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jerezano

Sep 14, 2009, 7:22 AM

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How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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Hello All:

In a thread which I can't find now (I hope our moderator will move this to that thread) the question was raised as to how Mexicans refer to our host country in different ways, i.e., México, República, Unión, etc. It has been suggested that the native Mexican population never uses the word México as the name of the country as a whole; that México is reserved to refer to México City only.

To clarify matters I went through part of today's (13 September 2009) issue of the Sol de Zacatecas, one of the national chain of many OEM daily newspapers.

Here is part of what I found:

Front page: Lead article from the II Informe of the mayor of Zacatecas City (always referred to as Zacatecas) the analysis by Fátima Ibarra stated:: "Al igual que el Presidente de México, Felipe Calderón, él [Mayor of Zacatecas], dijo…." So, here the reporter refers to the country as México.
Page 4A: Article by Jorge Mirando Castro: "Hay afirmaciones que en nuestro país.... Here as nuestro país.
...una concepción electoral de un México y un Zacatecas.... Here as México.
"nuestro país" used three times more in the article.
Page 7A: Headline reading "Extrecha alianzas Pro México con gobierno de Zacatecas ." Here as México.
Article by Juan Castro quoting Monreal Ávila as saying, "…Procurador de la República…. Here as República.
Page 1E: México , 13 sep (OEM-Informex) date line which clearly refers to México City as México. A quite common use.
...que no es un problema privativo de México..." which compares our host country to the rest of Latin América. Here as México.
Article by Bertha Becera quoting President Felipe Calderón: "…Hoy queremos un México más democrático…" Here as México and used by its President.
Article by José Luna date lined México [the city] and quoting PRD Senator Carlos Navarrete Raiz who is "Presidente de la Mesa Directiva de la República..." Here as República.
Same article: Navarrete Raiz says: "..rechazado por el Congreso de la Unión." Here as Union.
Same article: NR says again: "…y que México pretende ser la excepción por que en ningún otro país del mundo...." Here as México.

Are these references enough to convince doubters that Mexicans call their country México in addition other names? If not they should start reading the newspapers.

So why can't we guests call it México just as they do?

Have a good day. Jerezano.


(This post was edited by jerezano on Sep 14, 2009, 7:29 AM)



gpkgto

Sep 14, 2009, 7:53 AM

Post #2 of 22 (5594 views)

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Re: [jerezano] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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There are different ways to refer to any country, but "Presidente de la Mesa Directiva de la República" and "Procurador de la República" are official titles, not generic refernces to the country.


esperanza

Sep 14, 2009, 8:03 AM

Post #3 of 22 (5587 views)

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Re: [jerezano] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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Journal-ese (written newspaper Spanish) is very different from casual conversation among friends or on the street.

I believe that I posted on the other thread about this topic that I hear the country of México referred to as la República, el país, and México. For clarity, México is normally used to refer to the Distrito Federal--Mexico City, in English--rather than the country as a whole.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









ken_in_dfw

Sep 14, 2009, 8:45 AM

Post #4 of 22 (5571 views)

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Re: [jerezano] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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For a view from el otro lado, here in the US, Mexicans almost always refer to their country of origin as México or la República Mexicana. I have never heard them call the capital city, "México," preferring instead to say, "Distrito Federal."

Not sure why that changes across the border, as I have heard México used when talking about DF when I am in la República también. Don't know why that is, but language does seem to change subtly across the border.

Ken


Rolly


Sep 14, 2009, 8:53 AM

Post #5 of 22 (5561 views)

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Re: [ken_in_dfw] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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A highway sign near Lerdo says:

GOMEZ PALACIO >
< DURANGO
< MEXICO

Rolly Pirate


Papirex


Sep 14, 2009, 9:07 AM

Post #6 of 22 (5555 views)

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Re: [jerezano] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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A very good post Jerezano. As I said in a previous post, my wifes Mexican family sometimes, but not always, call this nation the Republic, and always refer to México City as simply México. The subject of a conversation tells me whether they are referring to the nation or the city.


My wife and suegra make at least one trip per month to México City to take care of family business. If someone calls for my wife on the phone while she is gone, I always say “Doris esta en México, regresso en X dia (Lunes, Martes, etc.). There is never any confusion, they know I mean México City.


I always feel a little strange when I type “City” after México, but I know that people that do not live in The Republic of México, will not know I am referring to the city and not the nation if I simply type México when I am referring to the city.


I never simply type D. F. when referring to México City as part of the city is in México state and not all of it is in The Federal District. The are many little nuances to learn here.


Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


Papirex


Sep 14, 2009, 9:48 AM

Post #7 of 22 (5536 views)

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Re: [Rolly] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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The few road signs that I have seen in this country indicating that the road will lead to México City always are labeled simply “México” too. I don't remember seeing one that lists the distance, just “México.”


Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


Peter


Sep 14, 2009, 9:53 AM

Post #8 of 22 (5534 views)

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Re: [Papirex] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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I never simply type D. F. when referring to México City as part of the city is in México state and not all of it is in The Federal District. The are many little nuances to learn here.


According to the maps it seems also The Federal District is not entirely Mexico City but a number of towns and cities as well. I suppose when one wants to make himself absolutely clear as to where he is referring a couple extra words could be in order, but usually everyone knows well enough if you are speaking of the country, district, state, or city. If not and it is somehow important enough to the conversation one will ask for clarity.

To my recollection one had made the statement in the original thread, or to the effect, Mexicans never refer to their country as México but reserve that solely for referrences to the city. I'm sure most people would take exception to that statement. One's proximity to the City may have to something to do with the frequency one hears or uses certain referrences, no doubt.

I had read that in the US the state of Washington was originally to be named Columbia but a decision was made to change it because it would be too easily confused with the District of Columbia. Go figure.


Papirex


Sep 14, 2009, 10:24 AM

Post #9 of 22 (5520 views)

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Re: [Peter] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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I don't think ones proximity to México City has much to do with the way Mexicans refer to the city. Many of my wife's family live in México City, but many of them also live all over this country from Cuidad Victoria to Guadalajara and many other places, plus we have good friends that live in Vera Cruz. When any of them are coming to México City for a visit, they will always say they are going to be in México at a certain time.


Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


Peter


Sep 14, 2009, 10:36 AM

Post #10 of 22 (5513 views)

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Re: [Papirex] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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I don't think ones proximity to México City has much to do with the way Mexicans refer to the city. Many of my wife's family live in México City, but many of them also live all over this country from Cuidad Victoria to Guadalajara and many other places, plus we have good friends that live in Vera Cruz. When any of them are coming to México City for a visit, they will always say they are going to be in México at a certain time.


Rex

It seems natural to assume if one is already in the country then it is the city they are going to be in to visit.


(This post was edited by Peter on Sep 14, 2009, 10:46 AM)


Peter


Sep 14, 2009, 11:24 AM

Post #11 of 22 (5499 views)

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Re: [Papirex] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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I don't think ones proximity to México City has much to do with the way Mexicans refer to the city. Many of my wife's family live in México City, but many of them also live all over this country from Cuidad Victoria to Guadalajara and many other places, plus we have good friends that live in Vera Cruz. When any of them are coming to México City for a visit, they will always say they are going to be in México at a certain time.


Rex


I wouldn't have thought I needed to clarify, but... A person living in Hermosillo that was not known to have friends and family in Mexico City or the State of Mexico may not necessarily be assumed his general referrences to Mexico, as other than a destination, would easily be the country if it was not contextually evident to the contrary.

On the other hand, a person living in close proximity to Mexico City, such as yourself in Cuernavaca, might be more often referring to the City than the country because it is much more likely he would have business there than the person in Sonora.

A person known to have family and friends in Toluca, Valle de Bravo, and Tejupilco might speak of visiting Mexico and his close friends might correctly assume he was speaking of the State of Mexico.

I could be wrong, as I am about so many things, but it seems evident that a person living in close proximity to the great city, it would play a large part in how his references are generally understood or the clarifications he would have to make, given that sometimes a Mexican citizen does indeed at times refer to his country as México as well.

A Mexican citizen living in San Diego, California who might tell a co-worker he was going Mexico for a little while may probably be understood to mean he was going down to Baja for a couple days.


(This post was edited by Peter on Sep 14, 2009, 11:27 AM)


Manuel Dexterity

Sep 14, 2009, 11:42 AM

Post #12 of 22 (5491 views)

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Re: [Peter] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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Como la república no hay dos!! (popular saying, heard almost daily sometimes with sarcasm)


La república! La república! La república! (chant by local futbol fans during matches by the seleccion!!!)


La república! linda y querida! (popular song)


La Isla


Sep 14, 2009, 1:05 PM

Post #13 of 22 (5466 views)

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Re: [Tio Copas] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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La república! linda y querida! (popular song)


I've never heard that version of that line from the famous song "México Lindo y Querido". Here are the lyrics:

Voz de la guitarra mía,
al despertar la mañana,
quiero cantar la alegría
de mi tierra mexicana.

Yo le canto a sus volcanes,
a sus praderas y flores,
que son como talismanes
del amor de mi amores.

México lindo y querido,
si muero lejos de ti,
que digan que estoy dormido
y que me traigan aquí.

Que digan que estoy dormido
y que me traigan aquí,
México lindo y querido,
si muero lejos de ti.

Que me entierren en la sierra,
al pie de los magueyales
y que me cubra la tierra,
que es cuna de hombre cabales.

Voz de la guitarra mía,
al despertar la mañana,
quiero cantar la alegría
de mi tierra mexicana.


Manuel Dexterity

Sep 14, 2009, 1:20 PM

Post #14 of 22 (5464 views)

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Re: [La Isla] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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You have never heard that line???? You must not have been listening!

How about this one?

Viva la república! Viva América! La tierra bendita de dios!

Or perhaps:

"La república en la piel" by Luis Miguel


mazbook1


Sep 14, 2009, 7:18 PM

Post #15 of 22 (5421 views)

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Re: [jerezano] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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jerezano, In Spanish, between two Mexicans, the country is la Republica, el país or nuestro paíz, regardless of the distance from Mexico City. In Spanish, between two Mexicans, D.F. OR greater Mexico City is normally referred to as México or la Capital. I have never heard the country referred to as México by any of my rather large, extended Mexican family or their compadres/comadres.

When Mexicans are talking to gringos, whether in the U.S. or la Republica they "tend" to use México for the country and either D.F. OR Ciudad de México or Mexico City, depending on their level of English competence (unless speaking Spanish). Even though I speak passable Spanish, I'm obviously not a native born speaker or a Mexican to folks who don't know me (although I am Mexican now). With them I rarely hear the country referred to as anything BUT México whether we're speaking Spanish or English.


jerezano

Sep 15, 2009, 9:29 AM

Post #16 of 22 (5356 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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Hello all:

mazbook1 said:>>>>jerezano, In Spanish, between two Mexicans, the country is la Republica, el país or nuestro paíz, regardless of the distance from Mexico City.<<<

I would be interested in knowing where mazbook1 lives and the level of education of her extended family and friends.

In 20 years here in Jerez, Zacatecas with many Mexican friends who discuss politics among themselves and economic realities and corruption with me (and yes politics!) I have never heard even one say La República when discussing his native country, either with me or with each other. Nuestro país and el país and México are quite common here. I do see La República or República in the newspapers from time to time. México all the time.

It isn't strange that customs and speech vary vary within different parts of the country and different occupations. I admit that here in Zacatecas the population is mostly rural and unfortunately mostly uneducated with many not even graduating from elementary school. But some of my friends, including my best Mexican friend ( a university graduate) whose wife, unfortunately, cannot read--nor does she seem to want to-- always say México for the country as well as México for the city. No problem, context will always tell me which they mean.

I just finished reading the September issue of "Contenido" which is a monthly magazine published in Mexico City for national distribution. The authors are always aware that they must be clear in their writing because of different regional biases and always with the hopes that their articles will be picked up and distributed internationally.

In an interview with the actor Luis Felipe Tovar (67 movies and several telenovelas) he and the interviewer (both Mexicans) are very careful to speak of the country as México and Mexico City as the Ciudad de México. Twice they do refer to the D.F.

In another example, in an article about the Crises of 1810 and 1910 in relation to the upcoming bicentennial celebration of 2010, the author, José Carreño Carlón, uses the words México, Mexicano, and Mexicana ONLY to refer to the country and its people. He mentions México independiente three times and the others several times more. Not once in the article does he mention Mexico City by any name. After all he is talking about the country as a whole. Is this a Mexican speaking to other Mexicans or not?

Esperanza is right. Journalism and ordinary conversations are not the same. Nor are the customs and the lexicon of all regions the same.

The good thing about all this is that our posters are showing that they are very aware of their host country, its people, and the region in which they live. It seems to me that too many of us don't try to enter "into the spirit of the country."

Hasta pronto. jerezano.


(This post was edited by jerezano on Sep 15, 2009, 11:28 AM)


gpkgto

Sep 15, 2009, 10:53 AM

Post #17 of 22 (5338 views)

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Re: [jerezano] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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"The good thing about all this is that our posters are showing that they are very aware of their host country, its people, and the region in which they live. It seems to me that too many of us don't try to enter "into the spirit of the country." "

Or does it indicate the opposite--that many who live here assume that Mexico is very homogenous and that their individual, local experience can be extrapolated to the entire country? I have found this to be the situation when I meet expats who live in other parts of Mexico. In my opiinion, Mexico is even more diverse than the USA/America/United States/United States of America/US of A.


La Isla


Sep 15, 2009, 11:34 AM

Post #18 of 22 (5326 views)

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Re: [Tio Copas] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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You have never heard that line???? You must not have been listening!


Well, I've been listening to "México lindo y querido" for over 40 years, in both live performances and on recordings, and I've never heard your version of that line. Maybe I should give my ears a good cleaning!


Manuel Dexterity

Sep 15, 2009, 11:43 AM

Post #19 of 22 (5321 views)

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Re: [La Isla] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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You have never heard that line???? You must not have been listening!


Well, I've been listening to "México lindo y querido" for over 40 years, in both live performances and on recordings, and I've never heard your version of that line. Maybe I should give my ears a good cleaning!



Your sarcasm detector needs fine tuning. Of course that line doesn't exist. Nor does "la república" exist in the other examples I posted.


esperanza

Sep 15, 2009, 11:48 AM

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Re: [gpkisner] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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Most of the time when a theoretically new word usage pops into my ears and I say, "I've never heard that," I discover that I simply haven't been paying attention. Usually, once I AM paying attention, I start hearing whatever it is that 'I've never heard,' six times a day from then on--and of course I discover that it's the most common way to say whatever it is that I'd never heard before.

"En cada rinconcito de la república se encuentra una paletería La Michoacana."
"El país entero estuvo pendiente del mexicano quien ultimamente se lanzó al espacio."
"La crísis económica tocó a muchos negocios en la república."
"Voy al DF a ver a un médico especialista en enfermedades de la piel."
"Aunque estudio en la UNAM, no me gusta vivir en México."


http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









mazbook1


Sep 16, 2009, 5:04 PM

Post #21 of 22 (5245 views)

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Re: [jerezano] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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jerezano, First of all, mazbook1 is he, not she and only mazbook1 because Mexconnect was screwed up and for some reason wouldn't allow me to use my "real" handle, mazbook. Secondly, I live in Mazatlán and my extended Mexican family is scattered all over the place from Tijuana to México, but the family center is considered Los Mochis, Sinaloa—definitely norteño. The educational level of my extended family ranges from primary school literate (only a few) to university level (only a few) with the great majority somewhere in the secondary school to preparatory school level.

And yes, you are correct about location. Spanish usage in la república varies greatly depending on where you are located. When discussions of this sort come up on a general all-of-the-country forum such as this, we should all identify our regions. I'm certainly guilty of generalizing my insights into the language and culture from what I know well from my area and family and I'm certain others are to.

Also, I believe that this sort of discussion does indicate that many of the expats really are interested in integrating into their new country…and that is good!

Everyone should remember that at the time of the grito, New Spain was centered around and ruled by those in la ciudad de México in the valle de México in the intendencia de México and THAT is what independence was all about…taking control of the intendencia of México away from the Spaniards. La República didn't exist until several years after the independence from Spain was achieved. That's why you only hear ¡Viva México! when the independence is celebrated and not ¡Viva la República!


Manuel Dexterity

Sep 16, 2009, 5:55 PM

Post #22 of 22 (5228 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] How do Mexicans refer to our host country?

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Everyone should remember that at the time of the grito, New Spain was centered around and ruled by those in la ciudad de México in the valle de México in the intendencia de México and THAT is what independence was all about&#8230;taking control of the intendencia of México away from the Spaniards. La República didn't exist until several years after the independence from Spain was achieved. That's why you only hear ¡Viva México! when the independence is celebrated and not ¡Viva la República!


They don't cite the original grito, which didn't include the word México either. Hidalgo invoked la Virgen de Guadalupe amongst other vivas. She got left out years ago. So did "Viva América".

And Porfirio Díaz did use "Viva la república" en the Centennial celebration of Independence.


(This post was edited by Tio Copas on Sep 16, 2009, 5:59 PM)
 
 
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