Newsweek article on our drug war

Newsweek article on our drug war

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http://www.newsweek.com/id/235362

Rolly Pirate

(This post was edited by esperanza on Mar 24, 2010, 5:07 PM)

Reefhound

Mar 24, 2010, 2:58 PM

Post #2 of 29 (4261 views)

Re: [Rolly] Newsweek article on our drug war

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The potheads aren't gonna like that one...

(This post was edited by esperanza on Mar 24, 2010, 5:08 PM)

Rolly

Mar 28, 2010, 7:51 AM

Post #3 of 29 (4043 views)

Re: [Rolly] Newsweek article on our drug war

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Here is nother interesting article:

http://www.hcn.org/....4/the-war-next-door

Rolly Pirate

Mar 28, 2010, 11:58 AM

Post #4 of 29 (3989 views)

Re: [Rolly] Newsweek article on our drug war

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"The question is thus not whether Mexico should fight this war, but how to win it. "

I think that quote reflects the opinion of most middle class Mexicanos and the business community in areas that are most affected by the drug cartels. This war is a small first step towards reducing the endemic corruption that plagues Mexican political institutions. The fact that the war is proving so difficult to win simply reflects how deep rooted the problems are.

Mar 28, 2010, 1:04 PM

Post #5 of 29 (3973 views)

Re: [Altahabana] Newsweek article on our drug war

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People wanting liberty to live as they please, ingest what they wish, take advantage of lucrative markets, and live with minimal government interference are very deep rooted desires. People will fight wars and bring about revolutions to attain or retain liberties. Very deep-rooted indeed.

Reefhound has asked at other times what happens with the narco henchmen if the governments end the prohibition, fo they focus on other crimes and extortion? Will society's problems worsen in that event? What would happen, then, if the war on drugs was won? Either outcome seems unlikely. Is the status quo with ever increasing violence the only forseeable future? For forty years it is all we've had. No solution in sight.

Reefhound

Mar 28, 2010, 1:15 PM

Post #6 of 29 (3969 views)

Re: [Peter] Newsweek article on our drug war

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"Winning" the war on drugs would mean the most violent players were behind bars or dead so what happens then would be peace. But it's unreasonable to expect the war to be "won" as in over and done with. No one expects the fight against crime to ever be complete, do they? The goal is to keep it under control.

My outside perspective is that there wouldn't be this massive violence and difficult war if the corruption had not been allowed and accepted for many decades. So calling off the "war" and putting up with it now in the hopes of reduced violence will just be aggravating the future difficulties. If you allow the cartels to infiltrate and control the police and other institutions, you not only lose the integrity of those organizations with respect to drugs but with respect for everything.

Mar 28, 2010, 2:31 PM

Post #7 of 29 (3945 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Newsweek article on our drug war

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Crime will end when no crimes exist, when all behavior is permitted, somewhere. I would like to see murderers live with other murderers, thieves with thieves, drunk drivers with others, etc., not just in prisons but in their own free and productive societies, only protection of children should be required. Socialists with socialists, wingnuts with wingnuts, who need not be entitled to their own brand of liberty?

Justice could be carried out by relocating offenders against their community's standards find their ideal place in the world, and offering means of reform to allow those with changing ideals to rejoin a larger general community where an impeccable standard is the norm. Is there a valid reason that all should be integrated and expected to live under one abritrary standard of conduct? That in a world of this grandeur one size should fit all?

Is the use of canabis so abhorrent that a small majority should dictate that people should die and others incarcerated and deprived of all liberties? No place in the world permits use of that natural substance, and only few places offer a very limited tolerance. Yet as more become aware of its virtues it has become increasingly popular and accepted by a very large minority. So the battle has been taken to the streets to the detriment of all except the trafficers and government institutions that profit from drug war, both of whom have become very powerful, and neither of whom want to end prohibition and lose their cash cow.

That leaves only the people that see the benefit with little or no harm, and their neighbor who has blood in his eyes and is more than willing to take away everything, home, family, and livelihood from the other because he has been told it is the right thing to do, because it is the law.

(This post was edited by Peter on Mar 28, 2010, 3:14 PM)

cookj5

Mar 28, 2010, 2:39 PM

Post #8 of 29 (3942 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Newsweek article on our drug war

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The fundamental problem is that we have made a product illegal that millions of people in the US want to consume. That, of course, makes it more valuable and therefore brings huge profits to those who make, smuggle, distribute, and sell the product.

Sooner or later, as with any highly profitable capitalist enterprise, these operations get more and more centralized and integrated. This creates even more profit for the people at the top of the centralized organizations, and employment at least, if not riches, for vast numbers of people.

Then, as these organizations start to seriously compete for turf, violence increases between them, since since there are no legal rules or legitimate channels by which such issues can be adjusted peacefully.

In turn, because the illegality brings attention from law enforcement, efforts are made, usually successful, to focus some part of the vast profits toward buying off as many levels of law enforcement as are necessary to keep things running smoothly. When the military is brought in, the same dynamic applies. Given the low levels of pay for police and military of all ranks, compared to the vast amounts of money available to buy cooperation, how could it be otherwise?

So now we have not only the hundreds of thousands of people engaged in some form of the drug business, and a huge network of police and military, all sharing in the illegal profits provided by a population of many millions who want their recreational drugs and don't see or care much about how the drugs come to them.

And, of course, those in the police/law enforcement/military bureaucracies who are genuinely fighting the drug cartels find that the power and resources flowing to them only increase as the fight goes on, and therefore have a vested interest in keeping the "War on Drugs" going.

Success by the authorities in capturing or killing top drug figures does not reduce violence, but increases it. The reasons are easy to understand. The top figures are, after all, essentially businessmen. They seek stability and smooth-running operations to keep up the flow of profits. Large scale violence, aside from an occasional turf war, distrupts this smooth flow and brings unwanted attention. When these stabilizing figures are removed, power struggles erupt over who will replace them, or who will get which piece of a fragmenting organization. The more fragmentation, the more violence.

What is the answer? Remove the profit by making the product legal, regulating its quality and distribution, taxing it at all levels, and using the taxes generated for genuine drug education (forget "just say no") and rehabilitation services.

Now the illegal operations either go out of business or transform themselves into legal enterprises. The cost of the product plummets, removing the vast profits and the incentives and ability to corrupt the authorities. With no more need to focus on illegal drug trafficking, law enforcement can be refocused on more realistic crime-fighting efforts, and the military can be extricated from civilian law enforcement, an area for which it is entirely unsuited. Vast resources now devoted to the military and law enforcement in the so-called "War on Drugs" can be devoted to more productive uses.

And the US can stay the hell out of Mexico, where its history of involvement has had universally unfortunate results.

richmx2

Mar 28, 2010, 3:05 PM

Post #9 of 29 (3926 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Newsweek article on our drug war

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"Winning" the war on drugs would mean the most violent players were behind bars or dead so what happens then would be peace.

In that case, the obvious answer is air-strikes against Texas gun dealers and Wall Street bankers.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

deaconmoss

Mar 28, 2010, 3:20 PM

Post #10 of 29 (3919 views)

Re: [richmx2] Newsweek article on our drug war

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My wise friend, you have hit the proverbial nail right on the head.

see saw sallie

Mar 28, 2010, 3:50 PM

Post #11 of 29 (3908 views)

Re: [Altahabana] Newsweek article on our drug war

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Quote

And though we give Mexico half a billion dollars a year to encourage its army to fight drug merchants, this alleged war has a curious feature: Almost no soldiers ever die. For example, in Juarez, over 4,200 citizens have been slain in two years. In the same period, with 7,000 to 10,000 soldiers in town, the military has suffered three dead.

And this is why people are afraid to go to Mexico now. I don't intend to stay away, but I do intend to change plans of driving down and fly instead (me and 2 kids... while hubby drives).

Reefhound

Mar 28, 2010, 4:18 PM

Post #12 of 29 (3899 views)

Re: [cookj5] Newsweek article on our drug war

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Can anyone tell me what percentage of cartel profits are from marijuana?

Mar 28, 2010, 4:29 PM

Post #13 of 29 (3886 views)

Re: [Reefhound] Newsweek article on our drug war

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In Reply To

Can anyone tell me what percentage of cartel profits are from marijuana?

Do not underestimate the groundswell of support building in the US for the legalization of crystal meth and crack cocaine.

La Isla

Mar 28, 2010, 4:30 PM

Post #14 of 29 (3886 views)

Re: [Rolly] Newsweek article on our drug war

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A first quick read of this article leaves me with the impression that it's an attempt to balance the usually negative reporting on the situation in Mexico. I think it gives too much emphasis to the possibility of things changing for the better in the near future and not enough to the present, grim reality on the ground.

Mar 28, 2010, 5:44 PM

Post #15 of 29 (3871 views)

Re: [Altahabana] Newsweek article on our drug war

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In Reply To

Can anyone tell me what percentage of cartel profits are from marijuana?

Do not underestimate the groundswell of support building in the US for the legalization of crystal meth and crack cocaine.

The only groundswell in that regard is the suggestion that ALL drugs be legalized to end prohibition. That is an extreme view agument, for or against, by those that consider these drugs and marijuana are properly in the same category.
Although a good case could be argued to end ALL DRUG PROHIBITION, the popular demand, however, is to end the prohibition on marijuana.

Both cocaine and methamphetamine have long had legitimate medical uses and have been prescribed, marijuana, until recent times, never, and even now questionable about the legitimacy of those scrips. However, cocaine and methamphetamine are dangerous and in most all cases are abused, therefore there is demand and a market for coke and meth as well. CRACK cocaine and CRYSTAL meth are buzzwords for these type arguments to take them to their most extreme and absurd "anti" agenda; yet even there a total lift of prohibition could have merit.

Mexico does not or cannot grow the coca plant and interdiction efforts should rightly come into play before reaching the country. Marijuana is grown in Mexico but is easily grown in the US where a higher grade is generally produced. Anyone with a fairly simple lab and access to relatively simple chemicals can produce methamphetamine and any number of other drugs. It is basically a matter of supplying a demand. Due to its bulk marijuana is more difficult to conceal so as a matter of economics trade in other substances has increased over the years. Crystal and crack are the most refined forms of their parent drug, the most concealable, and the most dangerous.

Good question about the percentage of profit for these. Marijuana is probably on the decline but only its profits benefit the backwoods farme, though much more so the cartels, no doubt.

Mar 28, 2010, 8:33 PM

Post #16 of 29 (3826 views)

Re: [Peter] Newsweek article on our drug war

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In Reply To

Can anyone tell me what percentage of cartel profits are from marijuana?

Do not underestimate the groundswell of support building in the US for the legalization of crystal meth and crack cocaine.

CRACK cocaine and CRYSTAL meth are buzzwords for these type arguments to take them to their most extreme and absurd "anti" agenda; yet even there a total lift of prohibition could have merit.

Good question about the percentage of profit for these. Marijuana is probably on the decline but only its profits benefit the backwoods farme, though much more so the cartels, no doubt.

Mar 28, 2010, 10:17 PM

Post #17 of 29 (3807 views)

Re: [Altahabana] Newsweek article on our drug war

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In Reply To

Can anyone tell me what percentage of cartel profits are from marijuana?

Do not underestimate the groundswell of support building in the US for the legalization of crystal meth and crack cocaine.

Yes, the more the economic benefits and portability of the truly dangerous drugs make them a more profitable commodity with lower prices the more dangers we are loosing on the streets, thanks in no small part to the ignorance we promote with our message about all drugs being the same. Add to that the focus on the easier interdictability of marijuana and efforts toward its eradication our current programs steer the youth down a more dangerous path.

Are you wanting a medal for your own gallant strides toward encouraging use of the more dangerous drugs? Good effort. I understand now you are a proud supporter of that ground swell.

Zorba

Mar 28, 2010, 10:52 PM

Post #18 of 29 (3798 views)

Re: [Peter] Newsweek article on our drug war

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Bah. Make a deal with the drug cartels that they can freely ship whatever they want as long as they don't harm the general population or threaten the government (carrot). If they don't adhere to that, the government can make things more difficult for them (stick). Let the US deal with its border and consumption problems. Mexico is obviously America's bitch.

Mar 29, 2010, 5:33 AM

Post #19 of 29 (3787 views)

Re: [Peter] Newsweek article on our drug war

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"Are you wanting a medal for your own gallant strides toward encouraging use of the more dangerous drugs? Good effort. I understand now you are a proud supporter of that ground swell."

I don't know if the quoted comment was in response to what I wrote (which is not there). What I understand now is that you are not discussing narco-violence in Mexico except in passing while you promote your views about the legalization of drugs in the US. I was hardly encouraging the use of cocaine or meth, just pointing out that they are the drugs which are generating the huge profits for the cartels and are precipitating the violence, not marijuana. Since neither of those drugs is even remotely on the US legalization radar, legalization of marijuana use (I assume that is what you are talking about) will have no impact on narco-violence.

(This post was edited by Altahabana on Mar 29, 2010, 5:34 AM)

Mar 29, 2010, 6:29 AM

Post #20 of 29 (3779 views)

Re: [Altahabana] Newsweek article on our drug war

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In Reply To

Since neither of those drugs is even remotely on the US legalization radar, legalization of marijuana use (I assume that is what you are talking about) will have no impact on narco-violence.

Legalization of marijuana, I believe, would still have a great impact on reducing Mexico's narco-violence, though decades of prohibition has now created a larger monster. Cocaine is produced beyond Mexico's borders, the great consumer nation of the United States will need to concentrate its interdiction efforts there if it refuses to accept the demand it has created, taking the problem out of Mexico's hands. Methamphetamine is too easily produced anywhere to make Mexico a grand player in that arena.

Decades of prohibition has produced large and powerful supply networks that will not easily go away until it loses economic viability. Ending prohibition on marijuana would go great lengths in satisfying a general drug-hunger.

Mar 29, 2010, 7:18 AM

Post #21 of 29 (3765 views)

Re: [Peter] Newsweek article on our drug war

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Distribution schemes for Columbian cocaine changed dramatically in 1997 after Columbia amended its constitution to allow extradition of Columbian nationals indicted for drug trafficking offenses under US federal long arm statutes. As a result the Columbian cartels got out of the North American coke market and the Mexican cartels became the exclusive brokers for Columbian cocaine in North America. Recognizing a opportunity some of the cartels have become major players in the North American meth market.

Profits from the two products and the accompanying competition for those profits is what is fueling the current wave of violence. Also many of the cartels are expanding the scope of their criminal enterprises to activities other than drug trafficking, an issue virtually ignored when this somewhat sensationalized issue gets international publicity. It is easy and convenient to place the US at the center of everything on this issue, but I believe the drug war is being fought as much to reduce the domestic threat the cartels present as to control the flow of drugs into the US.

I support the legalization of marijuana for recreational use, not that it matters. But I just don't see how that would have a significant impact on Mexican narco-violence and certainly not any short term effect. Legalization of drugs is a US domestic issue, not a realistic solution to the cartel problem which involves much more than drug trafficking.

see saw sallie

Mar 29, 2010, 8:44 AM

Post #22 of 29 (3729 views)

Re: [Altahabana] Newsweek article on our drug war

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Quote

...after Columbia amended its constitution to allow extradition of Columbian nationals indicted for drug trafficking offenses under US federal long arm statutes. As a result the Columbian cartels got out of the North American coke market and the Mexican cartels became the exclusive brokers for Columbian cocaine in North America.

I suspected something like that is what affected the Columbians participation.

I hear many here talk about how NAFTA encouraged this current drug issue. How?

Thanks!
Sallie

Mar 29, 2010, 11:09 AM

Post #23 of 29 (3677 views)

Re: [Altahabana] Newsweek article on our drug war

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I support the legalization of marijuana for recreational use, not that it matters. But I just don't see how that would have a significant impact on Mexican narco-violence and certainly not any short term effect. Legalization of drugs is a US domestic issue, not a realistic solution to the cartel problem which involves much more than drug trafficking.
______

Too little too late? Perhaps. Lifting pot prohibition in the 60's or 70's might have been a complete solution then, and surely we would not have the problem so large as it exists today. Still, it would satisfy a drug hunger that would weaken today's stronghold and allow authorities to apply efforts where they might more rightfully belong.

There is still a great deal of politics being played and eradication of marijuana is still viewed in the eyes of the public and the authorities as getting the job done. Every time a pot field is burned or a couple kilos interdicted great pats on the back are earned. Those helicopters with spotters flying over large expanses of terrain are not looking for coca fields, they don't exist here, and they are not expecting to find meth labs or hideouts for kidnappers unless those activities are being done out in the open, which they are not. And finding a pot field seldom leads anywhere close to the powerhouse of the cartels you describe, but it earns brownie points that bring more interdiction dollars.

Enforcing pot prohibition does nothing to aid that war, it only looks good on paper. Pot prohibition does matter, it brings more violence and death and wastes resources. A monster has been created, we've forced it out of hiding and now it is terrorizing the village.

richmx2

Mar 29, 2010, 12:55 PM

Post #24 of 29 (3655 views)

Re: [Peter] Newsweek article on our drug war

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The only groundswell in that regard is the suggestion that ALL drugs be legalized to end prohibition. That is an extreme view

Not in the least extreme. With the end of prohibition in the United States, very few people used moonshine, although it's a lot more powerful than the 80 proof stuff you buy in the liquor store (and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to produce). Grenshim's Law of Economics says that an inferior product that is widely and easily available will drive a better product out of the market every time. It's why people drive Hondas and not Rolls-Royces, for example -- likewise, they'll buy cocaine and not crack.

Anyway, what the users do is not Mexico's business particularly. With only about a half million narcotics users, narcotics use isn't a major social issue anyway. Mexico's issues stem from over-dependence on U.S. exports (which include marijuana and poppy derivatives) while at the same time, the United States gives"most favored nation" trade advantages to non-NAFTA nations like China. Find Mexico new markets (internal, pan-Latin, European, Asian) and products that return the same business advantages as the narcotics market and OUR problem is solved. Legalization is a U.S. issue, not a Mexican one.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

Zorba

Mar 29, 2010, 2:26 PM

Post #25 of 29 (3633 views)