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shoe


Oct 15, 2009, 9:16 AM

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Trueque

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I was wondering what the word for Barter was as I did some trading last week. As my gf and I were riding in the truck I asked her to look up barter and I explained what it was. She said it was cambiar but she would look it up. The dictionary said trueque and cambiar as a alternative. Her comment was trueque was a old word and most people use cambiar.

My questions is: What is more common in your opinion?


Also on this same ride I asked her to look up counterclockwise. Sometimes she really does not want to look things up but I described what I was looking for and she found it in the dictionary and took great delight in telling me in very rapid Spanish "en sentido opuesto a las agujas del reloj", laughing all the time. And some people say that Spanish is not a descriptive language.

cya,
shoe


Nothing is intrinsically good or evil, but its manner of usage may make it so.
-St. Thomas Aquinas

(This post was edited by shoe on Oct 15, 2009, 9:19 AM)



morgaine7


Oct 15, 2009, 9:38 AM

Post #2 of 43 (9680 views)

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Re: [shoe] Trueque

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For counterclockwise, the instructions on my water heater say, ""en el sentido contrario al giro de las manecillas del reloj". Quite a mouthful, but there's no doubt of the meaning.

Kate


Zarcero

Oct 15, 2009, 10:34 AM

Post #3 of 43 (9668 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] Trueque

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Oh c'mon. Where do you guys get these dictionaries?

counterclokwise = siniestrógiro or levógira



Zarcero

Oct 15, 2009, 10:41 AM

Post #4 of 43 (9666 views)

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Re: [shoe] Trueque

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The verb for barter would be trocar. Yes, it is old and out of use, just like bartering. "Think I will go down to the store today and do some bartering". In the modern context, even if you are actually bartering, use cambiar.


Vichil

Oct 15, 2009, 11:47 AM

Post #5 of 43 (9657 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Trueque

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my gardener calls it intercambiar.

Lots of different ways of calling things depending on your background and education. A friend of mine told me to say entrepaños when referring to shelving, the cleaning lady calls it maderas..


Zarcero

Oct 15, 2009, 12:22 PM

Post #6 of 43 (9655 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Trueque

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intercambiar will also work in addition to just cambiar. The one I would leave out is trocar.

Yeah, you are correct with whatever the background/education is, kinda like choosing between ain't and isn't. But one ain't correct, or the other one isn't <smile>


(This post was edited by Zarcero on Oct 15, 2009, 12:24 PM)


esperanza

Oct 15, 2009, 12:33 PM

Post #7 of 43 (9651 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Trueque

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my gardener calls it intercambiar.

Lots of different ways of calling things depending on your background and education. A friend of mine told me to say entrepaños when referring to shelving, the cleaning lady calls it maderas..

The word I hear used most often for shelf is repisa.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Manuel Dexterity

Oct 15, 2009, 6:03 PM

Post #8 of 43 (9639 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Trueque

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Typically repisa refers to a stand alone wall shelf such as for nic nacs or other decorative items.

And entrepaño refers to shelves within another piece of furniture or cabinet. Such as the shelves in kitchen cabinets or book shelves in a bookcase.

Then there are anaqueles and estantes.


(This post was edited by Manuel Dexterity on Oct 15, 2009, 6:24 PM)


sergiogomez / Moderator

Oct 15, 2009, 10:09 PM

Post #9 of 43 (9621 views)

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Re: [shoe] Trueque

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Personal opinion: in everyday speech, the average Mexican will probably say cambiar. I'm going to trade my car for a truck would be something like voy a cambiar mi carro por una troca. Trade as in business or international trade would be intercambio. I've most often heard trueque in an academic context to describe barter, say in Mexico before the Spaniards showed up or something along those lines.


shoe


Oct 16, 2009, 7:59 AM

Post #10 of 43 (9601 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Trueque

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Zarcero; Neither of your words appear in any dictionary or work in translators that I can find..

My Mexican gf says she never heard of these words either.

Where did you find these words (siniestrógiro or levógira) or is it a joke that I do not get?

cya,
shoe

Nothing is intrinsically good or evil, but its manner of usage may make it so.
-St. Thomas Aquinas


esperanza

Oct 16, 2009, 10:50 AM

Post #11 of 43 (9578 views)

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Re: [sergiogomez] Trueque

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Personal opinion: in everyday speech, the average Mexican will probably say cambiar. I'm going to trade my car for a truck would be something like voy a cambiar mi carro por una troca. Trade as in business or international trade would be intercambio. I've most often heard trueque in an academic context to describe barter, say in Mexico before the Spaniards showed up or something along those lines.

Troca is Spanglish, or better said, a pochismo. The Spanish word for pickup, SUV, station wagon, and other vehicles of that type is camioneta. You might hear troca along the US/Mexico border or from someone in the interior who learned the word in the North, but it is not a Spanish word.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









gpkgto

Oct 16, 2009, 11:13 AM

Post #12 of 43 (9571 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Trueque

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It seems very common for Mexican people to not have or know the word for fairly common things. E.g., a doctor friend had no word for "searchlights" (at a store opening) and my cleaning woman could not give me the Spanish for "window sill." Why is that?


sergiogomez / Moderator

Oct 16, 2009, 11:14 AM

Post #13 of 43 (9571 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Trueque

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Spanglish or not, I know plenty of Mexicans who use the word. Not just chicanos or border-town Mexicans, but "real" Mexicans from the central highlands, the coasts, and even down south. It might not be educated, but hey, it's part of the language.


sergiogomez / Moderator

Oct 16, 2009, 11:22 AM

Post #14 of 43 (9569 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Trueque

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It seems very common for Mexican people to not have or know the word for fairly common things. E.g., a doctor friend had no word for "searchlights" (at a store opening) and my cleaning woman could not give me the Spanish for "window sill." Why is that?

I'm really not sure. My Mexican aunt, for example, doesn't use a word for the kitchen counter. If you're working in the kitchen, things aren't described in terms of their relation to the counter but to something else. Say, it's next to the stove, or beside the sink, or over there by the refrigerator. A searchlight outside a store might simply be "that big bright light outside the store." Maybe it's a lack of vocabulary. Spanish has got words for so many things that there probably is a good word, or several, for searchlight, but relatively uneducated speakers might tend not to use it.


Zarcero

Oct 16, 2009, 1:19 PM

Post #15 of 43 (9560 views)

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Re: [sergiogomez] Trueque

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Esperanza - trocar is an actual verb. However, the noun troca is Spanglish just as you say. I have heard troca used as far south as Panama. I even hear it used in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. To date I have not heard it used in South America, but the word is spreading. Maybe we could discuss this over lonche some time <smile>.


Rolly


Oct 16, 2009, 1:39 PM

Post #16 of 43 (9557 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Trueque

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My friends in Lerdo all say camioneta, but they don't correct me when I say troca, which I find easer to remember because it sounds like truck-a.

Rolly Pirate


Zarcero

Oct 16, 2009, 1:47 PM

Post #17 of 43 (9551 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Trueque

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Quote
Zarcero; Neither of your words appear in any dictionary or work in translators that I can find..

My Mexican gf says she never heard of these words either.

Where did you find these words (siniestrógiro or levógira) or is it a joke that I do not get?

cya,
shoe

Shoe,

Yes, it is a joke, but can I meet the girlfriend? <wink>

No, I am not joking. Let's look at what the REAL ACADEMIA ESPAÑOLA has to say about it, though quite frankly they lag on a lot of words, especially ones that have a technical bent on them. You can go to their website and check it out.


levógiro, ra.
(Del lat. laevus, izquierdo, y gy&#772;rus, giro).
1. adj. Que gira en el sentido contrario a las agujas del reloj.
2. adj. Quím. Dicho de una sustancia o de una disolución: Que hace girar a la izquierda el plano de la luz polarizada cuando se mira hacia la fuente. U. t. c. s. m.

siniestrógiro or rotación sinistrórsum, of which both also mean counterclockwise can also be found in technical dictionaries like Diccionario Para Ingenieros (a Mexico City publication) or Diccionario Técnico (a Madrid publication).

I believe my profile shows that I am an engineer. I provide technical services to Pemex as one of my clients and even teach schools (in Spanish) there in places like Cd. del Carmen (not to be confused with Playa del Carmen), DF, Villahermosa, Dos Bocas, etc. It does not surprise me however, that you would not know these words, or that incorrect translations would appear in instructions that are translated from English. There are some good explanations why this is the case. You should have seen the fits and misfires in translations coming about when personal computers became mass marketed items. The lag in translations are still lagging. Plus some non-technical societies often will not adopt the correct word usage even if the word is present in other sectors of that same society, counterclockwise is one such example.

Saludos,

Mike


esperanza

Oct 16, 2009, 2:06 PM

Post #18 of 43 (9547 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Trueque

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Esperanza - trocar is an actual verb. However, the noun troca is Spanglish just as you say. I have heard troca used as far south as Panama. I even hear it used in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. To date I have not heard it used in South America, but the word is spreading. Maybe we could discuss this over lonche some time <smile>.

Yes, I was going to add something about the verb infinitive trocar, but it just seemed that I would have been belaboring the point. I see that I would not have been and thank you for adding that.

Spanglish unfortunately spreads like flames on oil. My all-time favorite thing I ever heard (yes, it was said in my presence, in a client's living room) in Spanglish is this: Woman chastises her child, who is twisting the knob on the television: "Deja de monkear con la tele o te doy una buena!"

Great, next time you are in Morelia, we will definitely lonchear! Déjame saber!

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Zarcero

Oct 16, 2009, 2:25 PM

Post #19 of 43 (9543 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Trueque

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Hmmm. A two-martini lonche with maybe some monkeando afterwards? <grin>

In all seriousness, as communication technology proliferates, slang will continue to propagate. I haven't decided whether I like this or not. Spanglish isn't the only issue. There are a host of Mexicanisms that have crept into Costa Rica as well. There, I have also heard parents correcting their offspring on the usage of Mexican words. However, some of the Costa Ricans must love this. Last trip I made down there one of my cousins claimed that Mariachi music was actually invented in Costa Rica. I also remember at one time when I was a kid it was fashionable for the educated elite to feign an Uruguayan accent as a sign of education though most had never been to Uruguay. Go figure. Also, seems to me that Spain throws fits when Mexicanisms creep into their language. They demand that the word gringo has a completely different meaning in Spain and is of Spanish origin, yet when I hear it spoken over there they universally mean someone from the US. Go figure again. It's an interesting world. Argentine Spanish anyone? <giggle>


mazbook1


Oct 17, 2009, 5:54 PM

Post #20 of 43 (9513 views)

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Re: [gpkisner] Trueque

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gpkisner wrote: It seems very common for Mexican people to not have or know the word for fairly common things. E.g., a doctor friend had no word for "searchlights" (at a store opening) and my cleaning woman could not give me the Spanish for "window sill." Why is that?

One reason is that Spanish has many fewer words than English. A second reason is that many folks in service positions, e.g., maids, gardeners, etc., have a very low level of education compared to NOB. It's much easier to learn to read and write Spanish as a child than it is English, so expats often don't realize how little actual schooling folks in those lower-level occupations have in México.

You mention a doctor friend not knowing the word "searchlight". That too, I've found, is due to the difference between education in México and that NOB. A doctor in the U.S. graduated from high school with a very general education, then graduated from university with a reasonably general education (although tilted toward his post-graduate specialization), before he ever entered med school to become a doctor. This is true of nearly every professional pursuit NOB. Also, many, if not most, educated folks NOB read to a certain extent, as books are very, very inexpensive.

In México it's very different. Your doctor friend began specializing in prepa (high school) and after graduating went straight into a five year concentrated education in medicine at his university. Once he graduated, he had to do an internship, just like in the U.S. and may have been required to do up to a year's duty in some rural hospital or clinic to repay the state for his education. Once in private practice, he earns only a modest amount of money, placing him right in the middle of the middle class. There are few wealthy doctors in México compared to NOB. This means that he and his family probably have little truly disposable income and books are VERY expensive in México (besides which not offering—for the most part—the wide range of subject matter, viewpoint and even fiction that is offered NOB). Thus not many working class or middle class folks in México are readers to any extent. For example, I had an employee who graduated from the university and also had a certificate in English. He insisted there was no such word in Spanish as "enunciate" or "enunciation". Although he had a point in that standard spoken Spanish is NOT enunciated, I had to lead to him to the dictionary and show him there really was such a word in Spanish (although the most common meaning is a false cognate to English, and the Spanish word meaning approximately the same is articular). THEN I discovered that he hadn't had a single Spanish class, either in grammar or literature since he was in secundaria (junior high). I was aghast!


Vichil

Oct 18, 2009, 7:07 AM

Post #21 of 43 (9496 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Trueque

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One of the reason English is use in a large part of the world and gaining access to many other cultures is that the basic vocabulary is very poor and easy to pick up and the other is that the language is very flexible and can make up new words as the need comes up.
Most of the vocabulary coming from Latin is used by people with a good education only and are too specific to be used widely.

The Latin based languages have specific words that represent things or concepts but have a problem when new things and new concepts come up. English on the other end can take two comon words such as search and light and comunicate in a very easy and simple way the concept or object.
You can not do that in Latin base languages so people adapt the English word or have to describe the object or concept.

People and languages like to simplify the way they comunicate and will use the English word if it is easier. Fighting Spanglish is good for the purity of the language but Spanglish will win in the every day life as it fills a need.

By the way I have a very good education from France and I would have to look in a dictionary to see what the word for searchlight is as well. I am sure there is one but since I do not use the word I have no idea what it is. I do not think the problem with a doctor not knowing the word for searchlight in Spanish is due to a poor education it is due to the different way people view and call things.
There are many words in Spanish that are comon in the language of everyday that seems to elude English speaking people.

I am always amazed by some of the word uneducated people understand in this country as well as amazed by the poorness of their vocabulary.

I asked one of my Tzotzil friend who was selling pot holders on the street what the word was in Tzotzil and I got something like" a little piece of cloth to hold hot pots" a sure sign that the English word will prevail over the Tzotzil expression.


English does not have a word for mujer ...the word woman was "with man" originally, talking about poor vocabulary!!


(This post was edited by Vichil on Oct 18, 2009, 7:10 AM)


Zarcero

Oct 18, 2009, 7:25 AM

Post #22 of 43 (9492 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Trueque

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searchlight = faro. It's the same word used for a lighthouse to guide ships.


Peter


Oct 18, 2009, 7:50 AM

Post #23 of 43 (9485 views)

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Re: [Zarcero] Trueque

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searchlight = faro. It's the same word used for a lighthouse to guide ships.

Maybe the confusion is because FARO is most commonly used to mean a vehicle's headlight, lacking something more specific for supermarkets and prison guardtowers. This month you see plenty of CALAVERAS used in the festivities, but that is also the common Mexican word for a vehicle's taillight assembly.


Maritsa


Oct 18, 2009, 8:44 AM

Post #24 of 43 (9476 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Trueque

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When I first met my boyfriend, working for a landscaping company, I knew nothing of Mexico and no Spanish. The muchachos all seemed very articulate to me and I wondered (not having any idea what Chiapas was like) how much education they had. As I learned Spanish and started living with Timo, I realized that although he spoke well and could read and write, many times I noticed notes he made and I could correct them. For example, he often uses "b" for "v" or writes "ase" for "hace". When we were able to communicate a little better, he told me that he had only attended school for 2 or 3 years. However, he had studied the Bible for over 10 years when he lived in Mexico City. He often talked about politics and when we went to Mexico together he bought a newspaper almost every day. He sometimes knew events that had taken place here in the US before I did, because he actually paid more attention than I did.

When I finally visited Chiapas and his home village, I was amazed by how knowledgable he, his family and friends actually are. They may not have formal education, but they do pay attention and discuss everything. But then life revolves around cooking, cleaning, caring for the children, and so family closeness and communication are an everyday thing. Even though I had asked many questions, it was not until I went to Chiapas that it all began to make sense to me.

Many times I would ask Timo how to say something in Spanish, and when he didn't know, I would look it up in the dictionary. So we both learned some Spanish together! We would also have conversations about the Presidents and the history of Mexico, which were pretty interesting. I would tell him about a book I had read or look something up on the internet and we would discuss it for hours. He was born in 1943, so he would tell me things such as what Mexico was like under different presidentes, or what happened when he was living in the DF when the earthquake hit in 1985.

I'm really going to miss that guy!! He has definitely changed my life and my way of thinking.


Peter


Oct 18, 2009, 9:36 AM

Post #25 of 43 (9474 views)

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Re: [Maritsa] Trueque

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... often uses "b" for "v" or writes "ase" for "hace"...


My girlfriend the same, though with a few more years of school. We send text messages to communicate by phone because I have difficulty hearing Spanish and the difficulty is intensified over the phone when visual cues are absent. To let me know she is on her way home she will tell me "lla boy" and some of the messages she sends I must to read aloud to myself to understand what she is saying. I read Spanish well, many books, novels, newspapers, etc., to increase my vocabulary, and she knows my spelling is better than hers.

Some of my Mexican friends check with me for spelling if they are doing something important and want to be correct. When writing they will tell me a word and ask, "... es con 'beh' vaca o 'beh' burro?"

It seems odd that I can barely keep up with easy conversation yet am considered the local authority for correct spelling.
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