Forums > General > General Forum

1 2 View All

Louisa

Oct 28, 2002, 7:33 PM

Post #1 of 30 (4455 views)

Shortcut

Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post |

Please advise abour beggars. We have been to Baja about four times, twice camping. We are Canadians. We have camped in a tent trailer for 5 months and a campervan for 4 months. My husband says he is now ready for the mainland. He speaks pretty fluent Spanish. He has taken courses for 4 years since our first trip. I get by. But, I understand from friends that there are a lot of beggars in mazatlan. We would like to go to the Old part of Mazatlan,( Mexican Old Town Section) and rent a house for a couple of months as close to the ocean as possible. But the draw back is begging, its not that we don't approve or are scared. It makes us feel guilty and ill that we can't help them. We have so much. We are over 65 and I guess for all our travelling we are not worldy enough to ignore this. We would like the truth. When we ask, the question is evaded. Coming from the prairies, living by the ocean is a dream we would like to fulfil in a Mexican setting among Mexican people. We are not tourists, per say.

Thanks for your time

regards Luisa

T

Rolly

Oct 28, 2002, 8:01 PM

Post #2 of 30 (4407 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post | Private Reply

The beggars tend to be where folks are most likely to give them a coin. In tourist towns, it is where the tourists are. In the rest of the country away from the tourist areas, the beggars are most likely to be found at street corners with long signal lights. They walk from car to car holding out a hand or cup then scurry away as the light changes. I dump all my one and two paso coins in the ash tray to give to the ladies - they are almost always women, often with a baby on their back.

I-have-so-much-and-they-have-so-little is an issue that we each have to resolve in our own way. Sometimes it is not easy.

Have a good visit to the real side of Mexico.

Rolly Pirate

(This post was edited by Rolly on Oct 28, 2002, 8:02 PM)

sparks

Oct 28, 2002, 8:03 PM

Post #3 of 30 (4399 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] I beg your pardon

Can't Post |

I guess living on the prairies is some excuse but I find beggars in Seattle, Mexico City or any city I've been in in the last 50 years (even where I work in some form). I always try to judge the individual that approaches me but sometimes that is difficult when in Mexico. In the states my rule is; are they asking for booze money. Then you come to Mexico and find a woman sitting in a doorway, who appears to be from an indigenous tribe - holding a baby ... or a fat crazy Mexican eating fire at intersections .... or kids wiping your windows when you stop ... or even just beach vendors who don't take NO for an answer until your second week there.

I won't even tell you about old women on the streets of Hong Kong or "hey sailor" calls from the alleys of Olongapo, Philippines.

It's a crazy world and does not meet the ideals of many of us. I'm still learning to be gracious, a work in progress!

Do Maz and have a great time.

Oct 28, 2002, 9:55 PM

Post #4 of 30 (4365 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post | Private Reply

Louisa writes:

Quote

....But, I understand from friends that there are a lot of beggars in mazatlan.....

I never noticed or thought of Mazatlan as having an unusually high density of beggers in comparison to other areas in Mexico. Overall I'd say the number is lower than the number I encounter every day in the major urban area I live in in the US, and those in Mexico are a whole bunch less frightening (and I'm not exactly what you'd call scrawny or mugging bait).

Somewhat like Rolly, I tend to separate my change as I receive it, placing the low denomination coins in a readily accessible pocket, and the bigger denomination coins into another less accessible one. When I see somebody I view to be worthy or troubling, I'll dip into the small change pocket and randomly pull out a few coins. Smile when you make your offering, murmur "vayo con dios", and move on with clean conscious and soul. If you've run out of small change in the pocket, shrug, murmur "vayo con dios", and again move on with clean conscious. One other thing that I've found is that Mexican beggers seem to be grateful for whatever you give them, even if it's a few centavos. Try dropping fourteen cents into a panhandler's cup in the US and you're quite likely to get roundly cursed.

Georgia

Oct 29, 2002, 4:23 AM

Post #5 of 30 (4343 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post | Private Reply

Hi, Louisa, it seems like we all agree on this for the most part. I, too, keep a "peso pocket" for beggars. In some communities there are disabled people who are street entertainers -- beggars, as well, I guess. I give them a bit more for the pleasure they bring me. I do the same in New York City, by the way, for the street entertainers: it's part of what adds to the texture of the city and I do enjoy the music and dancing. I don't worry about what people are going to do with the money: that is their problem and not for me to judge. You will also see some older vendors who sell gum and the like. I always buy some -- don't chew gum, but the grandkids do. For the most part these folks who beg or sing or sell gum are gracious and pleasant. From my point of view, they are doing me a service by giving me the opportunity to share -- even if it is just a little.

I will tell you that I have Mexican friends who are of the opinion that some beggars live better than people who work for a living and they resent the beggars. There are other Mexicans who do as others on the board do: keep a "peso pocket" for the beggars.

keith

Oct 29, 2002, 7:35 AM

Post #6 of 30 (4304 views)

Shortcut

all you soft touches

Can't Post |

If the fishing is good, it never fails, you get more and more fishermen. If you want more beggars around, dig deep. Try going into a marketplace anywhere in Latin America. Give money to the first beggar you see, and then just stand there and give some to every beggar who comes up to you. Pretty soon you will have people who didn't even think about begging getting in line. Which reminds me, I could use some money; think how good you'll feel and how clear your conscience will be after you've sent me all the money you could get along without. Do it right away so you can get on with your day. (Be sure to send me your address so I can work you again tomorrow.)

PS If you want to help people, help someone you know who needs help. Do it without them having to ask. Then keep quiet about it.

Bret in Portland

Oct 29, 2002, 8:02 AM

Post #7 of 30 (4285 views)

Shortcut

Re: [keith] all you soft touches

Can't Post |

I have found the most reliable guideline is to watch what the locals do. If I see middle class locals giving to an old man, I do the same. If I see a beggar targeting only gringos and not bothering with the locals, he usually doesn't get anything from me.

Esteban

Oct 29, 2002, 9:44 AM

Post #8 of 30 (4259 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post | Private Reply

There are people begging but not even close to what you'll find in Seattle. Once in a while a drunk will give you the eye and want some coin for a drink but still, not half as aggressive as I've seen in Seattle and other cities, south, on the west coast. You'll find that the beggars will be quickly hustled out of campgrounds/trailerparks and out of street cafes. I've also seen people in need hitting various restaurants for food and the restauranteur will give them a little something to eat. They know the streets and know who is who.

Luisa

Oct 29, 2002, 11:17 AM

Post #9 of 30 (4231 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post |

In Guanajuato, where I live, there is a so-called mafia that trucks in women and children and places them on the street to beg (one version has it that the children are not placed with their mothers), then picks them up at the end of the day. During periods where more tourists than usual are in town, such as the Festival Cervantino, there are noticeably more beggars. The DIF (Desarollo Integral de la Familia, a government social agency) is running a radio spot asking people to give to it rather than to beggars.

writerJoe

Oct 29, 2002, 3:43 PM

Post #10 of 30 (4180 views)

Shortcut

I really have a problem with this, Kieth!

Can't Post |

You say, Ïf you want to help someone, help someone you know.¨ Well obviously, man, beggers don´t "know" anyone, that's why they are where they are at! Does that make them, or their need - invalid? Too many people living in comfort are where they are because of "who they know," rather than through the virtues of hard work and initiative. LUCK in life IS a reality, and if there were not any so-called "soft touches" around, this old world would be a whole lot grimmer than it already is!

Sherrill

Oct 30, 2002, 12:16 AM

Post #11 of 30 (4114 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post |

Dear Louisa,

You sound like a very kind person. I think if you follow your instincts, you will do the right thing as most of the responses imply. Don't pay attention to the cynics but do consider your personal safety-be smart. I live in the Yucatan and the city I shop/do business in is Merida. I do what others have suggested re my car and purse/actually in my pocket so I never open my purse: keep small change available. I find it very interesting here that well-heeled residents almost reach out to give something to the poor. They don't wait to be asked. Have seen the same blind indian woman in the center of town. Residents have their change in their hand before she asks. And she is not aggressive. I asked a friend about this. He told me that people feel it is their responsibility to help those less fortunate. And the young and stylishly dressed respond in kind. Very impressive social point of view. Some mothers and fathers are doing a great job of raising sociallly concious young ones.

Georgia

Oct 30, 2002, 5:03 AM

Post #12 of 30 (4101 views)

Shortcut

Re: [keith] all you soft touches

Can't Post | Private Reply

Hi, Keith, I understand your point of view, truly. But, I know there are people around me (in the US and in Mexico) who have very little compared to what I have. If someone feigns poverty to get a handout, that is their problem. That does not deter me from doing what -- very little -- I choose to do. In Spain, where I lived as a girl, beggars were considered a blessing because they gave folks who had resources the opportunity to share them and thus be blessed by the beggar: Dios le bendiga. And so I am a soft touch -- except for the likes of the little Indian girl in Tlaquepaque who told me one peso wasn't sufficient -- she wanted five. She got nothing. But I did admire her spunk. She'll go places! And she won't need my help either. Smile

lucy

Oct 30, 2002, 6:02 AM

Post #13 of 30 (4090 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post |

Hi Louisa
Your post confuses me. Yes, there are beggers all over the world. There are plenty in the US. Have seen a few in Toronto and other Canadian cities. What does that mean.

Guess you could just set a budget. Many Gringos living in Mexico ,or other places in the world, have "adopted" one or more people to help. Guess you could give some of your time to help the less fortunate. There are so many positive things you can do. Why waste your time feeling guilty about those that have less than you. JUST DO SOMETHING and enjoy your ability to help.

keith

Oct 30, 2002, 6:24 AM

Post #14 of 30 (4088 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Georgia] all you soft touches

Can't Post |

From time to time I used to drive my son by the Mission so we could check out all the homeless guys standing around down there waiting for a handout. I'd tell him, "See all these guys. There are probably a bunch of sad stories here, but the main reason these guys are without a home and without a job is because they don't want to or don't know how to cooperate." And I still believe that is the basic situation. If you are willing to work as hard as you can and cooperate, you will be able to find a situation where you can put food in your mouth and a roof over your head no matter how downtrodden or screwed up you are. Now, you can look at begging as a form of this: I'll let you give me some money so you can feel better about yourself and your situation. "Charity could never be if someone weren't worse off than me." (Blake) Go ahead, dig out those coins. It is a cheap thrill. But don't think you are resolving anyone's sad situation. You are helping perpetuate it and encouraging more and more of the same. I recall, early one morning in the market in San Salvador, watching a beggar calmly blackening his arm with a candle.

alex .

Oct 30, 2002, 7:20 AM

Post #15 of 30 (4068 views)

Shortcut

my brother tried working once...

Can't Post | Private Reply

he says he didn't care for it.
Alex

sparks

Oct 30, 2002, 7:57 AM

Post #16 of 30 (4058 views)

Shortcut

Re: [keith] all you soft touches

Can't Post |

There but for the grace of Jefe go I. About 12 years ago I came real close to the financial edge with a back injury. A woman with child or an 80 year old are more than likely to pull my strings unless they are outside a Banamex every day. Personal choices.

Hey, back in the hippy days asking for spare change was cool. Good way to get out and meet people as well.

scott

Oct 30, 2002, 9:34 AM

Post #17 of 30 (4038 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Louisa] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post |

Giving to beggers only encourages them to keep begging.

What these people need, the people of Mexico, is someone to help lower the prices here.

Mexico does not need any more missionaries building bible schools and churches, what they need is someone to help reduce the basic expenses.

Giving to a begger is like putting another two or three pesos into the pockets of Carlos Slim or Bimbo. If you really want to help, forget the bible schools, and consider doing something about the cost of living.

misslynsd

Oct 30, 2002, 10:39 AM

Post #18 of 30 (4021 views)

Shortcut

Re: [lucy] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post |

Here in southern California, because of the good weather we have street people out all the time and our usual habit is to ignore them. When I was visiting a friend in Mexico I was humbled by her mother's compassion. We passed many beggars and she dug in her pocket every time, giving coins along with a blessing. Following her example, I began carrying coins in my pocket to have ready. We who have so much should share in whatever way we can. If there are beggars on the street in Mexico, I am sure the great majority of them are genuinely in need. It is not my business how they choose to spend the money. That is not to say that we shouldn't also give to organized charities. If we are short on money, we can offer our time. There are more than enough volunteer opportunities to suit everyone's abilities.

Marlene

Oct 30, 2002, 5:25 PM

Post #19 of 30 (3968 views)

Shortcut

Re: [scott] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post | Private Reply

Like what?

Maat

Oct 30, 2002, 7:36 PM

Post #20 of 30 (3937 views)

Shortcut

Re: [keith] all you soft touches

Can't Post |

Sorry, I have a basic disagreement with almost that whole thing. Who are we to stand in judgement on what a person is able, or unable, to do. It's all very nice to sit in a car and drive around looking at homeless people and commenting on how if they really put their nose to the grindstone they could find work. Unfortunately, Life very rarely feels the need to fulfil all the "shoulds" in life. Someone may have all the desire and cooperation in the world and still not find anything. It would be wonderful if everyone "lived up to their potential". But let me tell you another fact of life, not all people have the ability to do that. A lot of people struggle just to stay alive, and their potential will Never be realized.

We're all made differently and we all have to function as well as we can in whatever world we make for ourselves. And some peoples' worlds seem to be limiting, frightening, and dark. But we cannot sit and second-guess how they arrived where they are and why they can't find a "better" life.

I can't judge someone's worth. I wouldn't even want to try. In these instances when confronted by a beggar, I have a responsibility to Be my brother's (and sister's) keeper, without question and without judgment.

Until the world is a place where there is no hunger, where everyone has shelter, food, education, until the world is a place where no child ever dies of starvation, I will keep my omnipotent judgments to myself and help however I can. Even if it means handing coin to a beggar.

scott

Oct 30, 2002, 8:50 PM

Post #21 of 30 (3937 views)

Shortcut

Re: [Marlene] Cost of Living

Can't Post |

Marlene, are you looking for a specific list of things which are expensive? I tried very hard not to list them in my message, assuming that I wouldn't be enlightening anyone with anything.

Things which have affected me, maybe not usual things, but things which have irked me this week:

-a prescription drug in Canada, three month supply is $80USD more expensive in Mexico. Plus its much less potent here.

-Contact Lenses, just barely shy of 2 times more expensive.

-Yesterday I was trying to get through to someone, whose line was busy. On a Payphone. Telmex decided to dock me $1 peso each time I tried.

-Loaf of bread, pan bimbo costs about $1.95-$2.00 cdn, compared to $0.99 cents at home. $2.00 would get you a premium variety such as Texas Toast or Multigrain, but the basic Pan Bimbo sliced white bread is $0.99 cents at most places (ie Loblaws, IGA).

Mexicans pay so much more for these basic things than we do at home. Its no wonder there is so much poverty. I'm sure we Canadians could make a pretty big list of things more expensive here than at home, though maybe its not as noticeable for Americans. And sure you can say its our low dollar, but even still we make way more than the average Mexican, so it doesn't matter its still expensive. One hour at a minimum wage job in Canada pays more than 53 million Mexicans make in a day (based on a thenewsmexico.com article I saw a couple weeks ago, and the thread that was on here at that time). And yet, I as a Canadian, albeit a poor one myself, find Mexico very expensive. So I can't imagine what its like for the poorer Mexicans (which is the majority). I feel very sorry for them.

My argument is that if you want to help poor mexicans, lower the prices of these basic things. Would it not make more sense to do whatever you can to help lower the cost of living, rather than using all your charity money to build new churches and pay so called missionaries to hang out downtown preaching about the bible to people who would be better off with food on the their tables instead. Yes I have a personal beef with one of the missionaries here, but just in general do something about theses costs, lobby the government (from your own country I suppose), or something like that if you really want to help them out. Giving them change only prolongs their problems, their missery, and their suffering.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find something less expensive in Mexico than Canada, aside from public transit, silver, and crafts. I suppose maybe limes too. Or lower quality produce at a market. But other wise, Mexico is very expensive. And considering we in general have more money than they do, it just seems a little backwards to me.

Am I alone in thinking that people should do something about this, instead of just giving to beggers on the street and building churches so they can find god? Instead of the Americans downtown passing out flyers trying to convert people to baptism why don't they hand out flyers denouncing the price of bread, electricity, telephones, drugs, food, gas, and other basic necessities. Americans could very well feel differently, but I don't think the rent is particularly cheap either, considering the houses are basically brick boxes with some plaster, with no heating, insulation, clean water, even steady supplies of water, air conditioning systems, or even properly sealed windows and doors a good majority of the time... With all the wierd bugs they have here, I've yet to see a screened window. Point is that for the same price as what would rent you a decent townhouse where I am from in south western Ontario, in Mexico you can get an attached house of the type mentioned above.

For me, and all foreigners, we are here by choice. Obviously there are many things I do like about Mexico, which is why I am here in the first place. If it gets too much for me, I can always go home. But for the most part, Mexicans are stuck here, stuck with these prices, and I just find it incredibly sad.

gbprancer

Oct 30, 2002, 9:29 PM

Post #22 of 30 (3905 views)

Shortcut

Re: [misslynsd] Begging-Mazatlan

Can't Post |

Hiya All Actually ... I got alot out of reading most other peoples posts on this topic... and I truly feel more at ease with the plight of street beggers in Mexico...seeing as I have led a mostly sheltered life in that area...and it was rather a cultural shock for me... while in Morelia.. seing it on a daily basis for three months... last year at this time.. It sure tested my reservations..mainly for lack of exposure to it...So I am very much more enlightened as to lessons of generosity posted here in this Mexico Connect forum...Perhaps sharing feelings here... seeing as we have much to share and learn on the topic...I am open to voice my response to people ( not so subtle opinion) in a rather non smacking way..who knows ...it might just soften the stance a bit of some negative attitudes surounding beggers....if we were to consider walking a mile in their shoes...before judgments prevail.. I know I have full intentions of retiring to Mexico...I left a part of my heart and soul in Morelia and I want to return to this beautiful city.it's people culture..and all... Thanks for sharing Lyn :) Gerald...a Canadian longing for Mexico

Georgia

Oct 31, 2002, 5:23 AM

Post #23 of 30 (3889 views)

Shortcut

Re: [scott] Cost of Living

Can't Post | Private Reply

Scott, while I agree that fixing the underlying problem that produces the beggar is a noble idea, please consider two things:

1. As guests in Mexico we can't get involved in politics.

2. For the beggar in the street the response, "No, I won't give you a peso today because I'm working on the larger problem of povery in Mexico," (U.S., Argentina, Jamaica, wherever) is not helpful to that person at that moment. Can you imagine this person being grateful that s/he can't eat that day because potential donors are "working on the larger problem?"

When I was a young girl I spent a great deal of time in Mexico City. There were all kinds of "beggar scams" at that time as I am sure there are now. Although I do note that there are far fewer and less aggressive beggars now than there were then. People would actually maim children to take them out in public for begging. I am not naive or romantic about the nature of many beggars.

However, having said that, do you really think that not giving to beggars will solve the poverty problem? Beggars have been around for thousands of years. Greater minds than ours have tried to deal with the poverty that gives rise to the proliferation of street beggars. It still exists and so do beggars. Would you rather they become thieves?

keith

Oct 31, 2002, 9:14 AM

Post #24 of 30 (3849 views)

Shortcut

ok, 'tis better to give . . .

Can't Post |

but keep in mind that the more you give the less likely the beggar is to buscar otro remedio (look for another solution), and the more likely others are to emulate his success. There are places in Asia where the begging monks have the towns they live in organized to where they feed them every day. If you want a parallel situation in the town where you live, give regularly and often. If we were to think of the charity situation as a demand/supply relationship, most people would say the beggar = demand and the giver = supply. Not so. These two elements feed off each other and are so intertwined that the giver is at least a much responsible for the situation as the reciever.

As long as I'm all worked up here, let me add: please, the next time you are in a small town and a bunch of kids approach you with curiosity, don't scatter coins or candy or anything else among them. If you do that, they don't think you are generous or nice or santa claus. They think you are stupid, and they hope the next gringo will be the same way. And pretty soon they are holding out their hands. If they do this regularly they are beggars. And they figure out right away that if they look pitiful and whine, they will do better at it. And this leads to people writing Mexico Connects saying, "We were thinking about moving to La Laja, but we heard there are a lot of beggars . . ."

alex .

Oct 31, 2002, 4:47 PM

Post #25 of 30 (3752 views)

Shortcut

ponte a trabajar

Can't Post | Private Reply

is what I tell them. In Tijuana there is a job for anyone who wants one. If someone has the werewithal to stand at a traffic signal all day, in the heat or cold, carrying a baby, then they can get a flippin' job. The reason they don't? Begging IS MORE PROFITABLE. When I was border commuting I would see a pair of guys, one in a wheelchair, the other pushing him along between the rows of cars begging. After awhile they would switch places and the other would push for awhile.
Alex

1 2 View All