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wendy devlin

Oct 18, 2009, 11:22 AM

Post #26 of 43 (6649 views)

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Re: [Maritsa] Trueque

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When I finally visited Chiapas and his home village, I was amazed by how knowledgable he, his family and friends actually are. They may not have formal education, but they do pay attention and discuss everything. But then life revolves around cooking, cleaning, caring for the children, and so family closeness and communication are an everyday thing. Even though I had asked many questions, it was not until I went to Chiapas that it all began to make sense to me.
*************************************************************** Permit me a little stab at a big topic.

Maritsa's comment above about family and friends paying attention and discussing everything, seems key to this discussion. Most people as infants and then children, pick up oral language as easily as young ducklings take to the water.

Certain sounds, arrangements of sounds are thought to be universal similiar and some experts, who study this topic in detail, suggest that human beings are 'wired' to use language. Infants start mimicking sounds and learn the meanings of 'sounds'(words) from the people around them, starting with their primary caregivers. Their success or lack thereof, is in daily living, continually reinforced or alternately, 'corrected'. Gradually their speaking skills come under a wider tutelage, other children in the family, other children, teachers, social groups, they join or identify with etc.

Basically then, learning to talk, becoming understood by others, important to one's well-being is a natural process. The richer, the language environment, in this regard, often influences the acquired language skills.

In Mexico, family is everything. From what, I've experienced, everyone talks to the new baby, and young children are doted upon. Within the extended family, which is often very large, even more people are brought into the language equation. Then there's the close friends, and the close friends of friends and the language/communication circle widens.

The comment, about 'cooking, cleaning and looking after the children' or other shared experiences like relationships, is also true. These topics and others, are continually being discussed, compared, commented on.

Men have a whole another range of topics, they discuss continually with people whose opinions they value. Then there's the aspect of 'entertaining' each other, story-telling and pleasuring people with language.

Learning to spell and understand the formal rules of any written language, eg. grammar is another kettle of fish entirely. I believe, if my memory serves correct, deploying other learning areas in the brain. Usually children are not ready to learn to spell and read until after infancy. Although this topic is often debated and endless studies/research papers and academic/professional careers built upon exploring this topic.

Some people take to learning to spell and the many inconsistencies of spelling easily and other people, find it hard and frustrating. People without formal education to the 2 or 3 year (and a great many people in Mexico do not continue school after the 6th year) many be handicapped in learning the ins and outs of written language.

Besides some teachers teaching the subject are not necessarily strong in this department of language, themselves. etc. etc. Or focus on other parts of the educational program.


(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Oct 18, 2009, 11:42 AM)


tonyburton


Oct 18, 2009, 1:30 PM

Post #27 of 43 (6628 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Trueque

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This has nothing to do with Spanish, but by coincidence I was reading (or trying to read) an academic article yesterday about womyn and the herstory of womyn. Apparently, there is now a whole school of interest in avoiding such gender-biased words as women and history. Tony


Hound Dog

Oct 18, 2009, 3:32 PM

Post #28 of 43 (6613 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Trueque

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Pretty funny and a total waste of time....if languages need to be changed they will change themselves PC or not....
I particularly like herstory,,,


La Isla


Oct 20, 2009, 10:15 AM

Post #29 of 43 (6589 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Trueque

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People and languages like to simplify the way they comunicate and will use the English word if it is easier. Fighting Spanglish is good for the purity of the language but Spanglish will win in the every day life as it fills a need.


I think that the reasons that English words are often adopted into Spanish goes beyond the fact that sometimes English words are easier to use. I think that a lot of it has to do with the perceived "prestige" that using English words confers, even when a perfectly good Spanish equivalent exists. I've noticed that publications catering to the young and hip use much more English (in italics, of course) than do standard publications.


Vichil

Oct 20, 2009, 1:46 PM

Post #30 of 43 (6575 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Trueque

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Yes I agree the prestige may have something to do although the same thing is happening in France where English is not considered prestigious. Now we have many more people speaking Arabic, Arabic words are also sneaking in the language when the French do not have a good equivalent..

If you watch Bollywwod movies you will hear a lot of English within the Hindi or what ever language is spoken.

This is happening in many many countries,even countries where English was not widely spoken before. English is less stilted than many languages and the English words catch on.


gpkgto

Oct 20, 2009, 2:48 PM

Post #31 of 43 (6568 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Trueque

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Anyone who has traveled outside the US has seen that American "culture" has invaded virtually every country--US movies, music, McCorporations, etc. are everywhere. The language naturally follows.


sergiogomez / Moderator

Oct 21, 2009, 11:12 PM

Post #32 of 43 (6546 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Trueque

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One of the reason English is use in a large part of the world and gaining access to many other cultures is that the basic vocabulary is very poor and easy to pick up and the other is that the language is very flexible and can make up new words as the need comes up.


English does not have a word for mujer ...the word woman was "with man" originally, talking about poor vocabulary!!

Which can be loads of fun, or exceedingly frustrating, as the case may be. Making up words, that is. As for the woman/man thing in English--I did not know that! That would start some discussion in English lit class!


Peter


Oct 22, 2009, 7:24 AM

Post #33 of 43 (6535 views)

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Re: [sergiogomez] Trueque

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One of the reason English is use in a large part of the world and gaining access to many other cultures is that the basic vocabulary is very poor and easy to pick up and the other is that the language is very flexible and can make up new words as the need comes up.


English does not have a word for mujer ...the word woman was "with man" originally, talking about poor vocabulary!!

Which can be loads of fun, or exceedingly frustrating, as the case may be. Making up words, that is. As for the woman/man thing in English--I did not know that! That would start some discussion in English lit class!



Rolly


Oct 22, 2009, 8:37 AM

Post #34 of 43 (6524 views)

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Re: [Peter] Trueque

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Off topic warning.

"Which can be loads of fun, or exceedingly frustrating, as the case may be. Making up words, that is"

A long time ago, I read a fascinating article related to the development of the atomic bomb entitled "Present at the Creation." It was not, as the title might imply, about the creation of the bomb. Rather, it was about the creation of new words needed to describe the new concepts and discoveries -- a technical vocabulary for the atomic age.

Rolly Pirate


Peter


Oct 22, 2009, 2:39 PM

Post #35 of 43 (6506 views)

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Re: [Peter] Trueque

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Too bad my response in my last post didn't make it onto the board, only the quote I was responding to. Too bad because I can't remember what I wrote, but I'm sure it was brilliant.

The part I remember was that I thought 'woman' meant something more like 'womb-man' that 'with man,' at least it is more descriptive.

While gaining my degree in journalism we were all conscious of gender-correctness. It was difficult to be overtly conscious and conspicuously sympathetic to the problem without rewriting the English language and renaming all jobs performed in the US - which they wound up doing anyway. My own attempts to be PC in this and be inclusive would yield clumsy results like (s)he, or he/she, which were hard to read and keep rhythm. I was seeking an all inclusive word that would also be fair to our inanimate neighbors as well and include the neuter article, it - after all some lore says plants and even rocks have consciousness and I don't want to offend. In the end it was hopeless, the best I could come up with sounded like "she'it."


"El Gringo Jalapeño"


Oct 23, 2009, 12:26 AM

Post #36 of 43 (6492 views)

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Re: [shoe] Trueque

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¡Hola, amigos y compinches de la jerga mexicana! Here in Xalapa, Veracruz I use the term "trueque" all the time and I use or "do" it all the time, wether it is for my services as a photographer or for goods. My most memorable experience when "trueque" made a lot of difference in my life was in 1992 when we were building our house here in Xalapa, and as usual I had run out of money and materials while the crew of "albañiles" were ready to keep on working. As many of you know, the "stop and go" construction can be very taxing. Anyway I was at the lockers at the Club Britania tennis club and the fellow next to me asks..."How much do you charge for photographic coverage of my daughter's quinceaños". I told him I charged X$$$ for my services, which I knew since Mexico once again was in the midst of it many monetary devaluations my services would seem very expense. So I commented..."I know you sell building material and you have a hard time selling it with the tight economy, so why don't we do "trueque", X number of tons of cemento and barrilla and alambron and etc. for the photographs". As you can imagine the deal seemed pretty good to him and he was able to fulfill his role as a loving father for his daughter. Even today he waives cheerily at me when we pass and thanks me for the pictures.
Bueno, pues, tengo mucho sueño y mañana va a ser un dia largo.
¡Portense mal y cuidense bien, sin mirar a quien!
Roy B. Dudley "El Gringo Jalapeño" See more about Xalapa at www.xalaparoy.com


Judy in Ags


Oct 28, 2009, 6:25 AM

Post #37 of 43 (6451 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Trueque

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"The verb for barter would be trocar. Yes, it is old and out of use, just like bartering. "Think I will go down to the store today and do some bartering". In the modern context, even if you are actually bartering, use cambiar."

There are several verbs which we used regularly in Portuguese; they exist in Spanish, but are used only infrequently. "Trocar" is one of those. "Morar" (vivir) is infrequently used here and almost always used in Portuguese, etc.

After six and a half years here in Mexico, our Portuguese is no longer at the front of our minds when the speak-foreign-language-light comes on. In fact, it's increasingly difficult to speak Portuguese. (Of course it's been 38 years since we lived in Brazil.) With Vonage's addition of 60 countries to call at no added cost, we do, however, call our friends in Brazil more frequently and get to use our rusty Portuguese.

Just when I think I've gotten it all sorted out, though, some crazy thought goes through my mind. Like this a.m. as I was putting away the silverware, I thought--exactly these words--"I put todos los garfos aqui." I put (English) todos (both) los (Spanish) garfos (Portuguese) aqui (both). I guess my mind is still a mixture, or is it a "mezcla", or is it a "mistura", or was it just too early to be thinking anything?


(This post was edited by Judy in Ags on Oct 28, 2009, 6:28 AM)


zaragemca

Nov 7, 2009, 8:47 AM

Post #38 of 43 (6414 views)

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Re: [Judy in Ags] Trueque

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Greeting, the situation which we find in relation to the languages is common in all the countries where the people have no been educated in relation the the grammatical structures and words, and the fact that even in Spain, there is not a unite way to speak, (it all depend on the region/city), like Cataluna, Galicia, Vascuna, Aragones, Andalucia, etc. Troca is an spaninglish, created by Mexican living around or in Texas and it is coming from the name, trucks. Lonche, is the same. The hispanic regular way to say trucks, is, camioneta, (for small one); and camion, (for bigger capacity); but in Mexico this word, (camion), is used to mean, (bus). Diestra, means to use the right, or, to the right angle, and Siniestra, to use the left, or, to the left angle. Even the, Real Academia de la Lengua Espanola, get toguether every few years to correct, or, to incorporate new words which are in common use already. But in every country there are regional words, which are developed and used by those people which created those words. Gerry Zaragemca
International Club of Percussionists

(This post was edited by zaragemca on Nov 7, 2009, 8:59 AM)


Judy in Ags


Nov 7, 2009, 2:17 PM

Post #39 of 43 (6395 views)

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Re: [zaragemca] Trueque

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"Troca is an spaninglish, created by Mexican living around or in Texas and it is coming from the name, trucks"

"Trocar" is also a legitimate Spanish word "trocar" vt 1. [transformar] - --algo (en algo) 2. [intercambiar] to swap, to exchange 3. [malinterpretar] to mix up.


La Isla


Nov 7, 2009, 4:59 PM

Post #40 of 43 (6385 views)

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Re: [Judy in Ags] Trueque

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The Spanglish term "troca" for "truck" and the Spanish verb "trocar" have no relationship other than the spelling.


esperanza

Nov 7, 2009, 6:00 PM

Post #41 of 43 (6380 views)

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Re: [Judy in Ags] Trueque

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Please go read this thread starting with post #11 on page 1. We have been over all this.


http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Peter


Nov 7, 2009, 7:44 PM

Post #42 of 43 (6373 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Trueque

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I feel I have made some progress as I had picked up a bit of Spanglish while living in California but have discarded those words. However, as English articles start creeping into my Spanish throughout the day - my best Spanish seems to be early in the morning before I start thinking - I ask pardon from my friends for speaking in Inglespañol.


sergiogomez / Moderator

Nov 8, 2009, 4:31 PM

Post #43 of 43 (6346 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Trueque

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The Spanglish term "troca" for "truck" and the Spanish verb "trocar" have no relationship other than the spelling.

Hey, it's OK. Sometimes it's easy to get lost in a thread, especially when some of the posts are long.
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