexico is ok.


Demonio

Jun 24, 2010, 4:34 PM

Post #48 of 55 (1560 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Racism

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Great post, as usual, but I for one am shocked that the Dawg is a woman and perhaps a lesbian at that! Not that there's anything wrong with that, but damn!!!! Where have I been? Guess these things aren't as important to me as others, but God damn!!!


"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."

(This post was edited by Demonio on Jun 24, 2010, 4:35 PM)


chinagringo


Jun 24, 2010, 4:46 PM

Post #49 of 55 (1552 views)

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Re: [Demonio] On Racism

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Demonio:

Hound Dog and Vichil are husband and wife with two separate accounts but frequently cross post on each others accounts. Hope this clarifies this matter for you.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Demonio

Jun 24, 2010, 5:09 PM

Post #50 of 55 (1546 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] On Racism

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Are you sure china? I always knew they were together, but lesbian lovers is more interesting and adds to the drama. Perhaps we can just pretend. I think the Dawg may have tendencies anyway. Not that there's anything wrong with that!!!

G


"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."

(This post was edited by Demonio on Jun 24, 2010, 5:11 PM)
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