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Hound Dog

May 7, 2010, 11:38 AM

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Where are You Coming From and Where are You Going?

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Encounter with an army outpost on the Minatitlan-Córdoba Autopista one day last week. Lots of guys, both army guys and federales heavily armed with machine guns:

"Where are you coming from and where are you going?"
"Well, we are coming from San Cristobal de Las Casas and we are on our way to Chapala, Jalisco."
"Why?"
"We live in both places."
" You know, I´m from Jalisco myself."
"Really?"
"Yeah, and I noticed your Jalisco plates. What town do you live in in Jalisco?"
"Guadalajara." ( We always say "Guadalajara" even though we live in Ajijic. We learned this long ago)
" I see you have U.S. and French passports but Mexican FM-2 visas and Chiapas and Jalisco driver´s licences and you seem to live here."
"Correct officer and we live in two places in Mexico and love Mexico, a wonderful couintry and have lived here for ten years and are totally committed to living here forever."
"You know I was born and raised in Ciudad Guzman."
"No kidding; what a nice town with a great restaurant,"
"OK, you can go now."

The world is the same the world over.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on May 7, 2010, 11:46 AM)

Memo

May 7, 2010, 3:56 PM

Post #2 of 8 (5373 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Where are You Coming From and Where are You Going?

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If you end up getting a Mexican passport, it would be wise to travel with it and your foreign passports and hand them both over when requested for ID. Being in the foreigner club has its advantages when it comes to the kind of treatment you will get. Unfortunately, it is the Mexicans who get f*&*ed over the most in Mexico.

Once you have that Mexican passport you can no longer use your foreign passport to shield you from injustice, but that doesn't mean whoever stops you knows that.

raferguson

May 7, 2010, 5:33 PM

Post #3 of 8 (5358 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Where are You Coming From and Where are You Going?

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I am going to guess that this conversation was in Spanish, but maybe not.

No matter where you are, you don't want to look like a victim, but a respectable law abiding citizen who does not expect a problem. I always smile at roadblocks, say "Buenos Dias", happily open the trunk if they ask, and watch them work.

The Dawg's situation is a little unique, due to two addresses in Mexico, and two different nationality passports, so I would expect a little extra scrutiny, the police just doing their job.

Sometimes I think that being a Spanish speaking foreigner is advantageous. They kind of know that you are not the average tourist, that you probably know how things work in Mexico. You always get a little extra respect speaking Spanish, I think, no matter who you are dealing with. And the point about foreigners getting treated better than nationals may also be true, I am not sure.

I understand that Mexicans living in the US are victimized by the Mexican police, despite government programs like Paisano, which are supposed to prevent it.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

Hound Dog

May 7, 2010, 7:45 PM

Post #4 of 8 (5344 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Where are You Coming From and Where are You Going?

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I am going to guess that this conversation was in Spanish, but maybe not.

You can bet your sweet ass that conversation was in Spanish, Richard. That was a given if there ever was one.

(This post was edited by Hound Dog on May 7, 2010, 7:46 PM)

Memo

May 8, 2010, 5:45 AM

Post #5 of 8 (5315 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Where are You Coming From and Where are You Going?

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I wonder if it really would be better to hand over both passports. It might be enough to just hand over your Mexican ID alone with the obvious fact that you are a foreigner due to appearance, accent, etc. Handing over your foreign ID as well might just confuse things. It may be better to keep your new Mexican nationality on the down low until absolutely necessary since having Mexican nationality actually gives Mexican authorities more power over you and hence more license to abuse you if they so wish.

Having said that, one of the rules of obtaining citizenship is that you must present yourself to authorities as Mexican. If you do not, said citizenship can be stripped. Whether or not that would actually happen is another question.

(This post was edited by Memo on May 8, 2010, 5:58 AM)

Manuel Dexterity

May 8, 2010, 7:51 AM

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Re: [Memo] Where are You Coming From and Where are You Going?

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In Reply To

The above post is dangerously incorrect. It is against the law for a Mexican citizen to identify themselves as anything but while within the country of Mexico. And people who are nationalized citizens can actually have their citizenship revoked for exacty that reason .

The rest of the post is also nothing but subjective opinion with no basis in reality. A foreign passport shields you from nothing nor does it give you any additional legal protection.

Memo

May 8, 2010, 9:45 AM

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Where are You Coming From and Where are You Going?

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Looks like you did not read the entire post as the last paragraph clearly states exactly what you mention. You are very correct.

Personally, I think I have concluded that I will simply present my Mexican ID and rely on the other intangibles for them to determine I am a foreigner. You are also right that your foreign passport offers you no formal protection and I think I also mentioned that if you re-read my posts. Your home government is, however, under more pressure and obligation to intervene if you are being treated unjustly by the law then if you hold Mexican citizenship. If do not have Mexican citizenship your government is more likely to exert whatever diplomatic pressure they can in order to get you fair treatment. This is particularly relevant if you are American as they clearly have a lot of diplomatic clout and tend to go to bat for their citizens while abroad. If you have Mexican citizenship they are more likely to classify it as an internal matter and wash their hands of it. If you have legitimately committed a crime, nobody except your lawyer can do anything for you.

Informally, however, there is a huge advantage to being from certain countries while in Mexico. This is not simply "subjective opinion" as one comes to realize after having lived in Mexico long enough. Certainly it is not scientifically proven, but it is a real phenomenon. Houndog's little friendly chat is a perfect example. He had those cops wrapped around his finger. They would have given him a police escort if he had asked for it.

Generally, people will treat you better and go out of their way to help you and this includes the authorities. My Mexican friends confirm that Mexicans are more likely to treat each other like shit while putting foreigners on a pedestal. Now, if you are a foreigner who shows a great appreciation and respect for Mexico and its people (as Houndog clearly did) the world is your oyster in Mexico.

(This post was edited by Memo on May 8, 2010, 10:05 AM)

DavidMcL

May 8, 2010, 9:39 PM

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Re: Deleted postings

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Run-on thread of nine postings deleted as it was of interest only to the two combatants and of no interest or redeeming value to the general forum readership.

Next time, please don't waste our time. Take it outside through the PM function.

The ice is getting pretty thin.

David
David McL
WebJefe

(This post was edited by DavidMcL on May 8, 2010, 9:42 PM)