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Linda in Morelia

Nov 30, 2009, 3:35 PM

Post #1 of 9 (11219 views)

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Dual Pane wood windows

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My husband and I are looking for a company (anywhere in Mexico) who can construct custom dual pane windows with entirely wood frames -- not the windows made with a wood interior and a vinyl exterior that looks like wood. We have a Spanish colonial home in the historical center of Morelia and we would like to keep the original look of the windows. Plus, I don't think the local government would permit us to use anything but wood. We want the dual pane feature to cut down on street noise.

Some local architects have suggested that we construct windows with two panes of glass, but unless dual pane windows are sealed correctly, you can get moisture inside the two panes, so we are reluctant to go that route.

Does anyone have any suggestions? We have tried to find companies in Mexico who can do this, but so far all we have found are companies who use aluminum or PCP (I think).

Thanks in advance for your help.

arbon

Nov 30, 2009, 5:06 PM

Post #2 of 9 (11197 views)

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Re: [Linda in Morelia] Dual Pane wood windows

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"Some local architects have suggested that we construct windows with two panes of glass, but unless dual pane windows are sealed correctly, you can get moisture inside the two panes, so we are reluctant to go that route."

It wont cost you very much to prove what has been done in the past.

If you have a self contained room with a window.

The inner glass pain is sealed with butyl tape or butyl caulk to stop the house moisture entering the gap.

The gap or space between the pains can be up to 3/4 of an inch, (any more and you can get air circulation) and the gap is purposely vented to the outside, to allow any moisture to escape.

If it works to your satisfaction in the one room, then do the rest. (it worked for us)
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arbon

Nov 30, 2009, 6:55 PM

Post #3 of 9 (11170 views)

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Re: [Linda in Morelia] Dual Pane wood windows

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"Some local architects have suggested that we construct windows with two panes of glass, but unless dual pane windows are sealed correctly, you can get moisture inside the two panes, so we are reluctant to go that route."

What I am trying to point out rather clumsily is that, moisture between the two pains will not be trapped if the space is vented. (to the out side at the bottom) .....and the "Air Space" is still "Fit for purpose".
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cristalhombre

Nov 30, 2009, 8:53 PM

Post #4 of 9 (11153 views)

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Re: [Linda in Morelia] Dual Pane wood windows

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Howdy Linda

I've been in the glass fabrication/distribution biz for 3 decades (way too long).....here are some of my thoughts on this inquiry.

I am not aware of any IG (insulated glass) fabricator in MX. You might find a "progressive" glazier in Morelia that has a device known as a super-spacer sealing gun (but I doubt if that would be available). Your architect or builder should know if IG units can be obtained in MX. Maybe there's an IG fab in DF?? Ask around or just Google.......

If the sizes were small, you mentioned colonial style, which is generally 8" x 10" (or smaller) - perhaps you could bring these in from the states. IG can be boxed, crated, shipped, it's done all the time - probably not cheap. If you did buy tempered IG small lites in the States you could pack those in a suitcase with some foam spacers, and toss in the belly of an aircraft. Don't worry about the tempered glass breaking as long as you protect the edges of the glass (the tempering changes the molecular structure to handle 30X the impact strength of normal glass) however the immediate edge is vulnerable. Weight is approx 5lbs SF. I play around with fusible art glass (baked in a kiln) and have brought bundles to MX this way, inside a suitcase. Not a problem.

If sound mitigation is your goal, several options to consider. Using different thickness of substrates - example one piece of glass is 1/8" and the other is 3/16", this very minor change will improve the STC 'sound transmission class'. The different thickness will disrupt the sound wave (sound transmission). Might sound odd - but it really works!....and costs almost nothing. The best option for the glass type addressing sound is, laminated glass (aka safety glass), like the windshield of your car. Lami glass consists of two sheets of glass compressed together under heat and pressure and the inter-layer .030 PIB acts to interrupt the sound wave. It is also beneficial for impact resistance (break-ins) assuming the frame it is installed in is secure. The reason lami is used in ONLY the windshield of a vehicle is to contain occupants from launching. Lami glass is the code requirement for ALL glazing, residential and commercial in hurricane zones in the SE. This eliminates "flying" glass shards when all hell breaks loose. I have purchased lami glass in Ajijic - should be available in Morelia too.

Don't know if you are familiar with the methods used by Andersen Wood windows, 30 - 40 years ago...... this was at the infancy of 'sealed' IG units. These windows would have one fixed piece of glass glazed in the wood frame, and the other panel was removable (called a sull sash) for cleaning - clips in and out - easy to remove. Later as the technology developed, the two pieces were sealed together in an IG unit. You could try this, and a skilled carpenter could figure this out.

Plastic infill, in lieu of glass, would provide a better STC, but then plastic scratches and the surface is an attractant for dust as it's surface generally has a static charge - "dirt magnet". But if this is a window behind a transparent drape and you just want ambient light - I would use plastic and every couple of months wipe it down with mild soap and water.

Moisture inside an unsealed "home-made" dual pane unit is a result of humidity and temperatures. BIG problem in the cold environs of the Midwest (outside is below 0ºF and inside is 68ºF and 35% humidity level) where condensation is intense + creates mold etc. In Morelia you might get some "minor" condensation (sweating) in the rainy season - my guess is the winter months would not be an issue for moisture - at all. Option to remove the sull sash (second layer of glass) in the rainy season, if you did not want to keep it clean.

Hope this helps and good luck.

"NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST...."

cristalhombre

Nov 30, 2009, 9:10 PM

Post #5 of 9 (11144 views)

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Re: [Linda in Morelia] Dual Pane wood windows

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Info from Google for insulated glass.

Fabricator in Toluca. Company is Alubau.

Mr. Georg Lackner Address: Calle 4# 110-B, Col. Ejido Buenavista Toluca,Edo. De Mexico,Mexico 50010 Phone Number: 52-722-3188806

"NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST...."

Linda in Morelia

Dec 1, 2009, 6:52 AM

Post #6 of 9 (11101 views)

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Re: [cristalhombre] Dual Pane wood windows

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Thanks to Arbon and Cristalhombre for your responses. We will ponder the options.

Moisheh

Dec 1, 2009, 8:00 AM

Post #7 of 9 (11094 views)

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Re: [Linda in Morelia] Dual Pane wood windows

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There are a lot of glass companies in Mexico making dual pane windows. Most of these are small factories who fabricate vinyl windows. They buy a "kit" which includes the profiles, spacer bars, tables with jigs, special mitersaw and plasic welder. Obviously you do not want vinyl wqindoes. BUT these small factories also have the equipment o make a sealed unit. They then insert the sealed unit into the vinyl frames. You could order the sealed units and any good carprenty shop could make the window frames to accept these sealed units. If done properly your windows would appear authentic.

Moisheh

cristalhombre

Dec 1, 2009, 8:42 AM

Post #8 of 9 (11079 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Dual Pane wood windows

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Moisheh

Good to know you can purchase IG products in MX.

I have found one company in GDL with a small tempering furnace (vertical line), but had not come across an insulated glass option.

Here in the states, most fabricators like myself, now offer a "lifetime warranty" for seal failure (prevents the fogging and condensation) that Linda was concerned with. The advanced sealing technology, known as a dual-sealed unit, makes failure almost none existent. This is ONLY done with a somewhat sophisticated European made machinery (a high volume operation can have an investment of more than $1.5 MIL in just one IG line) and high quality sealant materials "$$$$" from companies like DOW Chemical and GE.

A Mexican glass shop made unit (making assumptions here, of the many glass shops I have visited in Jalisco, somewhat primative by US standards) would likely have a butyl seal and maybe get a 5 - 10 year life (those were the expectations here in the past).

Today, with the "almost exclusive" use of coated glass (low-e) for commercial and residential construction, special sealants are required. This glass is designed to reflect and absorb the radiant light spectrum "heat gain". Surface temps on a tinted substrates can reach 180º - 200ºF and that intense heat is transferred to the edge seal. A butyl seal could never withstand this heat/cool cycle - day after day.

However on an IG using clear over clear glass (no coatings and not too large) in Linda's small size colonial windows..........could last forever.

"NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST...."

Moisheh

Dec 1, 2009, 9:01 AM

Post #9 of 9 (11076 views)

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Re: [cristalhombre] Dual Pane wood windows

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cristalhombre:

You are a glass expert and I am a layman but I was surprised at the simplicity of these vinyl window shops. The technology is German or Canadian. I think Royal vinyl supplies these "kits". The spacer bar is nothing high tech. As for warranties: Where in Mexico does anyone offer a lifetime warranty??? ( tongue in cheek) I did visit one of these shops in Hermosillo and it was "alright". Sure beats the horrible Mexican aluminum windows that are akin to taping a plastic bag across an opening. Ours leak dust and cold wind. When we built a small addition I brought vinyl windows from the USA. There are a lot of glass shops in Hermosillo that sell USA windows. Hoem Depot in Mexico also has some vinyl windows and can order custom sizes.

Moisheh