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Rolly

Feb 7, 2010, 8:04 AM

Post #1 of 33 (5828 views)

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Gay marriage in México City

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From the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/...as/07mexico.html?hpw

Rolly Pirate

Ivester

Feb 7, 2010, 12:22 PM

Post #2 of 33 (5779 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Gay marriage in México City

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That's great news. We shouldn't forget that Mexico also abolished slavery and capital punishment before it's northern neighbor got around to doing so.

Zorba

Feb 7, 2010, 11:59 PM

Post #3 of 33 (5696 views)

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Re: [Ivester] Gay marriage in México City

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Im surprised that this would get passed in Mexico. Generally speaking (please do not be so pedantic as to comment that "You can't generalize") I have found Mexicans to be macho, homophobic and conservative when it comes to matters of the family. If it went to a referendum it would get shot down by a large margin.

(This post was edited by Zorba on Feb 8, 2010, 12:02 AM)

gpkgto

Feb 8, 2010, 6:16 AM

Post #4 of 33 (5664 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Gay marriage in México City

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Mexico City is virtually a different "country" within Mexico. Many things are different in DF.

lostinmex

Feb 8, 2010, 6:20 AM

Post #5 of 33 (5665 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Gay marriage in México City

Our Mexican friends claim that Guadalajara is the gay capital. I don't know the numbers but there is a gay pride celebration every year in Guad. But definitely DF is very different from the rest of the country. It's a world-class capital,the rest is a provincial backwater.

gpkgto

Feb 8, 2010, 7:17 AM

Post #6 of 33 (5652 views)

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I know Guad claims to be the gay capital, but it doesn't compare to DF. I went to the gay pride parade in DF in 2008 (the 30th anniversary of the parade) and there were 200,000 marchers according to news reports. The citizens of DF are more tolerant of all types of people--just like most major cities of the world.

richmx2

Feb 8, 2010, 8:03 AM

Post #7 of 33 (5641 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Gay marriage in México City

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I have found Mexicans to be macho, homophobic and conservative when it comes to matters of the family.

So ... That's why there are laws to protect minorities FROM the majority and civil rights are not subject to referendum. And, I've found that Mexicans tend to also stay out of other people's business.

And at the risk of being "pedantic" what does "macho" mean? As a Spanish word, it simply means "male" and slightly under 50% of Mexicans are male. As an ENGLISH word -- first appearing in the 1920s -- it was (mis)used by English and American writers to mean certain positive stereotypes of Mexican (and later, in Hemingway's writing, Spanish) men. And, even then, never had anything to do with sexual orientation -- don't you remember the Village People?

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tonyburton

Feb 8, 2010, 8:32 AM

Post #8 of 33 (5635 views)

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Related to this subject is the extract from "Geo-Mexico, the geography and dynamics of modern Mexico" (Richard Rhoda and myself, 2010) - about gender inequalities - which has just been added to MexConnect's front page - see http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/3577-female-quality-of-life-in-mexico-geo-mexico-extract

Papirex

Feb 8, 2010, 8:41 AM

Post #9 of 33 (5630 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Gay marriage in México City

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My understanding of the meaning of the Spanish word macho in México is that it is generally a demeaning term, probably very close to the meaning of the word “chauvinist” in English. It epitomizes all of the negative qualities that some men have.

I learned the general use of that term here over 40 years ago, of course it depends on the tone of a conversation to know if it is being used negatively. If you look the word macho or machismo up in a good English/Spanish dictionary, the term dolt is usually included. It is a good word to eliminate from your vocabulary.

As to gay marriage, I have no opinion or objection, I do have at least two nieces that are gay. There may be more gay people in my family, I don't pry into any of their private lives. We all are what we are. I have my hands full taking care of myself, I don't worry about trying to control other peoples lives. If they like dogs or cats, they are OK with me.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

Zorba

Feb 8, 2010, 9:10 AM

Post #10 of 33 (5618 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Gay marriage in México City

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Of course DF is different than the backwaters. Even so, adoption by gay couples would not be supported by a long shot. Not even close.

Sure Mexicans tend to stay out of other people's business but that has more to do with apathy and a general desire to avoid conflict. It does not have to do with some sort of positive attitude by Mexicans towards gays.

The fact that there are laws in the books to protect minorities does not reflect the reality anymore than the laws to protect equality and justice in the country. After all Mexico has one of the best constitutions in the world, but it certainly is not realized.

"Macho"? What is "macho" in Mexico? Drinks hard and gets pissed, unreasonably jealous, traditional family roles, a bit of wife beating, homophobia, xenophobia.

lostinmex

Feb 8, 2010, 9:31 AM

Post #11 of 33 (5605 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Gay marriage in México City

So it would be better to have a child in an institution than adopted by a gay couple. How many kids have you adopted?

Zorba

Feb 8, 2010, 9:57 AM

Post #12 of 33 (5596 views)

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Re: [lostinmex] Gay marriage in México City

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Good question. Ideally it would be better that they be adopted into a good family that has both a mother and a father. Both are important and necessary.

joaquinx

Feb 8, 2010, 10:28 AM

Post #13 of 33 (5591 views)

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In Reply To

Good question. Ideally it would be better that they be adopted into a good family that has both a mother and a father. Both are important and necessary.

Yet, what should be done with all those single-parent households? I know of several families where this is true and the children were raised well.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

Zorba

Feb 8, 2010, 11:08 AM

Post #14 of 33 (5573 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Gay marriage in México City

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Nothing should be done, I guess. What can be done? What is done is done. Of course a child can be raised well by a single parent. However, the child would have been better off with two good parents rather than just one good parent. No doubt. Personally, I think the value of a father in the home is grossly underestimated and under emphasized.

Women who think that they can just go about having children without a father and claim that it doesnt matter are wrong. Fathers are important and it is selfish and arrogant for women to think otherwise.

(This post was edited by Zorba on Feb 8, 2010, 11:40 AM)

tonyburton

Feb 8, 2010, 11:11 AM

Post #15 of 33 (5570 views)

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Interesting as all these views are, can we please bring this discussion back to Mexico?

Zorba

Feb 8, 2010, 11:30 AM

Post #16 of 33 (5563 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Gay marriage in México City

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Yes, I was just going to add that to my post. How about this. Probably the worst thing you can call a Mexican guy is "puto". Good friends and normally easygoing acquaintances will come to blows if not retracted.

My point is that D.F. can go about passing all the laws it wants, it wont change the general population's attitudes towards gays which, although laissez faire, are not positive. Portraying Mexico as some sort of liberal open minded forwarded thinking egalitarian country is a joke. Please.

richmx2

Feb 8, 2010, 12:00 PM

Post #17 of 33 (5553 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Gay marriage in México City

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Two points. First, "gay marriage" is a minomer. It is "same gender marriage" which has nothing to do with "political correctness" and everything to do with clear language. Otherwise, there is an assumption marriage is only about sex, or that this marriage is something different from other marriages, which may or may not have anything to do with sexuality. Marriage since the beginning of time is just creatuing relationships between persons not related by blood, and all this does is recognize that such relationships may not be gender specific. Same gender marriages have been around for a number of years (including South Africa, a culture much more homophobic than Latin America) and are not uncommon among people who are not gay, but marrying for perfectly legitimate reasons like security, or to pass on property (as when a person with a terminal illness marries their caretaker) or other reasons.

Secondly, "gay adoptions", as in the NYTimes article, are for the most part are of children from prior relationships, or of blood relations (an niece being raised by an uncle or aunt, for example).

At any rate, what any of us think is all rock-n-roll. The only question is whether the Supreme Court upholds the Federal District Assembly's rights under the Constitution to regulate marriage and adoption laws... which it appears more than likely to do.

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gpkgto

Feb 8, 2010, 12:07 PM

Post #18 of 33 (5550 views)

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As is the case in many parts of the world (or at least those I have experienced) those who are more educated are more tolerant of others. Many people need more education.

esperanza

Feb 8, 2010, 1:09 PM

Post #19 of 33 (5527 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Gay marriage in México City

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In Reply To

Two points. First, "gay marriage" is a misnomer. It is "same gender marriage" which has nothing to do with "political correctness" and everything to do with clear language. Otherwise, there is an assumption marriage is only about sex, or that this marriage is something different from other marriages, which may or may not have anything to do with sexuality. Marriage since the beginning of time is just creating relationships between persons not related by blood, and all this does is recognize that such relationships may not be gender specific. Same gender marriages have been around for a number of years (including South Africa, a culture much more homophobic than Latin America) and are not uncommon among people who are not gay, but marrying for perfectly legitimate reasons like security, or to pass on property (as when a person with a terminal illness marries their caretaker) or other reasons.

Secondly, "gay adoptions", as in the NYTimes article, are for the most part are of children from prior relationships, or of blood relations (an niece being raised by an uncle or aunt, for example).

At any rate, what any of us think is all rock-n-roll. The only question is whether the Supreme Court upholds the Federal District Assembly's rights under the Constitution to regulate marriage and adoption laws... which it appears more than likely to do.

Bravo, extraordinary and precise post. Thank you.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

mazbook1

Feb 8, 2010, 5:52 PM

Post #20 of 33 (5489 views)

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Re: [lostinmex] Gay marriage in México City

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"But definitely DF is very different from the rest of the country. It's a world-class capital,the rest is a provincial backwater."

lostinmex, That's definitely a wealthy chilango attitude that you seem to have picked up from your wealthy, shoe-wearing, educated chilango friends and relatives. Balderdash!!!!

Papirex

Feb 9, 2010, 11:33 AM

Post #21 of 33 (5396 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Gay marriage in México City

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I must agree with you Mazbook. Having lived in México City before moving to close proximity to it, I think that there are many positive things about it as well as negatives, just like any large city in México. It is simply a very big town to me. It is my wifes' home town, and we have many family members living there, so we know a little bit about the place. My suegra still owns a house there, it has been in the family since 1932.

I like your use of the term “chilango” in this case. A lot of newcomers adopt that word without realizing it is a very derogatory word. I saw my wife turn and walk away from a Mexican man in Anchorage one time when he said “you chilangos”. She never spoke to him again. She told me then that she never speaks to anyone that insults her. Some years ago a lady posted that she witnessed a man, a stranger, being punched out when he called a Mexicano a Chilango.

Incidentally, the correct term for a person from México City if it is a male is Mexicano, and if it is a female it is Mexicana. Capitalino is also correct if they live in the D. F. portion of the city. My wife and I had quite a discussion about it when we first met in Alaska and I asked her what a person from México City was called. When she insisted that she was a Mexicana, I pointed out that everyone from the country of México was a Mexicano or a Mexicana.

She said “Yes, but I am from México (She meant the City) so I am a Mexicana”. It takes a long time in residence to absorb all the nuances of the language here. In most cases, it is better to lose the appellation “chilango” it is never nice. Your use of it was perfect.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

esperanza

Feb 9, 2010, 12:15 PM

Post #22 of 33 (5381 views)

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People from Mexico City are frequently called defeños (defeñas), a non-derogatory nickname that's a little less confusing than simply saying mexicano or mexicana. Most of my friends prefer defeño, although I do have one friend who always says he's a chilango and proud of it.

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richmx2

Feb 9, 2010, 11:05 PM

Post #23 of 33 (5326 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Gay marriage in México City

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Nah... it's those wealthy, shoe-wearing provincial conservatives bent on preserving the authoritarianism, class privilege and an reactionary social order that are the problem. But then again, as a shoeless "pinche chilango" (flip-flops don't count as shoes, do they?) out here in provincia ... I represent that remark. :-)

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Georgia

Feb 12, 2010, 10:53 AM

Post #24 of 33 (5236 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Gay marriage in México City

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Yes, Tony. I am very curious to know if Mexico has anything like the "full faith and credit" in the United States under which civil actions taken by one state are recognized (maybe) by another state. In other words, would the State of Jalisco, or the Mexican Federal government recognize a marriage performed between same sex partners for all civil purposes in the rest of the country?

mazbook1

Feb 12, 2010, 4:11 PM

Post #25 of 33 (5199 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Gay marriage in México City

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Georgia, The answer is yes, but with your "maybe" in parentheses just as you have it in your post. The one (almost) exception (and it may be peculiar to a couple of states that I know) is that if you want a divorce, you must get it in the same municipality and state where you got married (the same Civil Registry). This is one of the big reasons for the popularity of the "union libre" here in México as the younger folks become more mobile and returning to their former municipality to get a divorce can be an economic hardship. The union libre can provide all of the benifits of marriage without the need for a "legal" disssolution.

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