Working in Guadalajara- input please!

Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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Hello.

This is my first post in the forum and while I have read some interesting comments about the Mexican educational system, I have some pointed questions about this one area in particular.

About me: I am a 38 year old Caucasian male, never married, no kids. I have a MA in something Poli Sci and have received word that I am a serious contender for a contract with PrepaTec at ITESM-Guadalajara. I can find nothing substantial on Google about the institution as most of the things in English quote Wikipedia (a fantastic marketing tool, let's leave it at that) and it appears to be awash in self-aggrandizing propaganda. (I mean self-promotion, really!) Unfortunately, my Spanish is still fairly rudimentary. This is one of the motivating factors for accepting this position- I will get out of the campo and meet some educated people.

I would like to hear about the area near the campus and about the school itself. It seems a number of the active forum members are seasoned educators and long-time residents. I am open to the good, the bad, the ugly and the scandalous. This is not my first experience with Latin America; I know of one 'educator' at a prestigious private school who photoshopped my diploma to get a job while I was asleep, for example. (Given the fact that he is the most effective instructor in that specialty and the paper was the only thing preventing him from being hired, I have few complaints.) I am aware of the differences between US/Canadian institutions and the rest of the world.

Specific areas I'd like to hear about include the Prepa Tec concept itself, the quality (and motivation) of the students, areas near the school, opportunities for socializing... that sort of thing. Also, how much money should I be making? is $1,000USD (in MXP) adequate? Is $2,000USD is more appropriate? Do I need more?

I would like to thank all contributors in advance.

-r

edit- spelling error corrected. I use five languages regularly,all of which use alternative spellings of words. Practical advice welcomed.

(This post was edited by homeless_vagabond on Oct 15, 2009, 8:35 PM)

Oct 16, 2009, 6:45 AM

Post #2 of 15 (7223 views)

Re: [homeless_vagabond] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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The campus is located on the outskirts of the city. There are buses but I couldn't tell you anything about those. I can't imagine not having a car.

The campus itself is very nice. Top notch facilities all around.

As far as motivation of the students, there are 2 different programs within the prepa, bicultural and bilingual. My kids were enrolled in the bilingual and I think for the most part you'll find it isn't much different than where you come from. The bicultural program tends to be kids of the wealthier and that may be different. These are the snobs. And a lot if not most of them have their futures already assured.

Carron

Oct 16, 2009, 8:47 AM

Post #3 of 15 (7190 views)

Re: [homeless_vagabond] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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Expect closer to $500 US. Most universities don't schedule foreigners for more than 19 hours classroom time per week, which means just under full time benefits. Mexican professors on the other hand are paid not only for classroom hours but for prep time (sitting in the teachers' lounge gossiping) as well. Foreign teachers often work two different jobs plus do some tutoring on the side just to cover expenses. Been there, done that. Didn't get a T-shirt.

Oct 16, 2009, 8:48 AM

Post #4 of 15 (7187 views)

Re: [homeless_vagabond] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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ITESM is good...so say the locals. I haven't taught there but I did visit and it seems a legit institution.

What is prepa-tec? Is this similar to Tec de Mont's prepa? If so then immature young adults come to my mind. Many will want to learn English and take it seriously....for a few weeks. I have no patience for this level and maybe that is because I have little kids at home and I am in that stage with young people. You might be different.

I have taught 3 levels in Mexico.

Elementary kids= Highly motivated and my favorite except for all the grading. They weigh you down with too many kids at once. Still, elem. kids are my favorite in Mexico...while adults are my fav in USA.

High school age= Not a motivated bunch when it comes to books in general and a waste of my time. Same about grading as elem. kids. TOO MUCH grading and TOO MANY students at once.

Adults = motivated but distracted with work issues and bug me with this urgency of theirs to acquire the language. I like them, but the kids are more fun.

That is just me...

Pay: for university I still do not understand how they come up with pay. Every school has something different. I was making $17 USD an hour teaching at Tec one year....then the next year they lowered every instructor's pay to $9 usd an hour and I quit. Looking back though, $9 USD per hour wasn't so bad. Others snatched up our jobs with urgency (three of us quit at the same time due to the pay decrease)

Another University flat out offered $1000 usd a month...and I would go with that because it was written in ink and more secure. Get a tiny apt for $100US (and YES they do exist though I know many here will say they don't). We rented a house in Cholula for $250 USD in 2007 and everyone said it wouldn't be possible. Internet was included in that price. So just look. With a cheap apt. and 1000usd...you will be fine if you can manage your money. Try to get an apt close to the school though to cut down travel time in case you have to take micros or taxi. With the house in Cholula, I walked to the univ everyday and was so glad for not having to keep up gas expense.

Another univ offered 1.5 of some pay (???) for each .5 hours you worked and I never got paid from that "FAMOUS" Univ everyone bragged about. (Don't worry, it wasn't ITESM or even a govt. school). Be careful of the pay explanations that you can't understand. They throw them out often.

I think $1000USD per month is reasonable. I would teach 6-8 hours a day for that. Do not be offended when you are offered only $300 USD. This is common and simply not the school for you (er.. me).
Ask what they have to offer. Be direct because you will be low balled if you let them talk you into a "this possibility" or "that possibility". I have been through it so many times and here is what I have learned to say....what are you offering ME? Not, what are you going to pay me...because then you might miss out on some neat benefits. And if I don't like the offer, I tell them. I usually hear back once more for a counteroffer. If I still don't like it, I say so. I don't usually hear back a 3rd time (guess I'm not good at this). BUT...you gotta be happy with what you get. Let them low ball you and you will be cursing yourself as you wake up at 6am every morning and eat another tortilla with queso because that is all you can afford and then come home after a full days work with only having made $6 bucks for the day. I have had some pitiful offers and I never took them. I have had some decent offers that won't make us rich...and was very happy with them.

Good luck.

(This post was edited by TlxcalaClaudia on Oct 16, 2009, 8:52 AM)

Oct 16, 2009, 9:35 AM

Post #5 of 15 (7157 views)

Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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In Reply To

What is prepa-tec? Is this similar to Tec de Mont's prepa? If so then immature young adults come to my mind. Many will want to learn English and take it seriously....for a few weeks.

Yes it is the Tec's high school.

If you read the prior posts you will see I mention 2 different programs, bi-cultural and bi-lingual. Most of the students at Tec already speak fairly good English, in fact many are completely fluent. My kids were enrolled in the bi-lingual program. All incoming students take a placement test for English regardless of which program they enter. Depending on their level of fluency they recieve English language classes. The least proficient will be taught English from the very first semester. Otheres in the second or third semesters. I believe that beginning in the fourth semester all students should be on the same level and all will have English classes. This is on top of other having other subjects taught in English.

Most of the students attended private bi-lingual colegios since they started grade school. Many if not most have also traveled extensively and have had ample opportunities to practice English. If there is one thing these kids are motivated to learn it is English.

I don't know what TOEFL score the students must achieve to graduate but I do know they must reach a certain level.

Oct 16, 2009, 10:42 AM

Post #6 of 15 (7141 views)

Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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I know what you are saying is true for your area.
There is no bi-cultural route at the Tec in Pachuca and if they say there is, it isn't true. This USED to be the case for The American School in Pachuca and that is another story of how that isn't true there anymore though they love to talk about how The American School (and soccer) were started by the English miners.

Bilingual classes at Tec (Pachuca) are almost always with with Mexican teachers (I assume because they had SEP credentials). I taught grad students there...and skills were not excellent but then again, Pachuca doesn't have as many expats.

The Tec prepa teens would sometimes be placed in my Saturday class IF they were "advanced for their class" ...none ever finished. Speaking skills were nonexistent with every single one of them and they were marched back to their prepa side.

But I don't mean to get off topic from the ITESM prepa. The point I am making is to the original poster to not let yourself be low balled. Get that salary you need to live on (and I do think asking more than $1000 usd is unusual especially for a govt. university). I met expat teachers/instructors making $500usd - $800 usd and they did not stay long because they couldn't afford it. The schools love it if you offer to make a 2 yr commitment though, so they might go for the $1000usd a little easier with that.

(This post was edited by TlxcalaClaudia on Oct 16, 2009, 10:45 AM)

gpkgto

Oct 16, 2009, 11:05 AM

Post #7 of 15 (7132 views)

Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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At TEC here in Irapuato I had a contract that said what I would be paid for the entire semester--and I had to have a new contract each semester. At least 80% of the teachers here work under contract, i.e., no tenure, no employee benefits under Mexican law, no union issues. Anyway, I got 120 pesos an hour--but luckily I wasn't really supporting myself on my pay. A friend had two classes of about 20 students and had to make computer entries EVERY day re: attendance, homework, etc. It took a lot of time--and he got no pay for this extra time. TEC also has a LOT of required in-house training seminars--also without pay, and sometimes held on Saturdays.

Oct 16, 2009, 11:30 AM

Post #8 of 15 (7121 views)

Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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I'm having a hard time here with some of your comments. For example what does the amount of expats in the Guadalajara area have to do Prepa Tec?

And why do say "for a government school" when talking of salary?

Oct 16, 2009, 2:50 PM

Post #9 of 15 (7083 views)

Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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Again...I am talking about MY experience. Not yours, don't care. This is what I experienced.

Oct 16, 2009, 3:04 PM

Post #10 of 15 (7074 views)

Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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I still don't understand what expats in Guadalajara and government school salaries have to do with anything. Especially the OP.

Oct 16, 2009, 3:09 PM

Post #11 of 15 (7075 views)

Re: [gpkisner] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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gpkisner-
I saw a LOT of that in Hidalgo and Puebla (no benefits, no tenure etc...). That was the norm. Oh the computer time was a nightmare. I had to do this on my own computer at home because "they" couldn't get me a login at the university which was one of those things I wish I knew about BEFORE taking the job ( S L O W to help the newbies.) These are annoyances that eat at your time and make the job not worth it. Another good point for the original poster.

I was reprimanded in week one for not having my roster printed. This school refused to print them for us. That was up to us but the HR dept. didn't turn in my paperwork to tech to get me my ID number to be able to access e-rosters until week 4...and of course I was pressured each week by my dept. chair. She wanted me to go to tech each day after class to ask if my ID was ready yet. She could have printed them out for me but said she was too busy. They were hateful to us new instructors. Seasoned instructors didn't want to lend a hand. I failed to see how this was my fault, but I was treated in such a manner.

$120 pesos an hour wasn't bad (unless today) but yeh, kinda hard to live on that because often they keep you UNDER hours so to not have to pay benefits.

Oct 16, 2009, 3:27 PM

Post #12 of 15 (7065 views)

Re: [Manuel Dexterity] Working in Guadalajara- input please!

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Ok, I get that you are asking for more info, but I hate getting into debates on these boards. I just want to express what I experienced without someone telling me my point isn't valid which is so often the case on these boards the minute someone tries to be helpful (yes, I'm jaded).

Private schools pay more while govt. schools less in my experience. Govt. schools have more hoops to jump through and gladly cram more work/projects/students on you, but you get typical national benefits.

Private schools *MIGHT* pay more and might be able to offer some benefits, but they will try to squeeze you out of most benefits. For example: One university, private, would not give us expat instructors IMSS (I have curp and an IMSS number) and they were able to do that by keeping us under a certain amount of hours and forced me to get my own accountant to pay my own taxes (like self employed). The problem I had with this was that this tactic was NOT explained until I was pushed through HR AFTER starting the job. It is hard to walk out on a group of students when you have started teaching. I ate my expenses that term and luckily had other income to live off because the pay wasn't as promised.

Lack of expats leaves to a lot of mispronunciation and spotty grammar unless you can practice English speaking skills with a native English speaker. My advanced Tec students had practically NO speaking skills in English due to never being around a native English speaker (whom I refer to as expat though I realize you could interpret this as a person from ANY COUNTRY... I am speaking of English Speaking expats). Where I teach now (back in USA) I have students from Africa who have excellent English writing skills but because of living in a village with hardly any English speakers, they struggle...and yet they were schooled in a British system but by non-native English speaking teachers. That is all I was getting at there.
More expats = more opportunity to practice the language of that expat.

Ok, last post for me on this thread because I have gotten way off topic from what the OP wanted.

homeless_vagabond

Oct 16, 2009, 3:29 PM

Post #13 of 15 (7062 views)

Thank you to all participants

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Dear All,

Thank you for all of your responses. It is refreshing to learn that my experience with Latin bureaucracy was no different than many of yours. I have learned the hard way that the best way to accomplish this is by making friends with the people in the various departments with whom I must deal.

If you have more information regarding the social climate towards foreigners who are new to Guadalajara (and Mexico) I would welcome them. Of particular interest are the non-compensated 'evening activities' and the extent to which staff are expected to mingle outside the office.

When I taught in Europe, the administration made many promises to help new staff 'settle in', but upon arrival, it was limited to making sure we had a working cell phone (so they could call us in to work early) and knew where to find a shop (so we could eat) and the office (so we could come to work) from where we were staying. I would prefer to avoid a repeat experience.

My questions regarding salary are important because costs differ across the country. In the Russian Federation, for example, a teacher's salary of US$600 is not uncommon. In Moscow, you would starve on that amount, even if your flat was provided free of charge. I am trying to gauge expenses (light meals, a coffee, rent for a small flat, a glass of wine) in the area immediately surrounding the school. Walking distance, assuming it is not an island of civilization in the middle of a large slum, would be ideal. Driving can be a nightmare; parking can be worse.

Again, thanks to all who responded. I hope you have a fantastic weekend.

Oct 16, 2009, 4:06 PM

Post #14 of 15 (7047 views)

Re: [homeless_vagabond] Thank you to all participants

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The campus in Guadalajara IS an island but not in the middle of a slum. More like on the edge of an industrial area with some newer upscale gated communities nearby and some not so desireable areas scattered amongst them. I really wouldn't consider it within walking distance of any neighborhood you may consider attractive.

One thing that is not a problem is parking. The campus has 2 large secure lots for staff and students.

We live in Providencia, a middle-class area of Guadalajara, about a 20 minute drive from the Tec campus. There are a lot of apartments in the area that rent from 4000 pesos for something a little rough to 6-7000 pesos for something decent.

Marlene

Oct 16, 2009, 9:28 PM

Post #15 of 15 (7003 views)