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Peter


May 20, 2010, 5:57 AM

Post #1 of 36 (15512 views)

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Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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I just read a new article about a Canadian couple who were travelling in Mexico last March when they were carjacked. The bandits took their vehicle and left them unharmed. Although their pickup was recovered two days later, 12 days of bureacratic nightmare left them to abandoning their truck to Mexican authorities and returning to Canada by plane. He claims the carjacking was just a small part of whole nightmarish experience.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/...al/mexico_carjacking



azheat


May 20, 2010, 6:19 AM

Post #2 of 36 (15490 views)

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Re: [Peter] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Yes, this was all over a forum devoted to RVing in Mexico. It unleashed a
barrage of stories of other events people were experiencing in Mexico
right now.

However the forum is run by a large corporation who decided (in all their self-serving wisdom)
that any further topics regarding danger in Mexico could only be posted if it specifically related
to RV's. They even deleted the post about the Arizona man who was murdered
for his new truck a week or so ago--as if this would not pertain to someone who
might be down there with truck AND their RV? Whatever.

At any rate, at first everybody thought it was a hoax, but it soon became
clear it was for real. Even the RV folks don't want to think these things can
happen to them in Mexico. There was also another Canadian couple who had
their SUV hijacked in the same location later that day as I recall.

In all there were three couples and two dogs left stranded--at least they let them keep
their dogs, which is more than a recent truck-jacking in Mazatlan did. They
took the truck with their 3 dogs in it. By coincidence, that couple was also
Canadian as well.

Troubling times in Mexico, that's for sure.

Tina


Peter


May 20, 2010, 6:40 AM

Post #3 of 36 (15484 views)

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Re: [azheat] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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I don't know how the story ends or if it has ended for them yet. Dealing with their insurance company might just seem like the start. I can imagine them refusing to pay any claim, telling their client he could get his truck back for just completing a little paperwork.


Reefhound


May 20, 2010, 8:21 AM

Post #4 of 36 (15455 views)

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Re: [Peter] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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This is another good example of why people are afraid to go to Mexico. It's not so much that something bad can happen as we all know that bad things can happen to you anywhere, even in Canada or the U.S. It's that when they do, you're on your own. Authorities either don't care or abuse you further. You have no one who seems to care and no one to turn to for help.


Demonio

May 20, 2010, 10:29 AM

Post #5 of 36 (15415 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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When a U.S. or Canadian citizen gets into a significant jam (like the people in the article Peter posted) in MX, they should seek help from the U.S. or Canadian consulate. They are often "connected" with local officials and sometimes can work wonders. In my past life (before retirement) I traveled throughout all of Latin America on behalf of the U.S. State Department as a drug abuse prevention expert and saw the U.S. embassy and consulate people at work from the inside. Great people and they often can work miracles.


"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."


azheat


May 20, 2010, 1:34 PM

Post #6 of 36 (15376 views)

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Re: [Demonio] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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From what he wrote on the RV forum (the person this happened to)
that's exactly what they did. But they got a major runaround and he
wrote that he was frustrated at the lack of assistance.

They were basically stuck in Ciudad Victoria area until they could
sort something out and get themselves to Monterrey for a return
to Canada.

If you want to follow all of the thread, it's on the RV dot net forum.
The thread is getting buried in new stuff, but it's under the "RVing
in Mexico" topic, and the specific post is called RV's Hijacked near Ciudad
Victoria.

But I agree with the "your on your own"--in a major way. To me,
the reality of Mexico is turning into a heaping helping of
the worst aspects of the Wild West. Anything happens, you are
in deep doo-doo.

Tina


Demonio

May 20, 2010, 3:23 PM

Post #7 of 36 (15353 views)

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Re: [azheat] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Bummer!!! If that happened to me (run around and lack of assistance by the local consulate), I'd take up the issue back home with the U.S. State Department. Don't know how it works in Canada.


"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."


Hound Dog

May 20, 2010, 4:01 PM

Post #8 of 36 (15335 views)

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Re: [Peter] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Look at this story from a different angle. The Mexican authorities wanted to assure themselves that the foreigners claiming ownership of the stolen foreign plated vehicles were, in fact the owners of said property. They required, therefore, original Canadian issued ownership documents properly and appropriately in Spanish as rendered by an officially sanctioned translator and what the hell is wrong with that? The arrogance of foreigners coming here and expecting the Mexican authorities to simply turn over expensive property to them based on their simple word that they own it and presenting documents with which local authorities are unfamiliar is mind-boggling. So the missus was unable to eat or sleep or stop crying so these morons flew back to Canada rather than comply with the rational requirements of the Mexican authorities holding the stolen vehicles to prove that ownership.

If I read this right, there were six of these Canadians being imposed upon by the Mexican authorities. Why couldn´t some of them fly back to Canada and visit Ottawa for documents while at least one of them remained in Mexico and then FedEx the documents back to Tamualipas overnight and have those documents translated by an approved translator rather than for the whole group of morons fly back to Ontario and then publish an account demeaning Mexico and acting in a childish and selfish manner when the so-called bureacratic snags they ran into were designed to protect property owners. Why the hell should the local authorities turn over the vehicles to these foreigners based on inadequate documentation? Use the brain!

Let me give you folks an example from our neighborhood in San Cristóbal de Las Casas when a bunch of thieves broke into the property of a part-time American resident who, at the time, was back in the states. They stole all of her household furniture and kitchen appliances but were caught when, as they carried the appliances up a neighborhood street some silverware they were stealing fell to earth creating a huge racket which attracted the wrath of the neighbors, so the San Cristóbal police recovered the property and held it in the departmental warehouse pending disposition. The American owner´s local property manager went to the police department requesting return of the property which actually belonged to her American employer. They refused to return that property without facturas evidencing ownership of the appliances and they would only return the appliances to the American owner who was out of the country and, to make things more complicated, the American had no Spanish language contract with the Chiapas property manager delineating the relationship and the property manager´s responsibilities or granting her the right to receive the owner´s stolen property.

Foreigners who visit or move down here treat Mexican authorities as if they were two-bit backwoods rubes and fail to properly document their ownership of property they acquire here or bring down with them and then become incensed when the Mexican authorities don´t bend down and fold when they can´t adequately prove their losses.

Faux colonialists. Arrogant NOBBERS. Stay in Canada, I say.

By the way; if my car purchased in Mexico, is stolen, I MUST have the original factura from the dealer in order to recover the car or make an insurance claim. That´s the way it is here.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on May 20, 2010, 5:11 PM)


arbon

May 20, 2010, 6:18 PM

Post #9 of 36 (15290 views)

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Re: [Demonio] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Bubba the Canadian hy-jacked vehicles are safe in a fenced police storage yard in CD Victoria (no one else can drive them) the Canadians can collect them later but in the mean time the Canadians have to get home to plant the heritage tomato plants on the 24th of May
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



chinagringo


May 20, 2010, 6:45 PM

Post #10 of 36 (15287 views)

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Re: [Demonio] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Quoting Demonio:
" They are often "connected" with local officials and sometimes can work wonders. In my past life (before retirement) I traveled throughout all of Latin America on behalf of the U.S. State Department as a drug abuse prevention expert and saw the U.S. embassy and consulate people at work from the inside. Great people and they often can work miracles"

Don't care to start a disagreement with you one the above statement but the track record of the U.S. State Dept. has a history of being less than competent on many occasions. Having observed their antics dating back to the '50's and '60's firsthand in both SE Asia and Asia, I can only say that they were amongst the most disliked groups within the American business community in a number of countries.

Given the fact that those firsthand negative experiences went away by the mid '60's, when I moved back to the U.S. and no longer had direct contact, I can only hope that they cleaned up their act and started performing the duties that they were being paid to do in Mexico, Latin America and the rest of the World. I too would certainly like to believe that they could assist us properly, if we were to experience anything like what these folks from Canada experienced, on one of our many trips through Mexico.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Hound Dog

May 21, 2010, 7:21 AM

Post #11 of 36 (15217 views)

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Re: [arbon] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Bubba the Canadian hy-jacked vehicles are safe in a fenced police storage yard in CD Victoria (no one else can drive them) the Canadians can collect them later but in the mean time the Canadians have to get home to plant the heritage tomato plants on the 24th of May

Aha! I knew there was a hidden agenda. Also, remember that the wife of one of the victims was in hysterics according to his account and could not sleep nor eat and was constantly in tears. Who wouldn´t relinquish a vehicle to get out of that hotel room?



(This post was edited by Hound Dog on May 21, 2010, 7:22 AM)


Reefhound


May 21, 2010, 9:31 AM

Post #12 of 36 (15189 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Look at this story from a different angle. The Mexican authorities wanted to assure themselves that the foreigners claiming ownership of the stolen foreign plated vehicles were, in fact the owners of said property. They required, therefore, original Canadian issued ownership documents properly and appropriately in Spanish as rendered by an officially sanctioned translator and what the hell is wrong with that?


Nothing wrong with verifying ownership but use common sense and be reasonable. This is clearly not a case of some Canadians involved in some devious plot to steal some RVs they somehow discovered had been found. They had notified police of the theft and given the vehicle information BEFORE they were recovered.

Who do the police think these RVs belong to? I doubt the thiefs took the time to strip off the TVIP stickers which can be easily traced (or the VIN) to identify exactly who owned and imported them. Why was not personal identification of the owner's identity not enough?

I have a hard time believing even the most incompetent Mexican police agency cannot determine the owner identity of a recovered stolen vehicle unless it has been deliberately and carefully stripped of all VINs and plates and stickers.

What is the justification for requiring a much higher level of proof than was required to get the TVIPs and drive the vehicles throughout Mexico in the first place?


bournemouth

May 21, 2010, 10:41 AM

Post #13 of 36 (15172 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Follow the money. A friend had her vehicle stolen in the Chapala area. It was discovered not much time later but took literally months to get back, with a huge storage bill accumulating in the meantime. It passed through the hands of two police departments in that time - there was no argument about who owned it - it just took a very, very long time to be released to the insurance company.


Hound Dog

May 21, 2010, 10:50 AM

Post #14 of 36 (15166 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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This is clearly not a case of some Canadians involved in some devious plot to steal some RVs they somehow discovered had been found. They had notified police of the theft and given the vehicle information BEFORE they were recovered.

Tell me Reefhound; are you not a Texan and not a resident of Mexico? If so,one way or the other, do you have any idea of what it takes to establish ownership of personal property in Mexico? Perhaps I am wrong and you are a legal resident of Mexico and, if that is the case, please explain to us your residency status in Mexico and why you are so knowledgable about Mexican law regarding ownership and the evidence of ownership of automobiles under Mexican statutes.

I look forward to being enlightened


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on May 21, 2010, 10:51 AM)


arbon

May 21, 2010, 12:53 PM

Post #15 of 36 (15132 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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The last report I read said that only 40% of properties were owned beyond any doubt.

But that report may have only applied to Mexico DF, or the State of Mexico. (definitely not all of Mexico)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Reefhound


May 21, 2010, 2:45 PM

Post #16 of 36 (15111 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Don't start with the diversionary tactics. You didn't answer my questions. If personal identification and a copy of the title is sufficient proof to bring your vehicle to Mexico and drive it around through checkpoints, why not to get it back if stolen?

Do you think the police have doubts about the ownership? Let's see, if the RV had not been stolen but instead police looked in the window and saw a dead Mexican, do you think they would quickly find those Canadian owners and arrest them or simply do nothing because without umpteen translated documents they cannot determine who is the owner?

If an ex-pat is stopped at a checkpoint and asked if they own the vehicle, are they required to cough up all that documentation or else told to get out and walk?


Reefhound


May 21, 2010, 2:57 PM

Post #17 of 36 (15109 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Documents required to issue a Consular Letter to recover a stolen vehicle
Under the 1936 Convention for the return of motor vehicles stolen, converted, or embezzled in the United States and subsequently brought to Mexico, U.S. Citizens may be able to retrieve their stolen vehicles. Listed below are the documents required under the Convention in order to recover the vehicle. Once these documents are presented at the Consulate, a consular letter is prepared to support the request to the Mexican Government.
  1. As proof of ownership, either:
    a) Title document or a certified copy
    b) Bill of Sale or a certified copy
    c) Department of Motor Vehicles Registration or a certified copy.
  2. A Police Report certified by the Police Department and translated into Spanish.
  3. If Title to the vehicle has been transferred since the time of theft. Bill of Sale or other document showing transfer of the vehicle from the owner to an insurance company (necessary only if such a transfer of title has taken place).
  4. Power of Attorney and Spanish translation from the present owner indicating the name and address of the person responsible for the recovery of the vehicle and its returns to the United States (not necessary if the owner of the vehicle will personally come to Mexico to claim it and return it to the United States).
http://nogales.usconsulate.gov/stolen_vehicles.html

This is law by international treaty. One does not have to live in Mexico to know it.

Numbers 3 and 4 didn't apply in their case. The story says they provided the copies of Canadian issued ownership. The items to prove ownership in #1 are EITHER, not ALL. Nothing about requiring these items to be translated and then further stamped. Nothing about returning to original point of entry.

That said, who knows what really transpired, what was requested, and what was provided.


tonyburton


May 21, 2010, 3:19 PM

Post #18 of 36 (15102 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Judging by your introduction, your post appears to apply to vehicles stolen in the US and then taken to Mexico, not US vehicles stolen in Mexico.


Peter


May 21, 2010, 4:14 PM

Post #19 of 36 (15082 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Judging by your introduction, your post appears to apply to vehicles stolen in the US and then taken to Mexico, not US vehicles stolen in Mexico.

Yes, I can see how being stolen or embezzeled in the US would make its proof of ownership an entirely different matter. A car brought legally into Mexico by a tourist would have all that confusing entry permit stuff to further complicate the matter. Bringing a car into Mexico voluntarily may be considered implied consent to have it stolen.


Reefhound


May 21, 2010, 4:38 PM

Post #20 of 36 (15078 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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That may be but it goes back to why would the standard of proof be different? The owner is the owner. Anyone feel free to post the documented requirements to recover a foreign registered vehicle that was stolen in Mexico.

I do suspect there is more to this particular story than has been told.

However, what I think is happening here is those officials are making it difficult in the hopes the owners will either just go away (they get to keep the vehicle) or will offer a healthy mordida.


Reefhound


May 21, 2010, 4:45 PM

Post #21 of 36 (15073 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Here is a news article that illustrates how/why police agencies try to keep the vehicles. It is a bit dated but do you believe the corruption has gone away? If anything I'll bet the numbers have gone up not down.

Officials Steal Stolen Cars; They Return Only 40 Percent Of Recovered Heisted Autos Insurance companies throughout Mexico recently charged that state
authorities do not return stolen cars they recover. In other words,
they were accusing state authorities of stealing stolen cars.
...

In 1997, judicial authorities in 27 states did not return 145,000
insured vehicles recovered from thieves, according to the coordinating
Office of Insured Risks (OCRA). Instead, they distributed them --
sometimes to pay off debts and favors, or to place someone in their
obligation, sometimes selling them -- to other government officials,
to family members, even to journalists. The OCRA figure does not
include the hundreds of thousands of uninsured vehicles these
authorities confiscated for similar use.

...

In 1997, judicial authorities in 27 states did not return 145,000
insured vehicles recovered from thieves, according to the coordinating
Office of Insured Risks (OCRA). Instead, they distributed them --
sometimes to pay off debts and favors, or to place someone in their
obligation, sometimes selling them -- to other government officials,
to family members, even to journalists. The OCRA figure does not
include the hundreds of thousands of uninsured vehicles these
authorities confiscated for similar use.


In some states, such as Durango, Guerrero, Michoacan and,
unsurprisingly, the State of Mexico, insurance investigators are
prohibited by attorneys general from access to case records of stolen
vehicles -- which, say insurance companies, clearly shows official
complicity in this "practice."
If licensed insurance investigators are prevented by state justice
officials from finding out what's happened to a stolen car, guess how
much chance you have.



arbon

May 21, 2010, 4:45 PM

Post #22 of 36 (15070 views)

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Re: [Peter] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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So those Canadians are liable for any trouble the "Hy-Jackers" got into while using the Canadian vehicles.Eh

and here we were worrying about being liable if someone else uses our car without permission and has an accident, and valet parking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Hound Dog

May 21, 2010, 6:35 PM

Post #23 of 36 (15054 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Here is a news article that illustrates how/why police agencies try to keep the vehicles. It is a bit dated but do you believe the corruption has gone away?

So, you make this assertion based on a ten year old article in the regionally insignificant foreign oriented Guadalajara Reporter? All the federal authorities demanded of the Canadians is that they prove ownership using normal criteria under Mexican law. Has anyone noticed that, over an over again, Canadians are participants in these needless controversies and always blaming their problems on Mexican incompetence? Racism, pure and simple.


arbon

May 22, 2010, 6:31 AM

Post #24 of 36 (15000 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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In Reply To
Here is a news article that illustrates how/why police agencies try to keep the vehicles. It is a bit dated but do you believe the corruption has gone away?

So, you make this assertion based on a ten year old article in the regionally insignificant foreign oriented Guadalajara Reporter? All the federal authorities demanded of the Canadians is that they prove ownership using normal criteria under Mexican law. Has anyone noticed that, over an over again, Canadians are participants in these needless controversies and always blaming their problems on Mexican incompetence? Racism, pure and simple. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Canada has started to notice, but we still appreciate you bring it to our attention, as you well know habits are very hard to break. Canada is having trouble of it's own, (proving ownership) many countries including Mexico are are claiming a piece. But as Calderon has pointed out "Illegal Immigration Is Not A Crime In Mexico, But We Ask For Papers & Deport Illegals"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Manuel Dexterity

May 22, 2010, 7:49 AM

Post #25 of 36 (14979 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Two minutes of terror, 12 days bureaucratic terror

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Perhaps these people have a legitimate gripe but we are talking about them being denied personal property. Something that can obviously either be replaced or lived without. (No, reefhound, I am not condoning theft)

Here is a case though where an American is being denied his citizenship even after having served in the armed forces of his country of birth.

http://www.securitycornermexico.com/...d=60&Itemid=1223
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