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raferguson

Aug 10, 2009, 8:00 AM

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Should vs. Must?

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Both "should" and "must" are translated by "deber". How can I express that distinction in Spanish, or is there an easy way to do that?

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

esperanza

Aug 10, 2009, 8:23 AM

Post #2 of 17 (10518 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Should vs. Must?

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According to the Merriam-Webster, 'should' and 'must' mean exactly the same thing:

Entry Word:shouldFunction:verb Text: to be under necessity or obligation to<you should study harder>
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Entry Word:mustFunction:verb Text: to be under necessity or obligation to <we must be quiet during the performance>
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It's the same in Spanish. "Deber" is the word you use for either, without differentiation.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

mevale

Aug 10, 2009, 9:10 AM

Post #3 of 17 (10505 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Should vs. Must?

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To my ear, “must“ implies a stronger obligation than “should“. I’ve always used different tenses of “deber“ to differentiate between “should“ and “must“ and “ought“. It’s kind of like softening a request using “poder“ using the conditional or the imperfect subjunctive rather than the present indicative. “Puedes“ vs “Podrías“ vs “Pudieras“

Present Indicative
Debes venir mañana. (You must come tomorrow)
Conditional
Deberías venir mañana. (You should come tomorrow)
Imperfect Subjunctive
Debieras venir mañana. (You ought to come tomorrow)

This is how I’ve always differentiated the different levels, but keep in mind, I’m not a native speaker and claim no authority whatsoever.

(This post was edited by willieboy on Aug 10, 2009, 9:10 AM)

esperanza

Aug 10, 2009, 9:29 AM

Post #4 of 17 (10496 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Should vs. Must?

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Just remember that you are speaking Spanish, not English, and the verb 'deber' truly works for both translating both 'should' and 'must' into Spanish. There is no Spanish equivalent word for should, other than deber.

You could say 'tener que', but 'have to' doesn't really make the jump.

Tengo que lavar los trastes.

Tienes que pagar la renta.

Tiene que comer bastante verdura fresca.

Tenemos que comprar otro coche.

Tienen que estudiar mucho para no reprobar sus exámenes.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

La Isla

Aug 10, 2009, 12:46 PM

Post #5 of 17 (10472 views)

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Re: [willieboy] Should vs. Must?

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In Reply To

To my ear, “must“ implies a stronger obligation than “should“.

I agree. I've always taught my students that "should" is used to give advice (You should brush your teeth after every meal.) while "must" is used to give orders, with some sort of punishment to follow if you don't comply (You must pay your taxes, or you'll be in big trouble with the government.).

mevale

Aug 10, 2009, 1:47 PM

Post #6 of 17 (10462 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Should vs. Must?

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It's the same in Spanish. "Deber" is the word you use for either, without differentiation.

Not necessarily. Here in Mexico it's very common to use the Pretérito pluscuamperfecto to express obligation.

(Yo) hubiera estudiado más. (I should have studied more)
Hubieras comido antes de llegar. (You should have eaten before arriving)
Te hubieras quedado en casa para no enfermarte. (You should have stayed at home to avoid getting sick.)

You won't hear this construction in Spain, but it is a very common way of expressing this type of "should" in Mexico.

Another verb for obligation is suponarse.

¿Estuviste en la ciudad? Se suponía que me ibas a llamar para vernos. (You were in the city? You were supposed to call me to meet each other.)

And as Esperanza pointed out, the "tener que" construction is very common for "have to".

esperanza

Aug 10, 2009, 3:11 PM

Post #7 of 17 (10449 views)

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Re: [willieboy] Should vs. Must?

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Willieboy, I respectfully disagree with your definition of the Spanish pluscuamperfecto of haber.

Yes, the English translation of the pluscuamperfecto as you use it is 'should have' or 'must have'. Nevertheless, in Spanish it means 'that (I, you, he, she, we, y'all, they) might have'.

In your second example, I think you mean suponerse. Suponer actually means suppose, or assume.

Se supone que empieza a las nueve. It's supposed to start at nine.
Te suponía en París. I thought (assumed) you were in Paris.

I suppose (no play on words intended) that you could extrapolate into English 'must be' or 'should be' from either of those, but the word suponerse doesn't mean that.

The OP asked for a word in Spanish other than deber that means should or must. That I know of, there isn't one. This is the problem with trying to squeeze Spanish into English, or vice versa. There are times it just refuses to be squoze, as it were.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

BrentB

Aug 10, 2009, 9:47 PM

Post #8 of 17 (10427 views)

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Re: [willieboy] Should vs. Must?

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That usage is common in Jalisco.

brent

Peter

Aug 11, 2009, 6:35 AM

Post #9 of 17 (10415 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Should vs. Must?

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Both "should" and "must" are translated by "deber". How can I express that distinction in Spanish, or is there an easy way to do that?

Richard

You were given a good answer earlier just to have the waters muddied a bit. Using the conditional (or subjunctive) softens the "must" to a "should" for you, the easy way.

Don't worry, the grammar police won't arrest you for using the conditional (or the subjunctive if you really are "hip" with the lingo) to express "should" or "ought to," and the people here in Mexico will understand you well enough.

You have been provided examples already in your second reply. I would have but haven't found a way to make the accents. My old method of using "alt" codes for vowel accents gets me knocked out of this site's word processor. And the grammar police on this board would have a field day if I didn't use them for that.

mevale

Aug 11, 2009, 9:14 AM

Post #10 of 17 (10402 views)

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Re: [Peter] Should vs. Must?

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I would have but haven't found a way to make the accents. My old method of using "alt" codes for vowel accents gets me knocked out of this site's word processor. And the grammar police on this board would have a field day if I didn't use them for that.

If my post requires a lot of special characters I use this site: http://spanish.typeit.org/ and then simply cut and paste to my posts here. I have the same problem as you using the Alt- keys. Another option is to install the virtual Spanish keyboard in Windows, but I've found it easier to simply use the site above.

La Isla

Aug 11, 2009, 9:36 AM

Post #11 of 17 (10394 views)

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Re: [willieboy] Should vs. Must?

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I can place accents on words, even when my keyboard is set up for English. I just hit the [" '] key and then the vowel which requires an accent, and it comes out like this - á . When I'm writing in Spanish, I change over to a Spanish keyboard, so I can type the ñ by hitting the [: ;] key. I'm not a computer whiz, so if I can do this, I think that anyone can!

Papirex

Aug 11, 2009, 10:09 AM

Post #12 of 17 (10392 views)

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Re: [willieboy] Should vs. Must?

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I have found that the easiest way to type the accent marks is to go into the control panel and enable the US English international keyboard in the regional and language section. To type any accent mark, simply press the apostrophe key and any vowel. The appropriate accent will be above the vowel. That is how I always get the accent when I type México.

If you enable it, open your word processor and play with it to learn how everything works. To type the ñ Press the shift key and the tilde key ~ nothing will happen until you press the n key, when you do it in sequence you will get the ñ.

It is simple to learn and use, I don't even think about it anymore. If you are typing in English and want to use a contraction, When you press the apostrophe key, nothing will appear until you press the final letter key, as in don't. You may also press the space bar to have the apostrophe appear if you want it to appear immediately as ' but it is never necessary.

Be sure to designate US English international as your preferred keyboard, and enable the language bar on the taskbar if you use more than one language keyboard. I have also chosen to use the Spanish keyboard, and I can click on the language icon on the taskbar to switch keyboards from the list that pops up. Using the Spanish keyboard is the only way I can get the symbol for degrees as in 70º F. or 21.1º C. Again, open your word processor and play with it to see what you will get.

This may sound like a lot of hassle, it isn't and it is well worth the effort.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

mevale

Aug 11, 2009, 12:37 PM

Post #13 of 17 (10372 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Should vs. Must?

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"Suponerse" of course. Well, at least the conjugation came out as an "er" verb.:>))

You're absolutely correct that sometimes "it refuses to be squoze", and you're correct that my example of "haber" doesn't literally mean "should" in Spanish. But, (in an attempt to salvage my honor:>)), the OP didn't ask for "a word other than deber that means should or must". He asked "How can I express the distinction" and I was trying to think of examples in which,, what we English speakers think of as "should", can be expressed in Spanish. If he had said, "How can I express that I like to dance" the answer could be "Me gusta bailar". Does it mean "I like to dance" in the Spanish version. No. Does it express the meaning. Yes.

I remember years ago coming up against "se me cayó algo" or the "se me olvidó algo" constructions. Talk about a tough squeeze:>))

Anyway, your criticisms are valid, and are taken in the spirit of a good discussion. I think maybe we read the OP a little differently. Salud.

sergiogomez / Moderator

Aug 12, 2009, 12:48 PM

Post #14 of 17 (10332 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Should vs. Must?

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I'm not sure if there's a really easy way to express a should/must distinction with deber. I usually opt to use totally different expressions. So for example, if I want to convince my boyfriend to change the oil in my car before we go on a long drive, I might say,

Deberías cambiar el aceite antes de que nos vayamos
(You should change the oil before we leave.) Using deberías (polite request form) instead of debes (a flat statement) makes the request more like a request or a suggestion that a demand.

On the other hand, if the car has gone 7,000 miles between oil changes and I really want him to change the oil before we leave, I might say,

Tienes que cambiar el aceite porque...blah, blah, blah.
You must / have to / gotta change the oil because... OR

Hace falta cambiar el aceite...
It's necessary to change the oil. Hace falta is an expression that implies a fair amount of urgency, which is why I would put it in the "must" category rather than the "should" category.

mazbook1

Aug 22, 2009, 1:32 PM

Post #15 of 17 (10268 views)

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Re: [sergiogomez] Should vs. Must?

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Thank you, sergiogomez! Every time you post something about Mexican Spanish, I learn something new. I had fallen into the rut of using necesitar para to indicate "must" and neither my Mexican wife, my Mexican kids or any of my extended Mexican family or my Mexican friends had ever corrected me.

I say it was a "rut", as I have heard and understood hace falta and tener que and understood them, but for some reason I keep using necesitar para. I will mend my ways now that you have stated it so succinctly.

Thank you!

Peter

Aug 22, 2009, 6:55 PM

Post #16 of 17 (10254 views)

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Re: [sergiogomez] Should vs. Must?

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For me, to state a need to do, more often I use "hay que..." "Hay que cambiar el aceite."

A bit less emphatic than "hace falta..." perhaps?

zaragemca

Nov 11, 2009, 9:57 AM

Post #17 of 17 (9496 views)

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Re: [Peter] Should vs. Must?

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Greeting, that verbal form is not just Mexican Spanish, it is the correct grammatical forms for those tenses. The 'SHOULD' is used in Spanish as an advise of the way something suppose to be done, deberias, and the 'MUST' is an urgency or order, 'debes de comenzar', etc. The problems is that, (as it also happened in English), those verbal forms are not use in primary school, but in secundary teaching, and some people which have to go out of school, (for many reasons), do not get to know them). There are even more complex forms like, 'HUBIERAS DEBIDO HACERLO', which is something like, 'you should have done it, which is a rarity is somebody use it. Gerry Zaragemca
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