Pickrick Drumsticks

Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

This may seem like an American issue but if you are retired down here in Mexico or plan to do so, it is an important issue to contemplate.

The Arizona immigration debacle and the rise of the Tea Party´s Rand (remember Ayn Rand) Paul to a primary victory in Kentucky coupled with Calderon´s bold speach to the U.S. congress today are, in combination, food for thought.

When I saw Rand Paul defending the right of private property owners operating "public" restaurants to exclude patrons for whatever reason including race, I was reminded of former Georgia governor Lester Maddox and his Pickrick restaurant in Atlanta in the 1960s giving away "Pickrick Drumsticks" which were wooden clubs meant, figuratively, to provide white patrons with weapons to chase away black Georgia citizens with the temerity to attempt to dine in Lester´s fried chicken joint. Those were hard times for Dawg to dwell on for many reasons but here is what is bothering me today - many years later.

The Rand Paul and Arizona phenomena are simply two manifestations of what is going wrong with the United States today as it takes a hard turn to jingoism and excusing the segregationist policies of the past as well as turning against Mexican employees of American firms who have contributed so much to the growth of the U.S. economy over the past several decades.

Mexico has been quite generous to retired folks from the United States like us and it disturbs me greatly to see the U.S. treat Mexican and other Latin American immigrants so disrespectfully when all that is really needed is a rational "bracero" program to bring these needed workers into the American workforce temporarily. When will people in the United States begin to comprehend that most Mexicans in a very patriotic country do not wish to move to the U.S. but to simply seek temporary employment there to support their families financially before returning to their families in Mexico? Same as the Turks in Germany and certain Arabs in France and Gabonese in Niger and El Salvadoreans in Guatemala and Filipinos in Quatar and on-and-on.

We, as residents of Chiapas within a short drive to the border with Guatemala, see the terrible corruption that has grown down there from exclusionary laws preventing desperately poor Central Americans trying to get to the fields of Puebla or Guanajuato states or Texas and California to work the fields for peanuts and this is simply because of irrational laws meant to protect jobs Americans will not take if offered.

Through irrational laws we create our own havoc.

Thank God the Mexicans, who have welcomed us here with open arms, are not vindictive.

Dawg remembers when, in the 1950s, one such as the splendid Lena Horne could not have ordered watery grits and bad coffee at the Rainbow Cafe in Dawg´s hometown. Today - in the persona of Rand Paul - this disease reappears.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on May 20, 2010, 5:04 PM)

May 21, 2010, 5:56 AM

Post #2 of 40 (3803 views)

Re: [Hound Dog] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

You must be joking???
I won't get involved with the debate of what is going on in Arizona it will only get deleted. But I wonder what planet you are on.
Tony

Hound Dog

May 21, 2010, 7:08 AM

Post #3 of 40 (3779 views)

Re: [tonynico] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

You must be joking???
I won't get involved with the debate of what is going on in Arizona it will only get deleted. But I wonder what planet you are on.
Tony

Come on, Tony; you must have more to say than speculation as to the planet of Dawg´s origin. Tell us your opinion of what´s happening in Arizona and I will relate to you the things I have seen where I live in Chiapas near the Guatemala border where daily atrocities are committed by Mexican gangs and officials against desperately poor people simply trying to survive by crossing an artificial border on their way to temporary enslavement in agricultural fields to the north.

There is no need to presume your comments will be deleted and even if they are, no one has been deleted more than I. I do not cower before that historical record.

Have at it.

tashby

May 21, 2010, 8:15 AM

Post #4 of 40 (3745 views)

Re: [Hound Dog] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

When I noticed yesterday that an Honest-to-God "Tea Party" Candidate won a U.S. Primary, my jaw dropped. When I read that a vast majority of people in the US, including outside Arizona, support that legislation I feel sick to my stomach.

Why are people in the U.S. stuck on stupid?

One of the greatest gifts of living in Mexico is it affords me the luxury of ignoring the U.S. to a much greater degree. I no longer have the stomach for it.

May 21, 2010, 9:00 AM

Post #5 of 40 (3715 views)

Re: [tashby] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

It's those railing against the Arizona law that haven't actually read it (i.e. Eric holder, Janet Napolitano) that are "stuck on stupid". The Arizona law is a mirror image of the federal law that has always been in place - it simply demands that local and state police enforce it. Profiling is explicitly prohibited. Virtually all of the opposition consists of sensationalist propaganda to incite the stuck on stupid crowd who will mindlessly repeat it. It's all a red herring.

The date draws nearer, the lawsuits filed are going nowhere, the drives for a referendum have been aborted, and the boycotts are ineffective - as the opposition slowly realizes the law IS constitutional and WILL stand up and IS supported by a majority.

May 21, 2010, 9:12 AM

Post #6 of 40 (3709 views)

Re: [Hound Dog] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

You are being disingenuous as you are comparing the warm Mexican reception of LEGAL American immigrants bringing money INTO the country versus the American reception of ILLEGAL aliens who come for jobs and then wire the money OUT of the country.

I guarantee you that if I and many others were to waltz down to Mexico today, blow off those silly FMM documents, use fake documents or stolen identities to get what I needed, and work illegally then the Mexicans and Mexican government would be anything BUT warm and friendly when they found out. And that doesn't even factor in if some of us were to steal from people or try to stir up political trouble.

And you might find those warm and friendly Mexicans would change their feelings towards you and other LEGAL Americans if they realized you were sheltering and protecting us from being discovered, and helping us remain there underground.

Compare apples to apples, please.

Gringal

May 21, 2010, 9:45 AM

Post #7 of 40 (3693 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

Reefhound has pointed out the embarrassingly obvious problem. We expats are welcomed with open arms in Mexico PROVIDED we prove that we are bringing in sufficient income to support ourselves. Oh yes, and also contribute to the economy by our expenditures in Mexico. We don't send the money back "home". My slightly right wing NOB cousin is constantly pointing our the lack of parity in the process. I am left giving fragile answers based on heart rather than head.

Some suggest that a "bracero" program is part of the answer. Maybe, if properly structured. What it really comes down to is the employers who want cheap labor and workers who will put up with any old treatment for fear fo being deported. The employer is not concerned about instant citizenry given to the offspring, the cost of education and other social services and what's right in general.

As usual, Follow the Money.

Like many of the problems out there including the drug trade, there is a powerful vested interest in keeping things the way they are. They speechify and sputify, but they don't offer real solutions. Then there's the question of whether NOB'ers are willing to pay ten bucks for a head of lettuce. The money runs right up and down the line and there is no way to ignore all parts of the problem. Slavery, redux. It can be profitable.

esperanza

May 21, 2010, 11:07 AM

Post #8 of 40 (3663 views)

Re: [Gringal] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

In Reply To

This is only partly true. Mexico requires that FM-2 and FM-3 holders prove that they receive enough income to support themselves. FMM recipients do not have to provide proof of income.

Mexico does not require that FM-2 or FM-3 holders prove that they have spent even one centavo in Mexico. A person could theoretically hold an FM-2 or FM-3 and live rent-free with a friend or relative, walk everywhere, buy nothing, and contribute nothing to Mexico's economy.

Many, if not most, Mexicans who work in the USA without immigration documents do indeed contribute to the US economy. Unless the worker works 'under the table', his or her employer deducts Social Security payments from his/her wages, even if the Social Security card held by the worker is counterfeit. Most undocumented workers never collect the benefits that they have paid for. Oftentimes, the counterfeit card is re-used by one or more other undocumented Mexicans, but no benefits are ever taken out.

I say this not to defend undocumented Mexicans, but only to clarify a commonly misunderstood situation.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Manuel Dexterity

May 21, 2010, 11:18 AM

Post #9 of 40 (3656 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

In Reply To

Compare apples to apples, please.

You should heed your own words. Mexico makes it more than easy for Americans to live and work here legally. The US makes it very difficult or impossible for Mexicans to live and work there legally.

Many Americans that live here as pensioners do not spend in one month here what most Mexican workers spend in one month there.

And the whole thing about sending money outside of the country "ain't nobody's bidness but their own" as Taj Majal sang. They earned it and have the right to dispense it as they please. After all how much money do wealthy people invest in other countries? Cayman Island accounts, Swiss accounts?

How about the large American corporations that ship jobs and capital overseas to insure their "bottom line"? That money dwarfs the remittances that Mexican workers send back to Mexico.

How much do people like gringal or hound dog or many others on this board spend on imported goods at Superlake? Most of that goes back to the US. Guess what? Ain't none of my business.

The US is a racist country. The always need a a villian and who makes the best villian they can shit on? They have been screwing over Mexicans for 200 years. They have used them when it is convenient and abused them when it is convenient. Everytime there is an economic downturn they lash out against the brown people. They asked them to come during the Bracero program only to later throw them out under "Operation Wetback" . Great name for an official US anti-immigrant program, don't you think? That was preceded in the 30's by an equally racist and disgusting episode, the Mexican Repatriation Program when they forcefully threw out hundreds of thousands of Mexicans including many American citizens. Many of them had crossed the border to fulfill labor vacancies caused by WW I. Such gratitude.

Screw the hypocritical gringos. They love to mention the mistreatment of Central Americans by Mexico when confronted with their own despicable treatment of undocumented workers. But if the "illegal alien" in the US problem disappeared mañana you'd never hear another word.

Screw the USA and its racist and bigoted siciety.

(This post was edited by Manuel Dexterity on May 21, 2010, 12:19 PM)

Gringal

May 21, 2010, 12:33 PM

Post #10 of 40 (3632 views)

Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

Passionate rhetoric doesn't change the embarrassing fact that Mexico only welcomes PERMANENT residents who can pay their way. What if those with an IMM can come in freely? For only 180 days....so how does that change the basic issue? Neither border is open to all.

What happens when an expat shops at Walmart is about as relevant to the question as why Mexico allows Chinese imports which are destroying many of its small business people. That's another question, just as why the U.S. has invited China to take over much of its economy.

If it were up to me, I'd open all the borders, including those to Central America and Canada and let the results fall where they may. If anyone would like to project the results, it would be interesting to hear.
It might take a while for things to shake themselves out, and I doubt that the results would be satisfactory to any of the powers that be. Perhaps not even to the righteous who are condemning only one participant in the drama. There's plenty of horror to go around.

Manuel Dexterity

May 21, 2010, 1:15 PM

Post #11 of 40 (3610 views)

Re: [Gringal] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

In Reply To

Passionate rhetoric doesn't change the embarrassing fact that Mexico only welcomes PERMANENT residents who can pay their way.

That simply isn't true. People working on FM3s are not paying their way. You need to get your facts straight.

And tell us please what exactly it takes for a Mexican to be welcomed in the US?

One way is an EB-5 visa. But the income requirement is slightly higher than Mexico requires of FM3 rentistas. You'll be welcome with a minimum $500,000 usd.

(This post was edited by Manuel Dexterity on May 21, 2010, 1:22 PM)

Ustlach

May 21, 2010, 1:30 PM

Post #12 of 40 (3596 views)

Re: [Hound Dog] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

As a life-long liberal I find myself embarrassingly in bed with the conservatives on this issue.

Even as a liberal, I have always believed that laws were meant to be obeyed and consequences to be suffered when not.

When all is said and done, there is no denying, illegal aliens broke the law and they deserve to pay the consequences.

Many of you who know me know that I do not want to be in Mexico. I do not like it here. I am not happy here. I would rather live in the USA. And so would my Mexican partner, but that is the problem.

There is apparently no legal way for us to live together in the USA and there is a legal way for us live together in Mexico. And we are both law abding and will not behave otherwise.

It is not right that people who broke US law are going to be given a path to legal residence and even citizenship, while others who obey the law are left to twist in the wind.

My parter has been in the US Legal Resident Alien program for 18 years, since he was 18. He is now 36. Hasn't heard boo out of them and never will. And I can't blame the USA. It is precisely people like my partner, young, male, single Mexicans who have created much of the illegal alien problem in the USA.

I want the SOB's (and I don't mean South of the Border) in the USA to enforce the laws that are on the books, including but not limited to running the immigration service according to the law, eg. the Resident Alien program, protecting and securing the borders, locating and deporting anyone who is not there legally, and punishing (fines and imprisionment) for people, USA citizens foremostly, who aid and abet the criminal activity of illegal immigration by encouraging people to come and giving them jobs.

If I had not just bent over backwards establishing my legal residence in the USA in another state, to include paying income taxes there this past year, I would try to find a way to become an Arizonian, and pay them the taxes, and support them in every way possible in their effort to put things right.

And don't kid yourself about how much illegal aliens contribute. Many, many, many of those employers who withhold for Social Security, and state, local, and federal income taxes, keep the money. Ask any IRS revenue officer how much of his workload involves going after these employers. And sadly, the taxpayers have to pay the refunds that some illegal aliens do apply for and receive, even though their contributions were never received.

Gringal

May 21, 2010, 2:05 PM

Post #13 of 40 (3577 views)

Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

You quoted me: "Passionate rhetoric doesn't change the embarrassing fact that Mexico only welcomes PERMANENT residents who can pay their way."

How about turning the sentence around to: Mexico does NOT welcome permanent residents who CANNOT pay their way. Is that better?

Mexico makes that abundantly clear when we apply for an FM3 or FM2. I don't know what the proportion of residents who are on working FM3's is to those who are "retired" non-working immigrants may be.
Perhaps you do, but that was not the main issue. It goes without saying that if persons are here on a working visa, they are supporting themselves.

I am not defending the U.S. immigration policy. Nor the Mexican immigration policy. Does either one of them have to be "right"? Each seems to be the result of their respective governments' protectionist policies. The U.S is looking like the worst of the two because of the obvious racist overtones. Also noted is the lack of U.S. citizens trying to cross over to Mexico illegally, since there aren't jobs waiting. Reverse the situation and the results would be interesting.

Furthermore, if someone from Central America tries to cross the border to Mexico, they will not find a welcome wagon waiting. Dawg pointed this out rather graphically.

My basic reference was to the millions of U.S. non-working citizens who have been emigrating to Mexico. They can't do so without proving sufficient means to support themselves. In fact, the Mexican government is tightening the income requirements this year. If they do want to go to work, it's not easy, either. How much they benefit the economy of Mexico, or not, is not what we're talking about.

I agree that the U.S. has a crappy immigration policy designed to keep Mexicans out. This does not make any of the other countries who practice exclusionary policies better. If you want to emigrate to Canada, it's even tougher, with higher income requirements.

What do YOU think would be a good immigration policy for the U.S.? Let's hear it.

May 21, 2010, 2:10 PM

Post #14 of 40 (3567 views)

Re: [Hound Dog] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

First laws are laws if they are broken they should be consequences! If I broke a law in Mexico I would at the very least be escorted to the airport and put on a plane not able to return for at least 10 years if ever.
The immigration laws in the united states are not being enforced. I see every day people that stand on a streed corner looking for work, day laborers illegals! they do not pay taxes or have health insurance. They show up at hospitals and who pays the bill? Not them. How much do you think it costs to live in New York? Do you really believe the day laborer has enough income to live hear? And if so it is not coming from Mexico it is coming from illegally working here. Illegal key word.
I have a house in Mexico I called the Mexican consulate awhile back they said I need to show pension or social security.
I said if I do not have this but have 10 million dollars you would not except this they said no you could spend it or lose it in investments. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I say be fair that is all. I love the Mexican people I am not a racist but give me the same treatment and visa versa by the gov'ts If Mexico will not except 10million and a house then we should not either. And the Mexicans coming across probalbly have no savings or very little, for the most part. If they let me cross as we seem to let mexicans cross then all is good. If Mexico wants us to remove the boarder and in effect that is what they are doing then they should lower the standards as well. I will tell you what pick the average Mexican coming to the U.S. I want the same standards to apply to me going to Mexico as Mexico wants it to apply to the Mexicans coming here.
The truth is it is about money. Mexicans work here and send back the money to their famillies in Mexico Alot of money coming to a country that is not overly financialy strong. If the same standards applied it will kill the golden goose. No more money coming into Mexico.
Fair is fair and right now it is not. When I will be welcome in Mexico with the same income that a Mexican coming here has then it is fair. 10 mill and a house won't do the trick I need to show social security and a pernsion
Level the playing field.

Tony

May 21, 2010, 2:22 PM

Post #15 of 40 (3558 views)

Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

All of your inflammatory rhetoric and racist insults do not change the facts of what I said. If Americans were coming to Mexico without proper documentation, counterfeiting or otherwise stealing CURP numbers, and working without permits they would be summarily booted out of the country with no recourse or consideration.

As for your EB-5 visa, try an E2 where you can qualify for $50,000.

As for your cost comparisons of what an illegal in the US spends versus an ex-pat in Mexico, you'd have to adjust for cost scale differences for that to mean anything.

As for what illegals contribute to the US economy, that has to be weighed against the costs to the economy. But it's a moot point anyway because EVEN IF they were a net contributor that doesn't change the fact they are in violation of the law. If I break into your house without your permission, I don't have the right to live there just because I bring in more groceries than I eat.

mazbook1

May 21, 2010, 2:36 PM

Post #16 of 40 (3553 views)

Re: [tonynico] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

tonynico, What the consulate told you is flatly wrong. Folks coming to México and getting a "rentista" FM# without a fixed monthly income such as SS are VERY common. Normally, INM only requires proof that you actually have an amount equal to 12 months of the monthly income required.

This is what happens when you ask an employee of one branch of the Mexican government (SRE in the case of consular employees) questions that ONLY an employee of a different branch of the Mexican government (INM-SEGOB, in the case of questions about visas or immigration in general) can answer.

May 21, 2010, 2:57 PM

Post #17 of 40 (3536 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

I thank you for the information
But to continue the topic, how many Mexicans have a years worth of resources to live in the U.S.?
Level the playing field period.
It will never happen!
Tony

Casa

May 21, 2010, 4:00 PM

Post #18 of 40 (3506 views)

Re: [tonynico] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

Speaking from personal experience I could have (and would have loved to) very easily support my Mexican partner on my very health Silicon Valley income. We would have lived very well and it would not have cost the US government or US taxpayer a single centavo.

However unlike most developed countries in the world the US does NOT offer ANY type of partner or same sex immigration benefit. Therefore I gave it all up, Job, friends, family and I am in Mexico to be with him.

You see Mexico allowed me to immigrate here. Something the US would not allow him to do even with my sponsorship ……

mazbook1

May 21, 2010, 4:14 PM

Post #19 of 40 (3500 views)

Re: [tonynico] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

tonynico, Believe it or not, there are a LOT of Mexicans who have a year's worth of resources to live in the U.S. (as my Mexican wife always reminds me when I make some stupid statement about Mexicans in general). Here in Mazatlán, the majority of the expensive condos or expensive houses in the gated communities are owned by Mexicans. There isn't even a single one of the expensive neighborhoods often considered the favorites of the gringos that doesn't have a large majority of Mexican residents, rather than gringos.

May 21, 2010, 4:16 PM

Post #20 of 40 (3496 views)

Re: [Casa] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

Your issue has nothing to do with your partner being Mexican.

May 21, 2010, 4:18 PM

Post #21 of 40 (3493 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

Oh I'm sure there are but they aren't the ones trying to get into the U.S.

mazbook1

May 21, 2010, 4:27 PM

Post #22 of 40 (3489 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

And even if there were (and there ARE), the longest visa they can get is a six month visa!

Casa

May 21, 2010, 4:44 PM

Post #23 of 40 (3476 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

In Reply To

Your issue has nothing to do with your partner being Mexican

I do not understand your comment…..
If you mean by "issue", the reason I live in Mexico, has everything to do with my partner being Mexican.

If you mean by "issue" the fact I cannot sponsor him into the US like any heterosexual partner can you are correct. It is because of bigoted US immigration policy and DOMA and not the fact that he is Mexican.

In any case……………..
I was replying to “how many Mexicans have a years worth of resources to live in the U.S.?” and giving a firsthand example of one.

May 21, 2010, 4:45 PM

Post #24 of 40 (3475 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Pickrick Drumsticks

| Private Reply

I know there are rich Mexicans but for the most part I would not trade bank accounts with 99% of the Mexicans coming to the U.S. and in your heart of hearts you know that most coming to the U.S have little financail means, and if you don't agree with this you just want to twist things to fit a liberal picture you are painting!!
Most people see the truth not how liberals paint things.

Tony

chinagringo

May 21, 2010, 4:52 PM

Post #25 of 40 (3469 views)