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bosshawg

Aug 18, 2009, 9:11 AM

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trying to decide whether or not to move...

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I just had this link sent to me by a friend living in Morelia, she found it online and I wanted to see if you agree... http://reasonsnottoliveinmexico.blogspot.com/

Thanks,
Vicky


(This post was edited by DavidMcL on Aug 22, 2009, 9:40 AM)



BajaGringo


Aug 18, 2009, 10:11 AM

Post #2 of 22 (6160 views)

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Re: [bosshawg] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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I read his post - a good reminder of why I say Mexico is not for everybody. He lists his reasons and makes his case for wanting to move and I respect his right to do so. Each and every one of us have our own "buttons" that can be pushed and you need to take the time to make an honest assessment of why you want to be and whether it would be a good fit or not. I suggest to everybody to live here for awhile before you buy to be able to make an honest evaluation.

I even created a checklist if you are thinking about moving south of the border.

Funny thing is that I can make a list of reasons why I would never move back north of the border but that is for another thread...

YMMV


Our House Building Project in Mexico...
Lomas de San Martin
Loving Life on the Baja Peninsula


(This post was edited by BajaGringo on Aug 18, 2009, 10:12 AM)


esperanza

Aug 18, 2009, 10:35 AM

Post #3 of 22 (6152 views)

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Re: [bosshawg] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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The author of that blog, Robert B., describes a few things that are sometimes true in Mexico. They're situations that bother him immensely. He apparently finds them intolerable. Here's another point of view.

1) Treatment of animals. This situation is changing. Like your friend, I also live in Morelia. I have lived in several other Mexican cities and towns. There are far fewer stray dogs in Mexico than there were in years gone by. Morelia, for example, has recently opened (and is promoting) its animal protection organization. The majority of people in Mexico have traditionally kept dogs for protection and work, not as pets, but that too is changing. In the cities, 'purse dogs' are relatively common, I frequently see people with purebred pet dogs on leashes, and veterinarians--for animal medical care, grooming, and pet food/toy/bed/etc sales--are two to a block!

2) Noise. Mexico is, without question, a noisy country. As an acquaintance says, "If you need peace and quiet, choose a different country!" On the other hand, the neighborhood where I live in Morelia is peaceful, quiet, and the neighbors all respect one another's privacy--almost too much. It's been difficult to meet our neighbors, which is an unusual situation for Mexico.

3) Being a pedestrian. I haven't experienced this problem in the way that he has. It might be that drivers are more forgiving of a female pedestrian. On the other hand, in some countries the law is that the pedestrian has the right of way. In Mexico, that's not generally the case.

4) Promiscuity. This guy Robert B. and I know very different age groups of people. What he says may be true for the 20-and-30-somethings, but later in life, I think not. On the other hand, the 'casa chica' mentality among Mexican men still exists: this means that a man has a wife and children, but he also has a mistress whom he supports and with whom he may or may not have children.

5) Drunk driving. Tell me a country where this doesn't exist.

6) Unreliability. Well...it takes a while to get used to what Robert B. is talking about. Time and personal space are different here. Either you can get used to it, or you can't.

It seems to me that most of Robert B.'s problems in Mexico come from his own levels of tolerance for cultural differences. It's a good idea for him to move elsewhere.

Your experiences in Mexico--and your feelings about your experiences--may vary greatly from his. Mexico may be ideal for you. You may experience other things that make you crazy here and what bothers Robert B. may not bother you at all.




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Zorba

Aug 18, 2009, 6:04 PM

Post #4 of 22 (6094 views)

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Re: [esperanza] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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A lot of what he says is true. Mexico is not for him and that is perfectly fine. I have found that certain countries match up well or poorly with certain personalities. He may not enjoy Mexico, but he may love China. A different person may hate China, but love Mexico. It depends.

Having said that, I sometimes wondered to myself why I chose Mexico when there were so many other cheap countries to choose from. Well, when you look at it carefully, most all developing countries have the same problems this guy is talking about. So, for me, it may as well be Mexico and not the Philippines,Thailand, or wherever because I speak the language and it is closer to home.

So, this guy probably would have the same complaints in any other developing country and should limit his choices to more developed countries where he won't encounter such things. He will pay a pretty penny for it though. There is a reason why developing countries are cheap to live in and developed countries are expensive.


Peter


Aug 19, 2009, 4:29 AM

Post #5 of 22 (6031 views)

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Re: [bosshawg] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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While he makes his case for why he does not want to continue to live here he continues to present points for why it may be an ideal place for another to want to spend the rest of their life here; one of the safest places he's ever been, freest country, laissez-faire, natural beauty, attractions, etc.

I would not attempt to dispute the realities he has encountered and finds intolerable but it is fair to keep in mind he lives in Guadalajara, Mexico's second largest city. No doubt his experiences would be different living in Ajijic, San Miguel de Allende, or Patzcuaro.

Other things that bother him are probably the cultural differences and difference in attitude of the people. I certainly agree it is different living here than in the USA. While there are indeed trade-offs living in one place or another the few years I have lived here in Mexico have convinced me I would find living in the US intolerable now and certainly worth the few concessions I make to live here. To each his own.


BajaGringo


Aug 19, 2009, 11:08 AM

Post #6 of 22 (5959 views)

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Re: [Peter] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Peter - you touch on an important point here that I think should be mentioned in the discussion. I have found something in common that is shared by the vast majority of folks who live the expat lifestyle in Mexico and truly enjoy it. They make it a point to focus on what they enjoy about Mexico and not making constant comparisons. Mexico is different and if you focus on what you miss from back home you will probably want to go back home eventually.

And you should.

As an alternative, open your mind and allow yourself to adapt to a new country, people, language and cultural experience. You might even learn a thing or two along the way. God forbid, it might even change your mind about a few concepts/ideas that you previously held, set in stone...


Our House Building Project in Mexico...
Lomas de San Martin
Loving Life on the Baja Peninsula


(This post was edited by BajaGringo on Aug 19, 2009, 2:12 PM)


Peter


Aug 19, 2009, 1:20 PM

Post #7 of 22 (5933 views)

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Re: [BajaGringo] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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So right you are, focus and perspective. Living in a society with more personal freedom requires more tolerance for the behavior of others. All night fiestas with music blasting is not something I "tolerate," rather, to me it is the sound of freedom. And I know I'm welcome to that party also.

An ex-pat's life is is somewhat of a contradiction to "normal values." In school I was the antithesis of athletic and never much of a sports fan. One of the school jocks later was my insurance agent and another was a department store manager. One day after work I happened to run into both of them. I had started work at the test range early that morning and before noon had helicoptered out to a slowly sinking target ship to retrieve cameras after a missile test. Two hours later I was on a tugboat headed back into port with my cameras, later to shop a little and visit my insurance agent. I remember a little reality check that evening but had no idea I'd be retired here in Mexico by my early fifties.

That reality check came that evening when after declining to do something dangerously stupid my girlfriend told me, "Your problem is you never take chances!" I laughed, thought of those jocks, their lives, mine, then told her, "I do dangerous things safely. You do safe things dangerously."

I'm not sure how you could tie that in neatly to this discussion but I think it demonstrates an example of the mindset required.


tashby


Aug 21, 2009, 2:19 PM

Post #8 of 22 (5790 views)

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Re: [bosshawg] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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I'm going to go out on a psycho-babble limb and suggest that, based on his list, RobertB has some serious control issues.

Bad fit that.


richmx2


Aug 21, 2009, 7:00 PM

Post #9 of 22 (5743 views)

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Re: [BajaGringo] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Why I live in Mexico:

1) Treatment of humans. This situation is changing for the worse, with the imposition of the U.S. backed "war on drugs", but for the most part, "Respect for the rights of others," is more than a dusty phrase from history. From the euphemistic name for penitentiaries ("Centers for Social Readaption") to workers' cooperative savings institutions like the tandas, the Mexicans treat their fellow man (and woman) as fully functional human beings, worthy of respect and expecting them to uphold the honor and dignity of their fellow persons.

2) A joyful Noise. Mexico is, without question, a noisy country, though less so than many. People accept the rights of their neighbors to enjoy their lives, and unlike the United States, do no consider it an assault that others are happy, singing or playing cards late a night.

3) Being a pedestrian. One does not need an automobile, and the commercial culture is built on a human scale. When a foreign (U.S.) builder developed a housing subdivision outside Mexico City a few years ago, the lack of commercial and social activities nearly destroyed the development. Go into any colonia anywhere in Mexico, and you find not only private businesses, but a church and schools. This is planning for the human, not the car.

4) Sexual honesty. One needs to mention that the Mexican constitution guarantees equality before the law regardless of gender or sexual orientation. Sexism and homophobia certainly exist, but as a social contract, it's much further than the United States can muster. One's sexuality is largely one's own affair ("the rights of others," again) and -- given the lip service paid to "fidelity" in the United States -- land of serial monogamy -- at least no one is pretending. In the United States we pretend porn is not one of the nation's largest industries. In Mexico, you can buy porn in front of the Palacio Nacional at any newsstand, and no one says boo about it.

5) Driving. On my way down to Mazatlan from west Texas, my old Volvo started to die. Outside Ojinaga, a guy named Chito stopped in his "held together with baling wire and spit" Toyota pickup... couldn't figure out the problem, went home, got his brother's big truck, came back, towed me into Ojinaga, then took me to a motel... and the next morning came to get me, took me to his mom's house for breakfast, then to his cousin Martin's who had made a part out of an old Ford truck to get the car running again... for about 30 USD. The Volvo has since "disappeared" -- by my choice -- and I travel by bus. Something neither shameful nor unusual in this country, nor the hellish experience it is in the United States when one must leave the driving to someone else.

6) Reliability. I can rely on walking into a shop, market, restaurant and not being shot by a crazed junkie. I can walk down almost any street in Mexico, day or night, and -- if this 50+ year old middle-class guy sees a bunch of teenage boys hanging out -- has no need to cross the street. I can rely on a polite and respectful "buenos noches, Senor", not a whap up the side of the head. I can rely on alternatives being found for inconveniences. I can rely -- if I remember my manners -- on people remembering their, and treating me with respect and dignity.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

(This post was edited by DavidMcL on Aug 22, 2009, 9:40 AM)


ken_in_dfw

Aug 21, 2009, 7:12 PM

Post #10 of 22 (5729 views)

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Re: [richmx2] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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This is one of those posts that makes me wish Mexconnect had "mojo" or some other way of recommending the comment. Brilliant explanation of what makes Mexico work. Couldn't agree more.

Ken


BajaGringo


Aug 21, 2009, 7:58 PM

Post #11 of 22 (5713 views)

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Re: [richmx2] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Great post. I share your sentiments...


Our House Building Project in Mexico...
Lomas de San Martin
Loving Life on the Baja Peninsula


Oscar2

Aug 21, 2009, 8:11 PM

Post #12 of 22 (5709 views)

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Re: [richmx2] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Good post, well said, gracias.


Peter


Aug 22, 2009, 7:42 AM

Post #13 of 22 (5652 views)

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Re: [richmx2] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Great post. On every point I have observed or experienced something similar. Car troubles? Not a problem. And public transportation here is excellent. I repeat, I now find it intolerable being in the US after living here. Thanks.


mazbook1


Aug 22, 2009, 1:10 PM

Post #14 of 22 (5585 views)

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Re: [richmx2] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Great post, Rich! All so true. And I have to relate what my cousin in New Mexico was told by a friend of his who was an officer for "la Migra". My cousin asked him how the INS (I don't remember the new initials - ¿ICE?) guys could tell the difference between a Mexican and a Spanish-speaking New Mexican. His friend laughed and told him it was really easy—the Mexicans were polite!


Brian

Aug 22, 2009, 2:01 PM

Post #15 of 22 (5576 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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"Mexicans treat their fellow man (and woman) as fully functional human beings, worthy of respect and expecting them to uphold the honor and dignity of their fellow persons."

I have noticed that all of the comments agreeing with the above have come from male members (no pun intended). My Mexican-American wife has always told me that one of the things she has found bothersome over the years is the tendency of Mexican males to treat women in a less than equal manner. When the opportunity presents, they invariably give more deference and respect to the males in any situation. Also, while it is true that great respect is shown in the form of polite manners, it is also a fact that many Mexicans are inherently suspicious of others particularly those who are not members of their immediate families.

Brian


mazbook1


Aug 22, 2009, 2:05 PM

Post #16 of 22 (5570 views)

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Re: [Brian] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Brian,

You say, "…it is also a fact that many Mexicans are inherently suspicious of others particularly those who are not members of their immediate families."

I would strenuously disagree with this. I don't know where or why you came to believe this, but it just is NOT a true statement.


Brian

Aug 22, 2009, 2:37 PM

Post #17 of 22 (5558 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Everyone's experience and perception is their own. To refine the statement, I should have probably said that many Mexicans are inherently suspicious of other Mexicans outside their own families. Their feelings about gringos are less transparent.

"Chivo pagado, chivo brincado" and "Musica pagada, toca mal son" are axioms which symbolize a cultural mistrust which isn't shared by very many expats living in Mexico. Just saying...


(This post was edited by Brian on Aug 22, 2009, 2:37 PM)


richmx2


Aug 22, 2009, 3:04 PM

Post #18 of 22 (5541 views)

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Re: [Brian] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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I understand what Brian is getting at. When with the family, one is part of the family and all others are outside the family. But, when one is on a bus, one is part of the bus rider family; at work, one is part of the job family; in your neighborhood, you are part of the colonia family.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


TlxcalaClaudia

Aug 22, 2009, 5:35 PM

Post #19 of 22 (5503 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Oh my gosh, I saw this all the time. I immediately related when Brian posted this. What I experienced was that you gotta know someone to "get in" or else you marry in if you really want to be part of the family (and not always treated a guest).


jerezano

Aug 22, 2009, 6:12 PM

Post #20 of 22 (5489 views)

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Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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Hello all:

>>>>>"Mexicans treat their fellow man (and woman) as fully functional human beings, worthy of respect...." <<<<<

I have to weigh in on this. In a social situation this is absolutely correct. Politeness is inherent in the upbringing of children with respect and priority treatment of any person older than he or she.

But this doesn't carry over to government interactions. When dealing with anybody in an official position, no matter the hierarchy or age, that respect of individual rights disappears like smoke. The official does what he/she wants to do. That is the reason Mexicans distrust their own governments so much.

And as mentioned earlier in this discussion Mexicans tend to treat outsiders with suspicion, even if Mexican, although with exquisite politeness.

But the ability of Mexicans to interact with complete strangers of their own race no matter what social level is amazing. Having lived here for 21 years now I recall with what distant politeness I was treated early as compared to my easy acceptance now. Perfect strangers are still extremely polite with me because of my advanced age. But that is no sign that they will interact with me as they do with a perfect stranger who is Mexican. They don't.

jerezano


Peter


Aug 22, 2009, 6:15 PM

Post #21 of 22 (5487 views)

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Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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I agree, very outwardly polite here but there are levels of "inside-ness". And there is racial striation as well. How many "black" gringos do you see here?


mazbook1


Aug 22, 2009, 6:27 PM

Post #22 of 22 (5474 views)

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Re: [jerezano] trying to decide whether or not to move...

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jerezano, I've lived here in México as a "pure" expat, as a "married to a Mexicana" expat and as a Mexican (naturalized) married to a Mexicana.

Differently from you ("Perfect strangers are still extremely polite with me because of my advanced age. But that is no sign that they will interact with me as they do with a perfect stranger who is Mexican. They don't."), I have never seen any difference whatsoever in the way I was treated and am now treated, whether it be "family" or whether it be a stranger (Mexican). Of course, differently from the majority of expats, I have consistently used the respectful "Usted" verb conjugations rather than the familiar "tu" conjugations, and believe me, THAT makes a difference. I show respect for others and they show respect for me. Only since I have married into a Mexican family do I ever use the "tu" verb forms, and even then I still use "Usted" with my suegros (mother- and father-in-law).

I learned from my wife very early on (long before we were married) that MOST Mexicans consider MOST NOB expats to be unberarably rude. Using "Usted" rather than "tu" is just one step (but a big one) toward better acceptance.


(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Aug 22, 2009, 6:29 PM)
 
 
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