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Zorba

Nov 29, 2009, 10:36 AM

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Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Im curious what you think about this huge project. I say this because Puerto Chiapas (formerly Puerto Madero) has received a lot of investment and upgrade and is being promoted as an international port for both tourism and trade. This is one of the goals of the plan.

I'm a "Nay".



Jim in Cancun / Moderator

Nov 29, 2009, 2:27 PM

Post #2 of 23 (10990 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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I'm a "yah."

If you have done nothing for so long and gotten nothing, then doing something might get you something. Change is good. Sometimes just for its own sake and always for what it brings--experience of something new. Good or bad? It is an experiience to learn from--if we will. JMHO


Hound Dog

Nov 29, 2009, 6:36 PM

Post #3 of 23 (10964 views)

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Re: [Jim in Cancun] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Jim in Cancun informs us:

If you have done nothing for so long and gotten nothing, then doing something might get you something. Change is good. Sometimes just for its own sake

Such as turning the gorgeous Cancun pristine estuary and sound and crystal beach into a concrete monster catering to U.S. drunken adolescent American pukeheads disrespecting the culture which in turn disrespects them by encouraging them to overindulge in poisonous drink with which they humiliate themselves repeatedly. The foremost example in these parts of what is disgusting about undeserved wealth and corrupt politicians exploiting irreplacable natural resources to line their own pockets at the expense of natural habitats sacrificed for filthy lucre.

Change is good for its own sake? So is excrement.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Nov 29, 2009, 7:14 PM)


RickS


Nov 29, 2009, 7:09 PM

Post #4 of 23 (10956 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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I think this is Dawg just 'stiring the pot' as he is so prone to do... and taking no prisoners along the way.

...catering to U.S. trailer trash... give me a break!

While Cancun may not be to everyone's liking (I personally won't go there) and may have been overdeveloped with politicians and developers reaping some benefit, it serves a purpose and is enjoyed by many every day of the year. It's probably akin to Destin Fla. which you and I knew to be pristine in the '50s but, to us, is now not a place worthy of revisiting. But to hundreds of thousands it is 'heaven on earth' so who am I to say it 'was better'. It's just different now.


As far as PPP, I haven't heard anything about that for years. Is there some new push in the Chiapas or Veracruz area that causes you to bring it up?


Hound Dog

Nov 29, 2009, 7:27 PM

Post #5 of 23 (10953 views)

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Re: [RickS] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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OK, Rick. I took out the "trailer trash" comment which was gratuitous and, perhaps, offensive. I get a bit strung out when I see what unscrupulous developers and corrupt politicians along with their clientele did in Cancun and Destin. As far as the "Plan Puebla-Panama" is concerned; I did not bring it up and have no idea what it is but I´ll bet you the shirt off my back that it does not amount to a hill of beans and will never come to fruition. Lose no sleep over that.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Nov 29, 2009, 7:29 PM)


Zorba

Nov 29, 2009, 11:51 PM

Post #6 of 23 (10929 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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"As far as PPP, I haven't heard anything about that for years. Is there some new push in the Chiapas or Veracruz area that causes you to bring it up?"

Well, it came to mind because there was a recent thread about the "Arco Norte" highway that many feel will open up the South of Mexico to more exploration from the north. Apart from that, just the big changes I have seen in the Puerto Chiapas area and how the government is pushing the port as a major accomplishment for the future of tourism and business in the area. However, it may or may not be related to the PPP. Im curious if anybody else has noticed any developments going on in their area (push for more tourism in the area, new highways, airports, upgraded ports, railways, dams, bridges, privatizacion, displacement of peoples etc etc).

"As far as the "Plan Puebla-Panama" is concerned; I did not bring it up and have no idea what it is but I´ll bet you the shirt off my back that it does not amount to a hill of beans and will never come to fruition. Lose no sleep over that."


It's a large modernization plan that is supposed to connect all of Mesoamerica from Mexico down to Panama and the Caribbean. Apparently the name of it has been changed from "Plan-Puebla Panama" to "Mesoamerican Integration and Development Project" (some say due to bad press for the PPP). Those in favour claim it will be beneficial to the forgotten regions of Southern Mexico while others claim it is simply another attempt to rape and pillage natural and human resources for the benefit of multinationals (USA).


I found this link interesting:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=3953

This one shows that the Calderon government and others have not abandoned it:

http://www.presidencia.gob.mx/...ess/?contenido=36710

Development bank comments:

http://www.bcie.org/.../iniciativas/ppt.php

More leftist comments:

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/6410

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puebla-Panama_Plan













Hound Dog

Dec 1, 2009, 3:03 PM

Post #7 of 23 (10829 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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As one who was raised in the desperately poor region of the Southeastern United States that was brought out from terrible ignorance and poverty to some extent by the construction of the federally funded interstate highway system starting in the 1950s I will tell you this. The construction of modern highway transportation into southeastern Mexico will be a godsend to the poor there and will ignite an economic surge that will do more to end poverty and regional illiteracy than anything you can imagine. I find it ironic that leftists propagandizing against infrastructural improvements of this nature are aligned with right wing traditional death squads supporting fascist oriented ranchers in order to prevent the enlightenment and financial liberation of the poor who have traditionally been enslaved by poverty and ignorance. Belive me - as a southern white boy, I know from where they are coming.

It is not coincidental that the Zapatista movement is a product of Mexico City intellectuals who thrive on the poverty and ignorance of their supposed constituents.

I am sickened by this.

Build the highway and develop the port. If it doesn´t work out so what.


RickS


Dec 1, 2009, 7:35 PM

Post #8 of 23 (10799 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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I'm confused Dawg (don't go anywhere with that statement!).

I'm going to change just one part of your comments above (I'll highlight it) and maybe you will be able to see my confusion....

Dawg said, and I modified: "As one who was raised in the desperately poor region of the Southeastern United States that was brought out from terrible ignorance and poverty to some extent by the construction of the federally funded interstate highway system starting in the 1950s I will tell you this. The construction of modern highway transportation (substitute beach resorts) into southeastern Mexico(northeastern Yucatan) will be a godsend to the poor there and will ignite an economic surge that will do more to end poverty and regional illiteracy than anything you can imagine. I find it ironic that leftists propagandizing against infrastructural improvements of this nature are aligned with right wing traditional death squads supporting fascist oriented ranchers in order to prevent the enlightenment and financial liberation of the poor who have traditionally been enslaved by poverty and ignorance. Belive me - as a southern white boy, I know from where they are coming.

Build the highway (beach resort) and develop the port (village). If it doesn´t work out, so what.

¿Cuál es la diferencia?

(This post was edited by RickS on Dec 1, 2009, 7:38 PM)


Hound Dog

Dec 2, 2009, 9:11 AM

Post #9 of 23 (10774 views)

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Re: [RickS] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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The construction of modern highway transportation (substitute beach resorts) into southeastern Mexico(northeastern Yucatan) will be a godsend to the poor there and will ignite an economic surge that will do more to end poverty and regional illiteracy than anything you can imagine.

I´m not following you Rick. Not that I am unsympathetic to your seeming values but I fail to see how the development of transportation to the port of Puerto Madero (AKA Puerto Chiapas) in Chiapas will have any economic effect on Northeastern Yucatan which is not in any way to be considered part of Southeastern Mexico but more correctly Mid-Eastern Mexico and is nearly 2,000 kilometers distant from this insignificant Pacific port just up fom the border with Guatemala. This seems to me to be much ado about nothing.

Anyone who is familiar with Chiapas knows that one of its primary curses is the traditional lack of highway access from the rest of Mexico and the disdain with which that remote region is held by Mexicans who consider the state to be a useless, poverty stricken indigenous outcropping of Guatemala. If you know this region then you also know that the primary access route from Veracruz State that is the cuota from Minatitlan, Veracruz to Tuxtla Gutiererrez, Chiapas is a national disgrace that came apart before it was even finished.

Spare me the crap abut beach resorts. Talk to me about stunning mountain vistas at elevations most reading this forum find untenable and we can have a discussion.

And, by the way; Chiapas is not a place with beautiful beaches but has a huge, uninviting and undeveloped coastal region of dismal black sand and turbid Pacific coastal waters interspersed with poverty stricken and impossibly hot and humid villages existing in utmost poverty. Ain´t no Costa Maya there, brother. In fact, the Pacific coast of Chiapas is so uninviting to drunken American misfits seeking booze and sex that there is no coastal highway and not even one beach resort attractive to NOB boozers between the Oaxaca State line and Guatemala. Now, one might find respite there if one is seeking solitude in wilderness but this ain´t no future Cancun. Get serious.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Dec 2, 2009, 9:59 AM)


Zorba

Dec 2, 2009, 11:47 AM

Post #10 of 23 (10749 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Personally, I have never believed that infrastructure is intended for the benefit of the common man. He or she may benefit from it, but it is not the government's primary concern. Highways are only built when it is in the best interest of the government and big business. It is all about moving goods and making money.

This is part of the argument against Plan Puebla-Panama. The claim is that the highways, ports etc. are only being developed in order for the rich resources of the region to be shipped out of country to the benefit of foreign multinationals. Furthermore, leftists claim that it will displace the rural poor (multinationals will buy up agricultural land, land will be confiscated for dams and highways, etc.) Rural folk, now landless, have no other option than to work for low wages in the city, at factories. In the end multinationals get cheap resources and cheap labour. The poor become slaves to big business.

I would love to see nice highways that further connect Chiapas to the rest of Mexico. I would be able to get around to other parts of the country more quickly. However, I wonder what will be lost because of it. I would not like to see it done with the displacement and unfair treatment of the indigenous. Furthermore, I get uncomfortable when private companies monopolize water, electricity, communications etc.

But again, I am an odd egg. I wish we could all go back the simple life. Bartering, subsistence farming and gun toting.


(This post was edited by Zorba on Dec 2, 2009, 11:56 AM)


Hound Dog

Dec 3, 2009, 4:20 PM

Post #11 of 23 (10695 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Personally, I have never believed that infrastructure is intended for the benefit of the common man. He or she may benefit from it, but it is not the government's primary concern. Highways are only built when it is in the best interest of the government and big business. It is all about moving goods and making money.

This is part of the argument against Plan Puebla-Panama. The claim is that the highways, ports etc. are only being developed in order for the rich resources of the region to be shipped out of country to the benefit of foreign multinationals. Furthermore, leftists claim that it will displace the rural poor (multinationals will buy up agricultural land, land will be confiscated for dams and highways, etc.) Rural folk, now landless, have no other option than to work for low wages in the city, at factories. In the end multinationals get cheap resources and cheap labour. The poor become slaves to big business.

I would love to see nice highways that further connect Chiapas to the rest of Mexico. I would be able to get around to other parts of the country more quickly. However, I wonder what will be lost because of it. I would not like to see it done with the displacement and unfair treatment of the indigenous. Furthermore, I get uncomfortable when private companies monopolize water, electricity, communications etc.

But again, I am an odd egg. I wish we could all go back the simple life. Bartering, subsistence farming and gun toting.


Personally, I have never believed that infrastructure is intended for the benefit of the common man. He or she may benefit from it, but it is not the government's primary concern. Highways are only built when it is in the best interest of the government and big business. It is all about moving goods and making money.

This is part of the argument against Plan Puebla-Panama. The claim is that the highways, ports etc. are only being developed in order for the rich resources of the region to be shipped out of country to the benefit of foreign multinationals. Furthermore, leftists claim that it will displace the rural poor (multinationals will buy up agricultural land, land will be confiscated for dams and highways, etc.) Rural folk, now landless, have no other option than to work for low wages in the city, at factories. In the end multinationals get cheap resources and cheap labour. The poor become slaves to big business.

I would love to see nice highways that further connect Chiapas to the rest of Mexico. I would be able to get around to other parts of the country more quickly. However, I wonder what will be lost because of it. I would not like to see it done with the displacement and unfair treatment of the indigenous. Furthermore, I get uncomfortable when private companies monopolize water, electricity, communications etc.

But again, I am an odd egg. I wish we could all go back the simple life. Bartering, subsistence farming and gun toting.


Total nonsense, Zorba and I say that as one who respects your opinion.

Dawg did not just arrive on the cambion de nave.

Dawg grew up in the corrupted, white supremist South Alabama of the 1940s and 1950s before the interstate highway system opened up that dismal swamp to the world and changed the port of
Mobile from a corrupted backwater into an important international port and the steel town of Birmingham from a hard nosed, racist steel mill forge to a city engaged in more intellectual endeavors. I have since seen what highways did to change Highland Chiapas. Do not put down the importance of transportation to Dawg.


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Dec 3, 2009, 4:26 PM)


Manuel Dexterity

Dec 3, 2009, 5:10 PM

Post #12 of 23 (10687 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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In Reply To

I have since seen what highways did to change Highland Chiapas. Do not put down the importance of transportation to Dawg.


Have you now? You have been in Chiapas how long?


Zorba

Dec 4, 2009, 12:15 AM

Post #13 of 23 (10659 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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No worries Dawg, I appreciate your honest opinion. I hope you are right and I am wrong.

Btw Dawg, have you seen Ken Burn's documentary "The War"? It focuses heavily on what happened in places like Mobile during WWII.


(This post was edited by Zorba on Dec 4, 2009, 12:25 AM)


Vichil

Dec 4, 2009, 6:03 AM

Post #14 of 23 (10644 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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I enjoy the new highway to San Cristobal as it is faster and less dangerous than the magnificent and scary old road . I think this road is beneficial to business but it also made the airport in San Cristobal totally useless...
There seem to be a surplus of unused or unusuable airports in the area.
I particurlarly like the one in the fog zone story....


BY the way I agree with you 100% many of the new roads in the highlands were built for the army rather than the benefit of the locals. They happen to help getting some goods to the market but it was not their primary goals. I suspect it will be the same for the roads being built to the various ports, bbuilt to get the goods to the ports..not for the locals.

In a selfish way I hate to see some of the area bust open, I think a lot of his charm is its remoteness and isolation, the Tikal Palenque part of the jungle may gain a lot in tourism if a large highway is built but it will loose a lot of its attraction to me but que sera sera...


Zorba

Dec 4, 2009, 9:22 AM

Post #15 of 23 (10622 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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"In a selfish way I hate to see some of the area bust open, I think a lot of his charm is its remoteness and isolation, the Tikal Palenque part of the jungle may gain a lot in tourism if a large highway is built but it will loose a lot of its attraction to me but que sera sera..."

Ya, that's what I meant by wondering what would be lost with the development. Some of us go to Chiapas because it is off the beaten path. The more development, the less diversity generally. I think that as the world globalizes more and more, cultures become more and more the same. As a result, the world gets just a little more boring. I personally would like to see the Bedou continue to use their henna, the Japanese their Kimono and the Lacandon their traditions. It would be nice if they could take the benefits of development like improved healthcare without losing their unique identity. I have yet to see this work unfortunately. Cultures ultimately end up getting watered down and everyone winds up at Mcdonalds and Walmart.


Hound Dog

Dec 4, 2009, 9:33 AM

Post #16 of 23 (10620 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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 Have you now? You have been in Chiapas how long?


Since 2006 We have had a residence we reconstructed from a ruin in the El Cerriilo barrio which was a disgrace to the neighborhood and we did it in in Spanish colonial style without variance from traditional Spanish architectural traditions of the Spanish enclave centered in the Jovel Valley for the past 400 plus years . We are quite proud of our contribution to the preservation of this Spanish colonial city with a rich and fabulous history in both colonial and pre -colonial times Tell me what you accomplished in Chiapas besides the deforestation of vital woodlands essential to life on the planet and don´t lay it off on PEMEX .

Nothing personal, by the way, Manuel. For reasons that escape me at present, I find you entertaining and actually admire your gumption at moving to a foreign land and engaging in the dangerous work of lumberjacking unless, of course, you are making the whole thing up


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Dec 4, 2009, 10:50 AM)


Manuel Dexterity

Dec 4, 2009, 2:15 PM

Post #17 of 23 (10589 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Dude, I wasn't felling the trees or setting chokers. We let local crews have all of that fun.I was cruising with a pair of calipers and tagging the trees and keeping a half-assed inventory. The reason I got the job was I was young and strong enough to hike all day, honest and willing to work up a sweat. Plus the boss' daughter had the hots for me. I think he was hoping I'd fall into a ravine and break my neck or at least get lost. But that would have been hard for even the dumbest pendejo since it was a fixed area plot that was already marked by the surveyors.

And at least the timber we hauled out of their was put to good use. Not like the totally destructive methods of clearing land the cattle ranchers employ so gluttonous Wimpys can have their hamburgers today and pay later.


Hound Dog

Dec 5, 2009, 10:45 AM

Post #18 of 23 (10526 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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And at least the timber we hauled out of their was put to good use. Not like the totally destructive methods of clearing land the cattle ranchers employ so gluttonous Wimpys can have their hamburgers today and pay later.

I hate to tell you this, Manuel, but you have become a hero for The Dawg. However, I may take exception to your inference that "Wimpy" here will pay later to his hamburger indiscretions. Wimpy is aware of this but does not need to be reminded of what awaits him down the road as it does you buntbrain.

Tell me what better use to which timber could be used than clearing the land for big fat cattle needed to supply the Dawg with his loathesome hamburgers.,


(This post was edited by Hound Dog on Dec 5, 2009, 11:38 AM)


wendy devlin

Dec 5, 2009, 1:39 PM

Post #19 of 23 (10498 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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In the news this week, the murder of Abarca Roblero, an activist against mining in Chicomuselo, Chiapas, was murdered. Mr. Abarca was an important member of the community who had suffered threats, prison and violence due to his opposition to the mining activities of Calgary-based Blackfire Exploration.

http://www.canadians.org/.../2009/03-Dec-09.html

Some information about Blackfire's involvement with Plan Puebla-Panama, specifically the Port of Chiapas from the company's own website.

http://www.blackfireexploration.com/default.asp?id=20


Zorba

Dec 7, 2009, 8:28 AM

Post #20 of 23 (10435 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Thanks Wendy. Exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. An indigenous community threatened and ignored. A big mining company damaging the environment, selling Mexico's natural resources abroad, while not paying any or very little tax.


Hound Dog

Dec 8, 2009, 1:32 PM

Post #21 of 23 (10366 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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This has been an intelligent electronic discussion of the so-called "Plan Puebla-Panama with an appropriately ambiguous conclusion. I have enjoyed reading comments opposed to my own deliberately narrowly posited view which was intended as a discussion point rather than an inflexible position. A good, constructive exchange of viewpoints. Not that we will have any impact of the project itself but it was fun.


wendy devlin

Dec 8, 2009, 1:59 PM

Post #22 of 23 (10358 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Yesterday, three men with links to a Canadian mining company where charged in the killing of a Mexican activist, Today Dec. 8th Governor-General Michaëlle Jean(the Queen of England's representative in Canada and a prestigious political appointment) is scheduled to visit Chiapas.

A spokesman for Calgary-based Blackfire Exploration Ltd. confirmed that an employee, a former employee and a one-time company contractor were arrested in the Nov. 27 murder of Mariano Abarca Robledo, who had led local opposition against Blackfire's barite mine in Chicomuselo, Chiapas. (south of Comitan)

The fact that these three men have links to Blackfire, doesn't necessarily indicate corporate involvement. Although there could be a link.

The state of Chiapas and others has a long history of leftist guerilla activity plus internecine warfare. Whether impassioned emplyees pushed the envelope themselves or were they pushed?

Who's to know? The timing of the arrests is interesting.

What happens to the perps(if indeed they are the perps and not scapegoats) usually falls off the international news radar around this point.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/...robe/article1392163/


(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Dec 8, 2009, 3:14 PM)


Zorba

Dec 8, 2009, 9:40 PM

Post #23 of 23 (10331 views)

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Re: [wendy devlin] Plan Puebla-Panama. Yay or Nay?

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Wow. Looks like Canada has some dirty little secrets. Very interesting and somewhat worrisome for me as a Canadian living in Chiapas. I cringed at the skull and cross bones on the Canadian flag. Not because I am patriotic, but because I wouldn't like to be associated with such goings on and, therefore, be even less welcome in the beautiful highlands of Chiapas.

Are there negative attitudes in the region towards Canadians because of this?


(This post was edited by Zorba on Dec 8, 2009, 9:46 PM)
 
 
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