Actually my post got cut off somehow as I was called away from the computer. Whatever.
But many do happen to confuse the two. Probably the types looking for those nonexistant medals or prizes you mentioned earlier.
It is similar to fluency in the language. Some people might have a big vocabulary but speak poorly in Spanish yet consider themselves fluent. Some people think they know so much about Mexico, have Mexican friends, are invited to social functions and even by golly acquire a taste for tortillas and own a pair of huaraches but are far from assimilating into the culture.
(This post was edited by Manuel Dexterity on Feb 4, 2010, 3:42 PM)
....as you're pointing out, the important thing is to not kid yourself about who you are and where you're at.
Like the lady I know who moved to Mexico around 10 years ago, immersed herself in Spanish, got hit by a Frida Kahlo bolt and started dressing in embroidered frocks. She's still a gringa, through and through, but believes herself to be (somewhat) assimilated. Meanwhile, young Mexican girls born and bred here are dressing in short tops and jeans like in the U.S. The human comedy continues. Enjoy it.
I'd also like to hear what "going native" means. Our Mexican friends all wear shoes,own houses, have university degrees,and for the most part live better than virtually all of our friends in the US.
Perhaps they don't live in gated communities, make trips to the US to buy just about everything, shop only at Costco, Sam's, Walmart, Superama, and Home Depot. The don't eat a US franchised restaurants. The learn to speak Spanish.
I happy to hear that your friends here wear shoes.
We have any number of Mexican friends who live in gated communities, make trips to the US (not to mention Europe and South America) to buy just about everything, shop only at Costco etc (and Liverpool, Palacio de Hierro, etc), eat at US franchised restaurants and Spanish, Japanese, French, alta cocina mexicana and other super-high end restaurants, and speak Spanish like natives--duh, because they are natives. Surely you also know Mexican people of this socio-economic level. It sounds like you characterize Mexicans as poor, albeit with shoes...I hope not.
You said it. On weekends, we in this Gringo Ghetto (as some call it) here in the Lake Chapala area are invaded by a very affluent group of Mexicans on holiday. Some of these folks are so well dressed and coiffed as to seem ready for movie stardom. Maybe they are. In any case, their shoes cost more than a modest week at the beach. WOW.
It sounds like you characterize Mexicans as poor, albeit with shoes...I hope not
That was a very uncalled for comment on your part. esperanza, just because there is a comment, you don't have to put in your two-cents worth without further investigation. I think that this thread has outlived it's usefulness. _______ My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.
,,,,,,, eat at US franchised restaurants and Spanish, Japanese, French, alta cocina mexicana and other super-high end restaurants,
And I have seen these same people climb out of their BMWs, Audi's, Hummers etc in their Christian Louboutin shoes stand at the corner taco stand along with the rest of us chusma,having their tacos de tripa or buche.
That was a very uncalled for comment on your part. esperanza, just because there is a comment, you don't have to put in your two-cents worth without further investigation. I think that this thread has outlived it's usefulness.
Well, I think it has been and still is not only a cogent but an entertaining thread and see absolutely nothing offensive about Esperanza´s post.
Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Cost of living in Mexican cities
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"And I have seen these same people climb out of their BMWs, Audi's, Hummers etc in their Christian Louboutin shoes stand at the corner taco stand along with the rest of us chusma,having their tacos de tripa or buche."
And I have also seen two of the shoes and watch wearers waiting above a beach in Baja, after a package ....... was carried by two "fishermen" from a panga to a pickup.
The shoes and watch wearers drove the pickup away after three teen aged and well armed marines that had been on guard duty left. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just because a Mexican drives a BMW and wears a good watch and nice clothes means he's a narco.
My brother-in-law,a Mexican, exhibits all those outward signs of success. He is a cardiac surgeon, having graduated from universities in Guadalajara and Mexico City,and having had extensive post-graduate work at the Cleveland Clinic.
Another friend (also very prosperous) has a masters degree from Columbia University in NYC,started and owns his own business in financial consulting; his daughter has just become the first Mexican woman to have been accepted at ENA in Paris,France.
We have Mexican friends and relatives who are architects, attorneys,dentists, gynecologists, pediatricians, and opthamologists. they all live very well but don't fit your description.
Your comments are obviously intended to illustrate how clever you think you are,but they are far from accurate or appropriate.
Stereotyping Mexican people-any people for that matter- is rude,particularly if you live in Mexico.
(This post was edited by lostinmex on Feb 4, 2010, 6:04 PM)
Manuel- Just because a Mexican drives a BMW and wears a good watch and nice clothes means he's a narco.
Where did I say they were narcos? Learn to read. I made the point that the same people that can afford and enjoy expensive tastes also can be found at a humble taco stand with everyone else. How the hell you can say I called them narcos is ridiculous.
I happen to have Mexican citizenship. I have 3 grown children that were all born in Guadalajara. One graduated from ITESM and is a practicing attorney, one has a business degree from Monterrey Tec and the youngest is nearly done with his civil engineering degree. Don't lecture me on stereotyping Mexicans.
,
(This post was edited by Manuel Dexterity on Feb 4, 2010, 9:04 PM)
Manuel- Just because a Mexican drives a BMW and wears a good watch and nice clothes means he's a narco.
Where did I say they were narcos? Learn to read. I made the point that the same people that can afford and enjoy expensive tastes also can be found at a humble taco stand with everyone else. How the hell you can say I called them narcos is ridiculous.
I happen to have Mexican citizenship. I have 3 grown children that were all born in Guadalajara. One graduated from ITESM and is a practicing attorney, one has a business degree from Monterrey Tec and the youngest is nearly done with his civil engineering degree. Don't lecture me on stereotyping Mexicans.
Thank you, Manuel:
When I saw this post by Lostinmex last night I was blown away by his/her having accused you of stereotyping certain Mexicans as narcos and started to question that assertion since I had seen no such comment by you and, knowing your history of postings hereabouts found it hard to believe you would even think such a thing. Thanks for setting the record straight.
I hate to see what has been a fun and thought provoking thread torpedoed so thoughtlessly.
I've just reviewed the most recent posts, and I'd say the pot was primarily agitated by our favorite non-Mexican, non local resident Canadian farmer who hasn't been here in awhile, but loves to stir. So, no problem. Pass the coffee and pastry. Let's also remember that we don't know any more about each other than we tell on here. Sometimes the information is surprising!
Unless you're a total recluse in a gringo ghetto where the only Mexicans you see are your gardener and maid, you will have noticed that Mexico is not a classless society. The layers of prosperity (or lack of it) range from the near destitute folks in the campos to the uber-rich. Same as in the U.S. Somebody in Mexico's budget includes $600 (US) shoes and $1000 purses, just like NOB. Part of their "cost of living". lol.
The whole subject of "cost of living" has its comic side. Whose cost of living? The wealthy folks with the BMW's and the personal guards? The local shopkeeper? Your doctor? The foreigner who buys American Campbells soup for double the cost of Mexican Campbell's in the boutique supermarket? The foreigner on a tight budget who is in the fresh tortilla buying line, doesn't do the charity balls and whose recreation is a walk by the lake with his rescue dog? Whose "cost of living" are we going on about, anyway? The field is vast, and not easily sorted.
But many do happen to confuse the two. Probably the types looking for those nonexistant medals or prizes you mentioned earlier.
I suppose adjusting to life here may mean something like by now you have settled for buying a Mexican brand of peanut butter instead of seeking out your Super CrunchyJif. If by assimilate it is meant that the foreigner in question has become indistinguishable from the natives then that is neither likely or probable, if even possible, given that many, or most, are likely older retirees that are trying to attain some degree of assimilation.
It is similar to fluency in the language. Some people might have a big vocabulary but speak poorly in Spanish yet consider themselves fluent. Some people think they know so much about Mexico, have Mexican friends, are invited to social functions and even by golly acquire a taste for tortillas and own a pair of huaraches but are far from assimilating into the culture.
If you mean there are varying levels of fluency, I agree. It is doubtful a middle-aged gringo (when he arrived here) will eventually speak like a native someday. I am fluent at a very basic level, i.e., I can carry on a simple conversation or at least make myself understood to most anyone, not that I can always understand everything they are saying. If I say very little then at times my accent is not readily noted until I speak more.
There is a learning curve. I know so much more now than when I first arrived nearly five years ago. My learning is ongoing as I continue to improve my language skills. My ¨gringo-ness¨ seems to be dissapating as my attitude has changed in this time as well.
I have met english-speaking visitors who are Mexican by ancestory at least that have mistaken me for Mexican, something they have related to me later when we actually engaged in conversation. So I have achieved some level of transparency here if that is what assimilation is about. So I have achieved some level of assimilation, if that is how it is defined, a gray-scale and not a black and white distinction. But my transparency is, well, transparent. I would say assimilation is measured by degree.
I think I would have no qualms about living in Tepic or Tlaxcala. There are members on this forum that claim those as their favorite cities. On my small pension a lower cost of living means something. At this point I´m sure I could move in and get by just fine in a new city if I were seeking such. And a diet consisting primarily of beans and tortillas suits me well, as long as there is plenty of chili to spice it up.
(This post was edited by Peter on Feb 5, 2010, 8:54 AM)
Arbon....did anyone say "things' were better.........anywhere? The whole dang world seems to be falling apart in slow motion. I'm sure they will get under better control if under a dictatorship........but that's another story.
"My brother-in-law, a Mexican, exhibits all those outward signs of success. He is a cardiac surgeon, having graduated from universities in Guadalajara and Mexico City,and having had extensive post-graduate work at the Cleveland Clinic. Another friend (also very prosperous) has a masters degree from Columbia University in NYC,started and owns his own business in financial consulting; his daughter has just become the first Mexican woman to have been accepted at ENA in Paris,France. We have Mexican friends and relatives who are architects, attorneys, dentists, gynecologists, pediatricians, and opthamologists. they all live very well but don't fit your description."
For esperanza, I guess my assumption about lostinmex's friends, "wealthy" wasn't so far off the mark as some might have thought.
lostinmex, But you still didn't answer my question about being invited to (or going to) their parties that start at 11PM and continue well into the madrugada. If not, why not?
For esperanza, I guess my assumption about lostinmex's friends, "wealthy" wasn't so far off the mark as some might have thought.
Huh? I've only posted once on this thread, and not in response to anything you have written here. Why would you think I made an assumption about you? Help!
Reminds me of a cartoon I saw once that showed a lady dead on the floor dressed to the 9's in a New Mexican style dress, boots, conchos, turquoise, etc, surrounded with all the icons like a howling coyote, dreamcatchers, pottery. The caption said "Death by Santa Fe Style"...
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