MexConnect.com Forums: Areas: Central Highlands: Even the criminals won't file denuncias: Page 2

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Oscar2

Feb 2, 2010, 2:52 PM

Post #26 of 65 (5037 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Dead men have no fear, and they neither obey nor revolt.

Reefhound,

Now, that really sounds scarrrry! But I think you can do better than that...Huh!

Oscar2

Feb 2, 2010, 3:02 PM

Post #27 of 65 (5028 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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It sounds like a few "cold ones" were already had.

Fear mongering is so, so easy. Just latch on to the news and ride its tails and the desired listeners seeked will heed your warnings, again, again and again. Yes, it just doesn’t stop, does it..

esperanza

Feb 2, 2010, 3:46 PM

Post #28 of 65 (5023 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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In Reply To

Why is it that some here seek out stories of atrocities committed by the narco gangs and others choose not to dwell on the increasingly dire security situation in Mexico? I think that a lot of it has to do with our our individual outlooks on life and even our personalities. I find myself being more concerned about the increase in crime in the country in general and in certain areas in particular, but my daily routine continues along a peaceful path here in the ombligo de México...

In Morelia and the rest of Michoacán, there's no need to seek out anything. It's right in our faces all the time. It's not about fear-mongering. It's about reality. This is the news here, because it's life's reality here. My daily routine also has a peaceful path, but life's reality gives me occasional pause.

For example, I was up-close-and-personal with the governor and his wife today. Did it give me pause to know that he could easily be a target, and that there I was hugging his wife? You betcha. Did it stop me? Nope.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

La Isla

Feb 2, 2010, 4:04 PM

Post #29 of 65 (5016 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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When I wrote about those who seek out atrocity stories, I wasn't thinking of my friends in places like Morelia, where the (lack of) security situation is right in your face. I was thinking more of those who post stories of the latest atrocities who don't necessarily live in places like your hometown or Ciudad Juárez but who feel the need to let the rest of us know how scary life in Mexico is becoming.

If I lived in Morelia, I would hope that I would approach life just the way you do, Esperanza, though I doubt I'd be hobnobbing with the governor and his señora!

Oscar2

Feb 2, 2010, 5:23 PM

Post #30 of 65 (5006 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I find myself being more concerned about the increase in crime in the country in general and in certain areas in particular, but my daily routine continues along a peaceful path here in the ombligo de México...

Peaceful path, I really like that and personally I enjoy the presences of peace especially when we are surrounded by a human condition which harbors pain, destruction and fear. Some call it reality. But then again, what is reality to some can be mere folly and/or conditioning one adopts and lives within.… Its so easy to fall in lockstep with that which is considered popular or what some like to call the norm or even “their reality.” Some eventually call that which is fed to us intravenously from birth and those before them, reality.

Is there perhaps a different reality or is there many realities, and that in itself, “is reality.” Again, I too enjoy the path of peace and whatever I can do through “self awareness” to maintain its presence. No matter what anyone says, people believe what they want, and are going to believe as “their truth.” Whatever it is, it is, and opinions which are given life from it, is exactly that, yes, just another opinion on the horizon where peace is perhaps closer then we know, and in ways that have always been there but some realities are very good at hiding it.

(This post was edited by Oscar2 on Feb 2, 2010, 5:24 PM)

La Isla

Feb 2, 2010, 5:44 PM

Post #31 of 65 (4991 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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I am not by nature a "peaceful" person, but as I get older, I find that the search for inner peace is more and more essential to my well-being, both physical and spiritual. Finding a peaceful path to follow is possible even while living in turbulent Mexico City and in these turbulent times. Thanks for your thoughtful response to my post, Oscar2.

arbon

Feb 2, 2010, 5:55 PM

Post #32 of 65 (4980 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

Perhaps you do not know what happens in far off places, when the supply of imported drugs become scarce.
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La Isla

Feb 2, 2010, 6:16 PM

Post #33 of 65 (4974 views)

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Re: [arbon] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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What does this have to do with my "peaceful" comment?

Peter

Feb 3, 2010, 6:20 AM

Post #34 of 65 (4925 views)

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Re: [arbon] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Perhaps you do not know what happens in far off places, when the supply of imported drugs become scarce.
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I don´t. The people then become happy and productive, family violence comes to a halt, and everyone lives happily ever after? That´s the goal of the War on Drugs, right?

Peter

Feb 3, 2010, 6:33 AM

Post #35 of 65 (4924 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Is there perhaps a different reality or is there many realities, and that in itself, “is reality.”
************

Perhaps so, Oscar. I watch the morning news and glance at an occasional newspaper so am aware of what is going on here, I just have not seen any of it. The former Tijuana jailor is bound to see things with a different perspective than mine. Esperanza lives on the other side of Acueducto from me. It seems her neighborhood is more violent than mine. I live with the poor folk whose family´s budget doesn´t include bullets.

wearechange

Feb 4, 2010, 5:47 PM

Post #36 of 65 (4871 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Ironically many people feel safer in towns "administrated" by La Familia. In the States the excuse for creating a police state is Al Qaeda and in Mexico we have the cartels.

wearechange.org
infowars.com

Oscar2

Feb 5, 2010, 12:08 PM

Post #37 of 65 (4822 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Excuse the delay in responding but I had to think about this one in many ways. As one of some of us regulars who hang around MC’s lobbies and corridors, I find your post’s of Morelia, not only refreshing but one whose stalwart approach to life is reassuring. For the most part, I don’t experience you as one who routinely gives homage to those, idiots, A-holes and more who are in the mayhem business and depend on their atrocities to be disseminated not just by the media but more important, word of mouth by obsequious coat tale enthusiast.

I see you mentioned Esperanza’s mindset, and yes, I too have noticed her Morelia public disposition for quite some time now, and frankly it’s a bit disturbing when it’s frothed with more like despair, and dissatisfaction, without even a hint of the upside. I sense her posts are almost void or lacking the bolstering of support her new found home town direly needs at this time the media without conscience blemishes the city even more. Your welcome to chime-in Esperanza, and the reasons I sense and say these things is because I know from your past living in Guad, you were an admirable stalwart supporter, ambassador of good will one could count on here on MC, regardless of ongoing complaints of killer traffic and more.

We are all aware of the atrocities, murders and more occurring not just in Michoacán, but the open mouthed blood spurting drenching my city, and cities all over this planet have been experiencing for some time now. It is unsettling to say the least, but I still refuse to propagate the fears ill intended foes depend on. We can unfortunately depend and have the media to thank for playing right into their game plan as they intend.

The days of good will ambassadorship voiced by SP, have dwindled to a point where even if your newly adopted home town is bad mouthed by an MC member, your response has been none. I don’t get it. I personally like the feel of my stay in El Centro Historico. I believe you, Peter, like the place you are in Morelia. There isn’t too many MC’ers living there that I know of over the years, so yes, input is indeed sparse and “anything” positive is what is needed “right now,” not the opposite. There are hundreds of thousands of Michoacán residents whose lives go on as normal and MC’ers must also take them into consideration when wrestling with personal emotion and voicing opinions. I know, for some this maybe a tough nut, but I believe someone once said, when things get tough, the tough go shopping… It’s kind of incongruous but I think we get the idea.

Excuse the length of this post but if you will, let’s just look at it as more hallway conversation in the midst of MC corridors.

(This post was edited by Oscar2 on Feb 5, 2010, 12:27 PM)

arbon

Feb 5, 2010, 1:12 PM

Post #38 of 65 (4809 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

Oscar, are you saying that you would file a denuncia, if you were in the same situation?
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Peter

Feb 7, 2010, 9:24 AM

Post #39 of 65 (4755 views)

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In the next couple of weeks I am moving to a new place around the corner from where you stayed in Morelia, the Galeria Suites as I recall. Morelia escaped major damage from this recent storm with no more than the usual light flooding in the low areas. Even those places near the river that sometimes got the overflow were spared by improvements to the drainage systems, though I´m sure in a city this size there were many that did endure some discomforts or worse. The rain here was not overly heavy but steady day and night for a few days. However, if Noah´s Ark had been built like my rented house there would be no human race remaining.

I really like my house here at the mouth of that long tree-lined walkway parallel to the acueducto that leads up to the Santuario de Guadalupe you described so elequently. It is so convenient being just at the edge of the Centro Historico but now I´m going to be living right in the middle of it with all the daytime heavy traffic and near-impossible parking situation. You now know this area fairly well from your recent stay and know I´m trading one convenience for many others. There is so much to see and do here with new events scheduled all the time I feel fortunate to be right in the middle of it all and get to experience it with the convenience usually reserved for visitors and tourists.

Some may view this move with some reservation given all the bad press we´ve had in recent times but I am really looking forward to it. If I do, however, begin to see the news unfolding before my eyes here I will post about it as honestly as possible. But for now your colorful and enthusiastic descriptions of Morelia will suffice as that is the emotion I still feel after nearly five years living here as I walk these downtown streets and marvel at the history it all tells. Morelia boasts some of western civilization´s firsts on these continents in the New World and buildings that date back to the sixteenth century. It has seen turbulent times and withstood, and I believe it will continue to thrive and offer pleasure to many in the time to come.

esperanza

Feb 7, 2010, 10:28 AM

Post #40 of 65 (4743 views)

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Re: [Oscar2] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Oscar, posting facts about life--wherever that life is lived--is not "badmouthing" one's location. It's simply reporting facts. I have not personally witnessed any of the killings or violence here in Morelia, but whether you like reading about those facts or not, they exist.

You, on the other hand, adjure that my posts are "frothed with more like despair, and dissatisfaction", and are "almost void or lacking the bolstering of support her new found home town direly needs".

Boosterism is the act of "boosting," or promoting, one's town, city, or organization, with the goal of improving public perception of it. Boosterism in today's Morelia (or even in Michoacán as a whole) would be promoting a lie, a lie in which I refuse to participate. Foreign tourists or residents, even foreigners living here like Peter, might never see or be subjected to violence, but that does not mean that violence is not all around them. The media are not "playing right into their game plan as they intend". The media report the news (body counts, facts of killings, and other related statistics), except in their editorial columns of opinion. It would be a gross neglect of duty to gloss over and hide the darker side of the reality here.

Yes, Morelia is a beautiful, graceful, and lively city with wonderful cultural pleasures, advantages and benefits. Yes, I love living here and have written about it frequently, both here and, of course, every Saturday on Mexico Cooks!. I've lived in Mexico for half my life and am honored to be a citizen of this country; how could anyone question whether I love it here? This is my home. Precisely because I love my home, I refuse to ignore the elephant in Mexico's living room. That elephant has been figuratively sitting on the couch in Mexico since the end of 2006, when Pres. Calderón inaugurated his misguided war on drugs. NOT to call attention to it is a tremendous disservice to this country. NOT to call attention to it is to lead astray anyone considering moving to Morelia or any of the other Mexican cities and states where narco-violencia is real and frequent. Reality does not always look like rosy cantera buildings hung with hot-pink bugambilia; reality sometimes looks like a severed human head stuffed into a styrofoam cooler. Reality does not always look like smiling natives dressed in ropa típica; reality sometimes looks like an innocent three-year-old killed by grenade shrapnel.

Don't blame the messenger, Oscar. Tough love is just that: tough, and love.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Reefhound

Feb 7, 2010, 11:13 AM

Post #41 of 65 (4733 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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Here's an interesting article in the paper today.

Amid drug war, Mexico less deadly than decade ago

Decapitated bodies dumped on the streets, drug-war shootings and regular attacks on police have obscured a significant fact: A falling homicide rate means people in Mexico are less likely to die violently now than they were more than a decade ago.

I think it would be unfair to blame the perception and image of violence on media sensationalism, though. The media are whores - they just give the people what they want. I think the people want it because, in general, how we die is important.

We know on an intellectual level that it doesn't matter, that we are no less dead because we die one way than if we die another, dead is dead. But we have psychologically prepared ourselves to accept death by heart attack or car accident or such while we abhor the idea of being murdered. We also abhor death where our bodies are not left intact - eaten by a shark, cut in pieces or beheaded, or never found. But if we must die, we want it to be sudden and painless. So it's not just the raw numbers of people being killed by the narco gangs that affect us so dramatically, it's the way many of the bodies have been tortured, faces sewn onto soccer balls, heads found in coolers, etc.

Brian

Feb 7, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #42 of 65 (4724 views)

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That article is interesting on several levels. It also can be seen in the context of the Secretary of Tourism's current strategy to enlist expats and famous people who have investments in Mexico to tout it's advantages. Here is what I wrote a few days ago on a different message board:

"Those who know me are aware that about 3 1/2 years ago, my wife and I had to return to live in the United States because of medical reasons. Since that time much has changed throughout the Republic of Mexico and San Miguel as well. Unfortunately, many negative events, and the reporting about such, has caused tourist revenue to plummet contributing the economic crisis. I now live in an area of Austin where many of my neighbors are academics and other professionals. The following article reminded me of a talk I had with my next door neighbor a couple of months ago. He began the conversation by referring to our ten year residency in Mexico and saying that his company was bidding for a contract with the Mexican department of tourism to mount a campaign to combat the negative publicity. He asked me if I had any ideas. I surprised him when I asked if he were dealing directly with Elizondo. He said yes and I let him know something about the tactics which had been tried in earlier years to bring more tourists to Baja California (specifically Tijuana/Rosarito) before that area became a complete desmadre. I told him I was sorry but that I didn't think the tourists would return until the negative publicity stopped and that could only happen in one of two ways. Either the Mexican press would have to stop reporting about the crime wave or the Mexican people would have to force their government to stifle the criminal activities from occurring in the first place. In the case of Rosarito, both Elizondo and Mayor Torres tried to launch a series of 'fluff articles" about the benefits of visiting the area. It hasn't worked and now, there is anecdotal evidence , that Baja officials have been reducing access to the press as well. Cover-ups and gilding the lily rarely succeed. I don't know why they keep trying.

I haven't asked my neighbor, and he hasn't volunteered, whether he got the contract or not. I sure hope he wasn't responsible for Elizondo's latest strategy. He wants the "celebrity-types" in San Miguel to publicize what a wonderful place it is and to encourage Americans and other foreigners to come on down. That is well and good. But will he and the Mexican government, though, be as willing to accept input, and yes, criticism about the lack of transparency in matters of public safety? The meeting next week with Chief Avila may provide a clue."

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/...amp;article=025n3eco

Brian

Peter

Feb 8, 2010, 7:09 AM

Post #43 of 65 (4678 views)

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I think it is a given that Mexico may not be the safest country to visit. Most of us know that from the start but decide to come here anyway. In many respects Mexico offers its people more personal liberty than in the US, but for that freedom one must accept the chaos that accompanies it. It is a trade-off for the individual to weigh its merits.

Reality does not always look like rosy cantera buildings hung with hot-pink bugambilia; reality sometimes looks like a severed human head stuffed into a styrofoam cooler.

I´ll stick my neck out and offer without proven statistics that it is about a million times more likely one would experience the pink cantera rather than the severed head. However, if severed heads and faces sewn onto soccer balls were open as public exhibits I believe those attractions would find their own niche for tourism. I would not suggest Morelia do such, but it could give quite an economic boost to some small pueblo that has fallen on hard times. If that is a tad too gory then I might suggest a parade of rateros around the town´s glorietta could make for a heart-warming attraction.

(This post was edited by Peter on Feb 8, 2010, 7:10 AM)

arbon

Feb 8, 2010, 7:48 AM

Post #44 of 65 (4668 views)

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It seems the post I was responding to has been removed. But here is my reply.

What I detest most is when regurgitation of death and mayhem is thrown out irresponsibly making a new onlooker feel that to get from the border to his/her destination, he/she must maneuver through cataclysmic warfare trenches of to get there…….unreal..
*********

I had a similar ¨unreal¨ feeling when I read the account of one forum member´s recent annual trek south when he decided to use the new Arco Norte instead of his usual coast route in order to avoid the perils of traversing the backroads of Michoacán. I thought it may have been he was just curious about how that new route felt to drive or tired of the tedium of his usual route and didn´t mind following the trend to sensationalize a bit to justify doing something different.

It could be that some of our forum members and seasoned ex-pats really are concerned and justifiably taking extreme precautions in these turbulent times. And it has occurred to me it is my relative naivete of having been here less than half a decade that I am taking unnecessary risks by venturing out my front door. Worse, that I continue throwing caution to the wind and continue taking my monthly excursions to Pátzcuaro and points beyond.

I recently made a trip out to the coast, and now in retrospect see the danger I could have faced if things had turned out differently. I realize how close I came to being ambushed and shudder now to reflect back on what could have occurred if I had been less lucky. I was travelling with a friend out on the coast highway of Michoacán several miles north of Playa Azul when I slowed for a tope as I was approaching a small coastal pueblo. All of a sudden a rope was pulled up blocking my escape, and was then approached by two youths who wanted my money. I could see other people along side of the road watching all this and it appeared they were in on it also, and at that time I realized there were too many of them for us to overpower if it came to that.

Thinking quickly, I reached into my pocket and extracted 10 pesos and quickly surrendered it to these two youths who were at this time at the window of my vehicle. I handed over my change, seeing the people gathered at the side of the road and what appeared to be ribbons and balloons, but knowing what I know now, ever the wiser, could have been disembodied heads held together by a bloody rope, but I care not reflect back on this incident. Perhaps by sheer luck the two ten-year-old girls smiled at me and said ¨gracias¨ then lowered the rope and let me be on my way. It could have been a lot worse.

(This post was edited by Peter on Feb 8, 2010, 3:51 PM)

tashby

Feb 8, 2010, 4:05 PM

Post #50 of 65 (4575 views)

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Re: [Peter] Even the criminals won't file denuncias

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It's all fun and games until it's your head on that balloon, eh?

(Oh wait. I'm channeling someone....)

It's a dangerous life, it's a dangerous country, it's a dangerous world. Eyes open, head on, pick your tolerance level. And good luck everyone.

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