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Hound Dog

Jun 20, 2010, 12:36 PM

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On Racism

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In Chiapas as well as every other part of Mexico, having a copper-toned skin is almost certain to bring you grief. On numerous occasions in that state and in other southern states such as Oaxaca and Yucatan and Campeche and Quintana Roo and Tabasco I have never seen this racial profiling to fail to color the actions among personnel from border guards to state functionaries to army and federal checkpoint guardians. It is inevitable and constant and ruthless and anyone who denies that has not been there as have we or is in denial. If we travel the highways in that region as two pale skinned foreigners in a Jalisco plated car, we are almost always given the benefit of the doubt but if we are accompanied by copper-skinned friends, suspicion is immediately aroused and we are far more often stopped and searched. No racial profiling my butt.

The flaw in the new Arizona law is that it both demands and prohibits racial profiling in order to be enforcable while it is, in fact, unenforcable in any rational sense.

Then, on the other hand, if one is a native of Central America, one is prone to have copper toned skin generally speaking and Central Americans illegally immigrating across the border on their way to work in Mexico or the United States are easy marks in Chiapas although, if the truth be told, many Chiapanecos fit their profiles.

"Off with their heads", shouted the queen. "Whose heads?" responded the chief executioner. "Kill them all", declared the queen; "God will sort them out."

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Jun 20, 2010, 2:46 PM)

esperanza

Jun 20, 2010, 3:36 PM

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Racism

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La Isla

Jun 20, 2010, 4:08 PM

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Re: [esperanza] On Racism

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Esperanza, this kind of racism common to certain indigenous villages in Chiapas also is expressed toward non-indigenous Mexicans. Many years ago I visited Chamula with some "white" Mexicans from the local INI, and we had a very unpleasant encounter with some Chamulan men who had been indulging in the local liquor during a fiesta, probably not the best time to go a-visiting.

(This post was edited by La Isla on Jun 20, 2010, 4:10 PM)

Hound Dog

Jun 20, 2010, 4:28 PM

Post #4 of 55 (3386 views)

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Re: [esperanza] On Racism

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Dawg, what you say is true...but my experience is that, in your neck of the woods, racism can also go the other way. Your wife, my partner, and I were seriously (and violently) discriminated against--precisely because of the color of our skin--when visiting an indigenous village near San Cristóbal de las Casas a couple of years ago. It was the only frightening day I have ever experienced in my 30 years in Mexico. The resentment of the indigenous people there toward white-skinned foreigners is palpable.

Well said, Esperaza.

However, if you think indigenous tribal groups resent "white-skinned" foreigners, you should see how they respond to fellow indigenous folks from nearby villages and rival tribal groups who dare to travel upon their territory and may not escape with their skins intact.

To be fair to the Chamulans, they perceived that you were taking photographs in the village of local folks -a forbidden practice without specific permission - which, I understand was not the case but may have been construed to have been the case by villagers based upon your actions as they perceived them. I am not presuming to take sides in that affair as I was not there at the time but let this be a warning for those planning to visit places such as Chamula. Proceed with caution. Perhaps not even having a camera in your possession is a good idea as things can get out of control rather quickly.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Jun 20, 2010, 4:49 PM)

Vichil

Jun 20, 2010, 4:48 PM

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Re: [esperanza] On Racism

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Now that was a truly scary experience, I remember as we were surrounded by this mob with glassy eyes out for blood. I have to say I was happy to see their police come.
I think they hate the mestizos they call Kaxlan even worst than us and even worst the missionaries. That village is pretty nasty : a few year ago they had a riot when the old PRI Presidente was supposed to stay another year and the new PRI presidente came in. The old presidente is lucky to be still alive. Another scary event in that village.
Racism is alive and well down there and it does not spare anyone.

eyePad

Jun 20, 2010, 7:05 PM

Post #6 of 55 (3325 views)

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Re: [Vichil] On Racism

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Regarding the OP this is fairly typical I would say in my experience. If we look at a slightly larger picture, much of North America was built on a huge indigenous graveyard due to genocide. Where North America intersects Mesoamerica the indigenous peoples were not wiped out (although in the case of Tenochtitlan they were severely stressed mainly due to disease). There are 2-3 extant first hand accounts of Hernán Cortés' campaign which are of varying degrees of veracity but all very good reading indeed. One detail of these accounts that the foreros here might enjoy was Cortes found one survivor from a previous expedition who had acquired an indigenous wife and children and that individual refused to go with Cortes. Was this the first recalcitrant european expatriate in Mexico? The Spaniards were the masters of Mesoamerica for about 300 years. This I think carries over to today's attitudes. Just look who has been President of Mexico over the years and their lineage/skin color, etc. Or look at the TV stars. But why in the blazes should any indigenous person with any kind of historical perspective be expected to treat well any white person? Fortunately they usually do, but in Southern Mexico I do not have much knowledge. I do know when I was in Guatemala during the 30 year civil war I truly did not feel safe. I just wonder how long we will hear the widely spoken indigenous tongues.
apáñatelas como puedas

(This post was edited by eyePad on Jun 20, 2010, 7:08 PM)

Vichil

Jun 20, 2010, 7:29 PM

Post #7 of 55 (3309 views)

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Re: [eyePad] On Racism

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Benito Juarez was a full blood Zapoteco who came from a very poor family was well educated and is considered the father of the nation so there are exceptions. He seems to have been better accepted than the first black President of the States, as I said racism is everywhere and it is not an exclusivity in Mexico.

There is a lot of mistrust in the Highlands in Chiapas and as the OP says it is from Indigenous to outsiders wether white, black, mestizo or indigenous from different villages, different religion and so on and so forth and vice-versa.. I have never felt that nastyness in Oaxaca but maybe I have been lucky.

(This post was edited by Vichil on Jun 20, 2010, 7:35 PM)

eyePad

Jun 20, 2010, 7:42 PM

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Re: [Vichil] On Racism

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Vichil that is an interesting observation. Mexico appears to be inconsistent in all things. Some claim this is why the country does not progress (isn't there a pop song about that?). Juarez' history is so complicated it simply makes my head hurt. I profess ignorance. I guess he does have the distinction you say, as well as he did not die in a coup - quite an achievement in 19th century Mexico. And when my son was in elementary school he had to learn "el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz"
apáñatelas como puedas

(This post was edited by eyePad on Jun 20, 2010, 7:44 PM)

Vichil

Jun 20, 2010, 7:52 PM

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The story of his life is fascinating, I went to Gueletao his birth place and it was very remote from Oaxaca in those days and I bet the majority of the people in the village could not read not write. I think he ended up marrying the daughter of the Spanish family who had him educated, an incredible fact by itself.
I have many Zapotec friends and I am fascinated by their willingness to learn, adapt and change so may be it is a Zapotec trait that Benito Juarez had.

raferguson

Jun 20, 2010, 9:16 PM

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Racism

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An interesting exercise is to look at photos of the Mexican president's cabinet, and then look at photos of the US president's cabinet. The last time I did this, all the Mexican cabinet was white, except for the military officers. The US cabinet was of course of various colors, white, black, brown, Asian, and Hispanic.

There was even a joke during the Fox administration that you had to have an English surname to be on the cabinet. So even being white was not enough, you had to have ancestors from England. Like a lot of jokes, it may not have been 100% true, but had an element of truth.

Another exercise is to watch any Mexican TV show with a studio audience, and compare the host and the guests to the audience. You will see that the host and guests are white, and the audience is a wide range of colors. There is no Oprah Winfrey in Mexico, there are no indigenous people hosting shows in Mexico.

Occasionally Mexicans will claim that they do not have a race problem. However, if you perform the simple experiments above, you can readily see that they have a big race problem.

If you find any counterexamples, let me know, but I would be surprised.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

Moisheh

Jun 21, 2010, 3:38 AM

Post #11 of 55 (3246 views)

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Re: [raferguson] On Racism

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We were in Chamula 2 years ago when some dipsy woman from a tour bus started to take pictures of a religious procession. They swarmed her and grabbed the camera. I was about 20 feet away and it indeed was scary. Tourists!

Moisheh

Vichil

Jun 21, 2010, 7:00 AM

Post #12 of 55 (3206 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] On Racism

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Tourists are being picked on about photos. There is no religious tabou about pictures. Have you seen the postcards from Tonio Turok and other being sold in San Cristobal, not to mention documentaries and so on about the various villages.
I live there so I do no go around with a camera but one day I was at an art exhibition and this Chamula photographer started shooting pictures of me, I loudly asked her for money and she laughed and we are now good friends but the rules should go both ways.
Carlota Duarte has a seminar for indigenous and gives them cameras to teach them photography, some of them are quite good and there are zillion pictures of indigenous life on print.
Chamula has a very nasty streak, probably because it is the most visited village and some tourists are not respectful of them but they do carry the picture stuff a little too far it has become an excuse to assault people.

I was in the church in Larrainzar that has good reasons to be suspicious as they thought their church would be destroyed in 94 as they are Zapatista, there was a wonderful scene in the church. Families in full regalia were taking care of the saints, one man came and told me I was welcome to join them as long as I did not take pictures. I told him I had no camera and the whole chanting , rituals and smell in the church was magical. No need to be nasty about it.
I have been in this town when it was not that friendly but these people were most welcoming and the ones who could speak Spanish even explained some of the rituals.

Believe me I know about tourists, last time I went home I went to Notre Dame where I had not been since I was a student, the tourists were swarming during the service, taking pictures speaking louder than the priest, I wish I could have kicked everyone out, I know the feeling but I did not attack anyone.

(This post was edited by Vichil on Jun 21, 2010, 7:26 AM)

Gringal

Jun 21, 2010, 8:02 AM

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Re: [raferguson] On Racism

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And another one: checking out billboards along the highway, either advertising housing, clothing, girlie shows, or even food. See any dark skinned Mexicans on them?

But then.......on the Detroit Public TV, which is the one that makes it here on our dish, there was a big pledge drive going, pointing out all the great things accomplished in Detroit by various public entities. There was a picture showing a bunch of kids.........4 whites, 1 black, no Asians, no Hispanic and certainly none of Middle Eastern persuasion.

Racism? What Racism?

arbon

Jun 21, 2010, 8:31 AM

Post #14 of 55 (3163 views)

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Re: [Vichil] On Racism

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"Vichil,
There is no religious tabou about pictures"

¿When you look around in the church in Chamula are the "12 Stations of the Cross" large framed pictures with mirrors set in them?

¿and if they are still there what do you think is the significance of the mirrors?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

richmx2

Jun 21, 2010, 8:48 AM

Post #15 of 55 (3151 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Racism

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No doubt discrimination against indigenous people exists in several parts of Mexico and among some Mexicans throughout the country (and discrimination against non-indigenous by the indigenous), but is "race" -- as the term is used in English -- the factor? Since "race" has only a secondary (actualy seven-dary in the RAE) meaning in the sense of human blood-lines, it may be that it's just our category of understanding that makes us assume "race" is the factor on which discrimination is based. It may be -- and probably does -- have more to do with the historic tensions between modernity and traditionalism in this country. An "indigenous looking" person who speaks Spanish and dresses in store-bought clothing is treated much differently than a mostly-European looking campesino in homespun.

As a matter of interest, I always mention that one of the few times I've heard "indio" used as an epithet was by a brown-skinned, relatively short, wide nosed fellow absolutely outraged by the drunk who just shat upon himself in the Metro. The drunk being pale-skinned and blond. "Indio" -- in the sense of dirty and disgusting -- might be "racial" or might not be.

While Benito Juarez was "pure" Zapotec, he is hardly the first president of visibly minority lineage. Vicente Guerrero and Juan Alvarado were both blacks, and several have been visibly indigenous. Besides, what makes Juarez such a seminal figure in Mexican historical thought was not his Zapotec lineage, but the fact that he OVERCAME he presumed cultural backwardness of his heritage to become a modern Mexican.

The Mayan regions have been cultural different than Mexico forever... much of Chiapas was part of Guatemala which is not the same as Mexico by a long shot. The Mayans have been looked down on as inferior at least since the Aztecs rolled into town, and probably before... yes, that is "racial" in the same sense that the British are "racist" in their attitudes towards the Irish, but I don't think one can make a blanket statement that people are "anti-indigenous" when Nahuatl people also treat Mayans like dirt.

Since the Revolution was basically a Norteño affair, it's only logical that norteños -- who are more European than sureños -- have dominated the political and social environment. Especially with PAN administrations, PAN being a norteño party since its inception. You also have to figure in that much of the wealth in Mexico since the 1930s has come from European immigrants, and the rich tend to marry among themselves.

The "reverse discrimination" may be xenophobia or it may be classism, but "race" seems to have little to do with out.

This isn't to say that discrimination and bigotry don't exist, but that WE may be projecting our own culture's obsession with bloodlines onto the unfortunate tendency of human beings to act like dicks.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

mevale

Jun 21, 2010, 9:23 AM

Post #16 of 55 (3127 views)

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Re: [richmx2] On Racism

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In Reply To

While Benito Juarez was "pure" Zapotec, he is hardly the first president of visibly minority lineage. Vicente Guerrero and Juan Alvarado were both blacks, and several have been visibly indigenous

Are you referring to Juan Alvarez instead of Juan Alvarado? The families of both Vicente Guerrero and Juan Alvarez were accounted for as "españoles americanos", or "criollo", no matter the shading of their skin.

Peter

Jun 21, 2010, 10:01 AM

Post #17 of 55 (3110 views)

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Re: [Gringal] On Racism

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I had people NOB asking how I fit-in in Mexico because of skin color, etc. I answered by picking up a bottle of the popular Mexican hot sauce, "Tapatio" pointing out the man on the bottle wearing the large and festive sombrero who has blue eyes, light brown hair, and typically European features - not atypical in Jalisco.
___

In the early 70's at Fort Ord's basic training reception station, myself among the other new arrivals, I began chatting like an old buddy with a young black man who was taken aback. There was a pause and a quizzical look on his face then he asked me, "You from Cailfornia?" Apparently in his part of the country there was still a lot of resentment and the races did not socialize. He was aware there was not that same barrier in California but until that moment had not yet experienced it.
___

Some friends of mine had a band back in the 80's called the Oxnard Brothers named after our home town. They had a black drummer, a Mexican and Filipino guitar players, the keyboardist was Asian, and at 6'3" and 250 lbs the bass player was the white majority.

Rolly

Jun 21, 2010, 10:22 AM

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Re: [Peter] On Racism

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"...and 250 lbs the bass player was the white majority."

Did you mean minority?

Rolly Pirate

Peter

Jun 21, 2010, 10:45 AM

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Re: [Rolly] On Racism

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In Reply To

"...and 250 lbs the bass player was the white majority."

Did you mean minority?

Could be. It gets confusing in Oxnard. There is no longer a white majority, they are just one of the larger minority groups, as was the bass player.

Ustlach

Jun 21, 2010, 10:56 AM

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Re: [Rolly] On Racism

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I took Peter's "white majority" statement to be humorous. Because of the size of the white guy, 250 lbs., he constituted a majority. I could be wrong. But that is how it struck me.

This thread on racism is very interesting to me. I have never quite understood what some people mean by the term, because there seems to be a range of meanings and interpretations. Not just in this thread, but in general, on TV, in the newspapers, etc. anywhere the word comes up, I am often left wondering. At times it seems to mean that if one ever mentions or in any way acknowledges that one is aware of a person being of a different or any other particular race, that that makes one a racist. One sees a group of five college kids standing in a circle, chatting, and one notices there are four white guys and one black guy...one is a racist.

I hope the term is not actually interpreted that closely by reasonable people. We would all be racists.

richmx2

Jun 21, 2010, 11:15 AM

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Re: [mevale] On Racism

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Yes, thanks. A momentary brain burp. Both were quite open about their descent from slaves. Guerrero was quite proud of the fact, and Alvarez never thought it was a big deal one way or the other -- getting screwed out of his dad's estate by his trustees was.

You must remember that terms like "criollo americano" didn't mean very much. Racial terminology lost all legal meaning after 1824, and even before were more bureaucratic than descriptive. Sort of like "Hispanic" in the U.S., the racial terms often made little sense (who remembered what one's paternal grandfather's ethnicity was, and who really cared?) to those affected. Except to the Peninsular Spanish, and some Criollos who seemed to be more interested in reserving certain jobs for themselves than anything else nobody really cared whether one was technically Zambo or Mestizo or Pardo or Mulatto or albarzado or moriso or anything else.

Miscegenation and mestizaje may both refer to inter-racial breeding among human beings, but it's never been pejorative term in Spanish.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

(This post was edited by richmx2 on Jun 21, 2010, 12:58 PM)

Vichil

Jun 21, 2010, 12:54 PM

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Re: [richmx2] On Racism

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My experience has been that in most Latin cultures race is never as important as class and power.

Gringal

Jun 21, 2010, 1:18 PM

Post #23 of 55 (3016 views)

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Re: [Vichil] On Racism

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I think you nailed it. There do, however, seem to be a larger proportion of the lighter skinned in the class and power positions.

Peter

Jun 21, 2010, 1:21 PM

Post #24 of 55 (3015 views)

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Re: [richmx2] On Racism

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Miscegenation and mestizaje may both refer to inter-racial breeding among human beings, but it's never been pejorative term in Spanish.

I can't think of a race that I didn't find some of its females highly desireable. Cultures, on the other hand, I can't say I am in accord with all their customs, my own included.

chinagringo

Jun 21, 2010, 3:07 PM

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Re: [Hound Dog] On Racism

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So Dawg:

Can you provide a the name of a country, a region, a city or a town/village anywhere on the face of this Earth where one cannot find racism?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

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