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jl1

Oct 27, 2009, 4:36 PM

Post #26 of 83 (5108 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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You are a piece of work. There is a big difference between stating opinions and attacking individuals. You're the guy who referred to windshield cleaners as lower than life. For your info, I grew up in one of the poorest housing projects in NEWARK N.J. What the hell do you know about Jersey City? As for your insinuation that I do nothing for my own community, you're even more of an idiot. I and my wife do more for our community here than we do in Mexico. This forum has taken a decided step downward ever since you arrived, or returned, or whatever. Give your stilted opinions a rest and let the grownups talk for a while.


mcm

Oct 27, 2009, 4:44 PM

Post #27 of 83 (5103 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Thanks for the thoughtful, and thought-provoking (I hope) post, Esperanza.
You're absolutely right -- what some posters (re, bringing goods across the border, circumventing residency and work requirements) advocate is breaking the law. What I find a bit astonishing is that folks encourage others to do the same. There are all sorts of justifications (see several posts above), but it does seem to me that if you want to live in a country (or state), you should make an effort to abide by its regulations. For the most part (I've lived here more than a decade), they seem pretty reasonable to me.
This is not, of course, to say that I haven't packed various banned food products in my luggage and hoped for a green light...


Peter


Oct 27, 2009, 5:08 PM

Post #28 of 83 (5093 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Think about the first bribe and who is the culprit in what followed: Eve, who took the bribe, or Satan who offered it?

I'm not sure who to thank most for that but the world from my point of view the world is a better place for it. I don't think life could have gone on like it did before that all happened. I'm rather glad Adam became a participant and helped put a grand scheme into action. Hats off to all those who continue the tradition.


Axixic


Oct 27, 2009, 7:00 PM

Post #29 of 83 (5071 views)

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Re: [Hound Dog] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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My interpretation of the Garden of Eden story and according to a priest I told it to a decade or so ago, he thought I was right. I'll write the short version. The Garden of Eden story of which I believe never happened and is reported in religions older than the Bible, has caused harm to women by blaming them for male weaknesses.

Adam was in charge of the Garden, When he saw that Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit he knew she would be punished, banned from their home which meant he would never see her again. Adam decided that he loved woman more than he loved God The Parent. Adam chose Eve over his own comfort and security knowing that outside the Garden he would work hard hours providing food, shelter and protection for Eve but he would rather suffer with her than be without her. The Parent saw what Adam had done, that Adam chose to join Eve in Eve's banishment and the Parent knew he had created the perfect man. For humans to survive, a man had to be able to love something or someone more than he loved himself, so the Parent God succeeded in his creation of Adam and he was pleased.

There wasn't sin. It was a test of maturity and the ability to love. God wanted man to be able to love woman or anything else, more than man loved himself of even God.


(This post was edited by PamelaDelafield on Oct 27, 2009, 7:02 PM)


Axixic


Oct 27, 2009, 7:30 PM

Post #30 of 83 (5052 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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I feel certain (well, almost certain) that most if not all posters on Mexconnect abide by the laws of their countries, whatever those countries might be. What's the rationale behind being--or wanting to be--a scofflaw in another country?

Quote

I hope you didn't misunderstand what I asked on the other thread. We will not be crossing with anything that needs to be declared once I understood what is exempt. Her easy chair is considered part of her handicapped items since she has to sleep sitting up, I was concerned with new and enthusiastic border agents wanting to examine everything which means unpacking the back of a Suburban. With a 90 year old mother on oxygen and because I have several herniated discs, I really do not want to pull everything out. At least I will be bringing my full torso back brace that I left behind 4 years ago. I didn't bring anything then but a small amount of clothing because I thought I'd return to the U.S. within 2 weeks. This will be my first trip across with any belongings.


smokesilver

Oct 27, 2009, 7:40 PM

Post #31 of 83 (5049 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Of course Bubba is just telling it like it is...nothing more & nothing less.


tashby


Oct 28, 2009, 11:42 AM

Post #32 of 83 (4974 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Yet some Mexconnect posters write very revealing posts about their desire to get around Mexico's traffic laws, customs laws, and immigration laws.

<snip>

What's the rationale behind being--or wanting to be--a scofflaw in another country? What am I missing?


My thoughts on this are so cynical I'm reluctant to share them. But I think for some people who move here from the United States it often involves:

1. A uniquely oversized and profoundly unhealthy sense of entitlement
2. A lack of respect for Mexico and Mexicans

and, in some cases....

3. An underlying, subtle form of, racism

Oooops. There's the "r" word, which I really hesitate to use. To be clear, I'm not talking about the "string 'em up and hang 'em" variety. I'm talking about a vague, ill-founded sense of superiority, probably rooted in simple-minded ingnorance, that allows some people to feel entitled to ignore Mexican laws. (There's that word 'entitled' again.)

And I am not talking about mordida. I think it's interesting that this discussion immediately focused on that.

Obviously, these also aren't "rationales" for behavior either, just my theories as to why some people might conclude that Mexican laws aren't worth respecting.

And again, I'm only talking about people from the United States because those are the only people I know anything about. I also suspect that expats from the United States who move to other countries besides Mexico behave in much the same way.

I don't imagine this post will make me any fans.


Gringal

Oct 28, 2009, 12:10 PM

Post #33 of 83 (4965 views)

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Re: [tashby] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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I will repeat: The people who are law-abiding in the NOB tend to be law-abiding wherever they go. Why? because they have built-in ethics. There are plenty of people who will try to get away with whatever they can, whever they are. I don't think it's about racism. I think it's about "me first, to hell with the others". This attitude was generously spread all over our NOB financial sector very recently, and continues unabated wherever it is permitted.


RickS


Oct 28, 2009, 12:21 PM

Post #34 of 83 (4960 views)

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Re: [tashby] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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"I don't imagine this post will make me any fans."

But it sure as hell shouldn't loose you any either....

But I'm with Gringal on this one. I don't see it as racism at all, although there is enough of that going on otherwise in all corners. No, I just think that there are many of us who sometimes let our desire for 'cost containment' (or is it just 'control'?) over-rule our thinking process.

(This post was edited by RickS on Oct 28, 2009, 12:23 PM)


tashby


Oct 28, 2009, 12:38 PM

Post #35 of 83 (4955 views)

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Re: [RickS] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Thanks.

And sorry! I tried to write carefully, but....

I didn't mean to suggest that racism plays a role in all cases, just in some. I agree with you and Gringal in large part.

Don't want this to unravel because of my sloppy writing.


(This post was edited by tashby on Oct 28, 2009, 12:42 PM)


Zorba

Oct 28, 2009, 1:06 PM

Post #36 of 83 (4941 views)

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Re: [tashby] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Mexicans themselves don't follow the laws! So how is it that foreigners are being disrespectful to Mexicans?

Some expats come to Mexico in order to live a less regulated life where rules can be bent or broken. You have no right to judge them. You are imposing your own rigid belief on both expats and Mexicans.

Having said that, I do agree that expats seem to leave their brain at the border plenty. Just don't do anything that even the locals don't do. Unfortunately some people who haven't lived abroad enough, have a false sense of security based on their nationality. Your government can't do shit for you if you break a serious law of the land.


(This post was edited by Zorba on Oct 28, 2009, 1:31 PM)


Gringal

Oct 28, 2009, 1:13 PM

Post #37 of 83 (4938 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Oh, you mean it's okay to be "a law unto oneself"? ...And those who are "law abiding" are therefore "self-righteous"?

Easy shot....but unless you favor Anarchy as a system for society......


(This post was edited by Gringal on Oct 28, 2009, 1:23 PM)


Zorba

Oct 28, 2009, 1:22 PM

Post #38 of 83 (4935 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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No man, it's called Me-hi-co! Haha! Cheers!


Zorba

Oct 28, 2009, 1:26 PM

Post #39 of 83 (4931 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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You guys need to start following the law in Mexico which is there is no law. Stop f'ng with the WA!


(This post was edited by Zorba on Oct 28, 2009, 1:28 PM)


Peter


Oct 28, 2009, 2:09 PM

Post #40 of 83 (4914 views)

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Re: [Zorba] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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You guys need to start following the law in Mexico which is there is no law.

Actually there is a law, it's called "La Ley de Herodes."


Manuel Dexterity

Oct 28, 2009, 2:34 PM

Post #41 of 83 (4923 views)

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Re: [tashby] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Yet some Mexconnect posters write very revealing posts about their desire to get around Mexico's traffic laws, customs laws, and immigration laws.

<snip>

What's the rationale behind being--or wanting to be--a scofflaw in another country? What am I missing?


My thoughts on this are so cynical I'm reluctant to share them. But I think for some people who move here from the United States it often involves:

1. A uniquely oversized and profoundly unhealthy sense of entitlement
2. A lack of respect for Mexico and Mexicans

and, in some cases....

3. An underlying, subtle form of, racism

Oooops. There's the "r" word, which I really hesitate to use. To be clear, I'm not talking about the "string 'em up and hang 'em" variety. I'm talking about a vague, ill-founded sense of superiority, probably rooted in simple-minded ingnorance, that allows some people to feel entitled to ignore Mexican laws. (There's that word 'entitled' again.)

And I am not talking about mordida. I think it's interesting that this discussion immediately focused on that.

Obviously, these also aren't "rationales" for behavior either, just my theories as to why some people might conclude that Mexican laws aren't worth respecting.

And again, I'm only talking about people from the United States because those are the only people I know anything about. I also suspect that expats from the United States who move to other countries besides Mexico behave in much the same way.

I don't imagine this post will make me any fans.


Well you picked up a fan here, tashby. I also agree that many many Americans and Canadians share an underlying racism that prohibits them from accepting both Mexico and Mexicans as their equal.

I have lived in this country for a very long time, been married over 30 years and the oldest of my kids just turned 30. When we were first married we lived in a small beach town that had its share of foreign tourists and snowbirds.

Back then we would socialize some with foreigners but after hearing countless comments with racial or bigoted undertones we simply stopped accepting invitations to gringo gatherings. They weren't like you say, vitriolic racist statements but tidbits here and there that revealed their true opinions of this country and its people.

The same goes for many people on these boards. And the sad part is they just don't get it.


esperanza

Oct 28, 2009, 3:10 PM

Post #42 of 83 (4902 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Tashby and Sr. Dexterity, I agree with both of you.

It's always amazing to me to hear the amount of conscious or unconscious racism that exists among English-speaking foreigners in Mexico. It starts with this belittling kind of statement: "Oh, that little woman who runs the corner store is so sweet..." and goes right on up the ladder to, "If only they weren't so backward..." and farther still to statements that I wouldn't even mention here.




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









arbon

Oct 28, 2009, 3:11 PM

Post #43 of 83 (4899 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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Mexicans do not want to be treated as equals to foreigners .. Mexicans want to be treated as Mexicans and equal to other Mexicans. (and they are not treated as equals by other Mexicans)

That would be something to work towards, as well as giving all Mexicans a birth certificate at birth, so they can go to school.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The "World Series" is a case in point, do you "get it"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by arbon on Oct 28, 2009, 3:24 PM)


mazbook1


Oct 28, 2009, 3:15 PM

Post #44 of 83 (4896 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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"Back then we would socialize some with foreigners but after hearing countless comments with racial or bigoted undertones we simply stopped accepting invitations to gringo gatherings. They weren't like you say, vitriolic racist statements but tidbits here and there that revealed their true opinions of this country and its people.

The same goes for many people on these boards. And the sad part is they just don't get it."

¡Por fin!
I get to agree 100% with Sr. Dexterity. My wife and I stopped socializing with the expats a number of years ago for exactly the same reason. Also, with one exception, ALL of the expats I know who are in mixed (gringo - Mexican) marriages feel exactly the same. The one exception I know of makes their living at services for gringo snowbirds, so they feel obligated to accept invitations, attend events, etc., but they often have to grit their teeth and let off steam at home afterwards. The amount of condescension is/was absolutely unbelievable, in some cases it definitely was/approached racism.

On one forum there were once so many posts of this sort that I couldn't contain myself and was often threatened with expulsion. However, I persevered and now (2-3 years later) there are seldom any of these sorts of posts on that forum.


(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Oct 28, 2009, 3:36 PM)


RickS


Oct 28, 2009, 3:26 PM

Post #45 of 83 (4888 views)

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Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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"...many Americans and Canadians share an underlying racism that prohibits them from accepting both Mexico and Mexicans as their equal."

A couple of thoughts.... it is not just Americans and Canadians and it (racial prejudice) is not just about Mexico and Mexicans of course. I would direct your thoughts to the world at large as proof of that fact. But even with 'Americans', of whom I have the most experience since I am one, the focus is not solely on Mexicans although that is currently the most-favored clan. We tend to spread it around.

Your comment 'we would socialize some with foreigners but after hearing countless comments with racial or bigoted undertones we simply stopped accepting invitations to gringo gatherings' brought back a painful memory. I grew up in Louisiana in the 40-50s, graduated and left the state for the rest of my adult life. But still having family and extended family in the bayou state I made numerous trips back over the ensuing years. What I experienced, and this was well into the 70s-80s mind you, is that the 'talk around the table' invariably turned to race... in this case the Negro of course... and the comments and jokes were unmistakably racist in tone. And these folks were supposedly educated and not 'white trash'. So, like you, I simply stopped accepting invitations to 'go home' (but all the while kept my mouth shut, for which I was not particularly proud then or now, but that's another story).

Anyway, I sticking to my view that it is probably not racism that causes the majority of folks who cross the border to 'try their luck with the nothing-to-declare line. It may be another frailty, but probably not wholesale racism (and I tend to know that when I see it).


Gringal

Oct 28, 2009, 3:29 PM

Post #46 of 83 (4885 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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...and there is a reason why it takes 400 times as many personnel to protect President Obama as it did to protect President Bush.

...and then there's the prejudice of Mexicans against Mexicans with lower status or darker skin.

...and all the other mindless and cruel treatment of one segment of mankind against another. Is this just the human condition: trying to make the "other" less in order to feel "more"?


RickS


Oct 28, 2009, 3:33 PM

Post #47 of 83 (4881 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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BINGO!


mazbook1


Oct 28, 2009, 4:25 PM

Post #48 of 83 (4865 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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This is a reply both to Gringal (love that handle!) and arbon. Gringal says (and arbon posted something similar), "...and then there's the prejudice of Mexicans against Mexicans with lower status or darker skin."

I know this absolutely does exist in some upper-class/wealthy Mexicans, but if you associate more with working-class folks or even working-class folks who have boot-strapped themselves up to educated middle class, you never see this. They seriously take to heart the Constitution, which says that all Mexicans are equal.

This was very much true 50 years ago. The "Spanish" girls didn't even shave their armpits or legs and never went out in the sun without a parasol in order to prove to folks they weren't mestizo. Well-to-do "Spanish" parents even had private parties for their children where no mestizo children were invited so that their children would meet the sort of girls/boys that the family considered acceptable future mates for them. That sort of thing is very rare today in México, but does still exist in some social circles (not the no-shaving thing, though. That was ugly and disgusting.) You do still see, even in the colonias, older obviously mestizo, women who won't go out in the sun without a parasol so they don't tan. But I've seen this phenomenom fade by almost 50% in the twelve years I have lived full time in México (Sinaloa).


esperanza

Oct 28, 2009, 4:51 PM

Post #49 of 83 (4852 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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In Reply To
This is a reply both to Gringal (love that handle!) and arbon. Gringal says (and arbon posted something similar), "...and then there's the prejudice of Mexicans against Mexicans with lower status or darker skin."

...but if you associate more with working-class folks or even working-class folks who have boot-strapped themselves up to educated middle class, you never see this. They seriously take to heart the Constitution, which says that all Mexicans are equal.

Boy oh boy, this status and skin color prejudice is still the rule in among the many working-class people I know, not only in Morelia but all over the República. For example, a few years back my working-class neighbor gave birth to a baby boy. Her first comment to me was, "Gracias a Dios que salió blanco y no tan prieto como su papá." ('Thank god he came out white and not so dark like his father.') Another friend, also working class, commented about her nephew's girlfriend: "Si se case con esa trigueñita, los niños van a salir bien morenitos igual que la mamá. Qué triste para mi hermana." ('If he gets married to that little black girl, the kids will come out really dark, just like their mother. How sad for my sister.') And the comment about a recent quinceañera: "Qué ridícula se ve esa muchacha indita, como una puerca vestida de novia. Porqué no se queda con su propria raza de gente."

I could cite another dozen remarks just like that, but those will suffice. This type racism and prejudice hasn't died off at all.




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Carron

Oct 30, 2009, 8:45 AM

Post #50 of 83 (4705 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Questions and Concerns about Foreigners in Mexico

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When I taught at two universities and a couple of exclusive private schools in Chiapas the vast majority of my students were wealthy, tall, and fair-skinned. "Spanish", in other words. There was a huge disparity between their class and the short, dark indigenous peoples who usually sold things (or simply begged) on the sidewalks in the mercados or were relegated to the kitchens for 6 1/2 days each week, well out of sight of more socially acceptable guests.

Even I, who had been raised in southern Louisiana during the 40's and 50', had much more normal associations with "coloureds" back then and was shocked at the current segregation in Chiapas. Chiapas didn't even need to have signs posted!!

I don't predict this changing anytime soon, no matter how many Zapatistas rise up in protest.
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