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tashby


Jun 16, 2009, 2:43 PM

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Querer en preterito

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I'm currently studying Spanish using the Warren Hardy textbook/approach. He says that the verb querer changes meaning in the preterite. I'll just quote the text:

"QUERER: (to want) changes to: to try (affirmative) or to refuse (negative). Quise hacerlo = I tried to do it. No quise hacerlo = I refused to do it. Querer in the preterite refers not just to wanting, but wanting and attempting or refusing to attempt a specific act. Quise hacerlo is synonymous with traté de hacerlo."

I've never been comfortable with it. In my English-speaking head, there's a clear distinction between wanting something and trying to attain/achieve it. (e.g. "I wanted to go to Europe so I tried to save enough money but I failed.") I even asked a couple of native speakers about it, but that hasn't cleared it up for me either. I'm still unsure.

Anybody want to weigh in on this one? Do those of you who speak Spanish use querer in the past tense to mean "tried" or "refused to"?

Thanks!

raferguson


Jun 17, 2009, 7:28 AM

Post #2 of 14 (11077 views)

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Re: [tashby] Querer en preterito

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This discussion may be helpful.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=66421

"Quise ir al concerto".

Let's take the equivalent statement in English.

"I wanted to go to the concert."

To me, that may imply that the person wanted to go, but was unable. It might also imply that the person wanted to go to the concert, found some obstacle to going, but perhaps was able to get around the obstacle, and actually attend the concert.

If you attended the concert, why would you say that you wanted to go to the concert, when you could just state that you went to the concert? "Fui al concerto" is short and to the point. If you say "I wanted to go the concert", then you need to continue and explain what happened, which could be a long story. After all, going to the concert implies that you wanted to do it, unless there is a long story about why you attended the concert you did not want to go to.

To me, if you consider how you might say something like that in English, it may address how one might use querer or "Want" in the past tense.

My two cents, we will let the real experts weigh in. ;-)

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

tashby


Jun 17, 2009, 8:25 AM

Post #3 of 14 (11071 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Querer en preterito

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Wow. Thanks for the link to that discussion, Richard. Interesting.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one confused about querer in the preterite. For now, as a beginner, I have a ton of other things to learn that don't involve such subtleties. At this point, my time is probably better spent just focusing on the basics. The gray areas, as delightful as they are, will just have to wait.

In the immortal words of David Sedaris, "Me talk pretty one day."

Thanks.

mevale

Jun 17, 2009, 5:43 PM

Post #4 of 14 (11048 views)

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Re: [tashby] Querer en preterito

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In Reply To
I'm currently studying Spanish using the Warren Hardy textbook/approach. He says that the verb querer changes meaning in the preterite. I'll just quote the text:

"QUERER: (to want) changes to: to try (affirmative) or to refuse (negative). Quise hacerlo = I tried to do it. No quise hacerlo = I refused to do it. Querer in the preterite refers not just to wanting, but wanting and attempting or refusing to attempt a specific act. Quise hacerlo is synonymous with traté de hacerlo."

I've never been comfortable with it. In my English-speaking head, there's a clear distinction between wanting something and trying to attain/achieve it. (e.g. "I wanted to go to Europe so I tried to save enough money but I failed.") I even asked a couple of native speakers about it, but that hasn't cleared it up for me either. I'm still unsure.

Thanks!

In your example "I wanted to go to Europe...." I would use the imperfect "Yo quería ir...." because it is the backdrop for the event of "tried to save the money". Evidently, the speaker still would like to go to Europe, so the "wanting" hasn't ended. The attempt to "save the money" has a defined beginning and end, so I would phrase it in the preterite.

Let's say my friend Diego asks me: "Why didn't your friends come to my house last night?" "¿Por qué no llegaron a mi casa tus amigos anoche?" I answer: "Because they wanted to go to the movies (instead)". "Porque quisieron ir al cine (en vez de la fiesta de Diego)." The use of "quisieron" here implies that they went to the movies (instead of going to Diego's party), that their wanting came to an end. If I answered "Porque querían ir al cine", Diego would probably ask, "And then what happened, why didn't they go?", because the "wanting" still hasn't ended.

So yes, in context it can mean "tried to", but in other contexts it can convey the meaning that I, you, they, us, wanted to do something, and it was carried out.

Hope I didn't muddy the waters further.


(This post was edited by willieboy on Jun 17, 2009, 5:46 PM)

jerezano

Jun 18, 2009, 8:49 AM

Post #5 of 14 (11023 views)

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Re: [willieboy] Querer en preterito

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Hello,

No willieboy, you did not muddy things up. In fact your statements make more sense than the schools dictum, although the whole discussion shows the problems of translation.

I, too, would be uncomfortable with the dictum of the school that:

>>>>>>>>>
"QUERER: (to want) changes to: to try (affirmative) or to refuse (negative). Quise hacerlo = I tried to do it. No quise hacerlo = I refused to do it. Querer in the preterite refers not just to wanting, but wanting and attempting or refusing to attempt a specific act. Quise hacerlo is synonymous with traté de hacerlo." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Without doubt quise hacerlo means I wanted to do it. Whether I did or not doesn't even enter into the matter. Quise hacerlo also say I no longer want to do it.

No quise hacerlo means I didn't want to do it. It doesn't mean I refused to do it unless put into the context that My boss asked me to do it and I refused to do it because I did'nt want to do it. But that "I refused to do it" would need to be explained before you could translate No quise hacerlo into a refusal.

The reasons for not doing it or for no longer wanting to do it can be many. One of which of course is that I tried to do it but couldn't and I realized that I never could. But that is only one explanation of many.

So be satisfied. Continue to translate querer in the preterite as want, and then explain why you quit wanting or why you no longer want.

Sometimes the simple is much better than the complicated. In translating be sure and fit the meanings into the context of the message.

Keep up the good work.

jerezano.


(This post was edited by jerezano on Jun 18, 2009, 8:53 AM)

sergiogomez / Moderator

Jun 19, 2009, 8:20 PM

Post #6 of 14 (10983 views)

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Re: [tashby] Querer en preterito

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Good question. It is a hard thing to get used to. I would clarify the textbook's explanation (or maybe just add to the confusion) by saying that it might be easier to consider the preterite of querer as an entirely different word. In other words, the more distance you put between the preterite of querer and wanting/loving, and the more you associate it with trying or denial words like tratar de, intentar, rehusar, negarse, the better. It's weird. It's frustrating. That's the way it is. No one knows why.

Off the top of my head, I would say that I use quise/quiso to mean "tried to do something and failed" or "tried and didn't get the desired result" more often than I use it to mean "I absolutely refused to do it." A few examples to show how want/didn't want/refused can be used:

(Yo) no fui porque no quería.
No fui porque no tenía ganas.

I didn't go because I didn't want to / didn't feel like it. (You will also hear "no fui porque no quise" used to mean the same thing; my personal opinion is that it can be done but it is substandard grammar.)

No lo logré porque no quise.
I didn't achieve it because I didn't (even) try.

Ella no quiso hacerlo.
Ella se negó a hacerlo.

She refused to do it.

Quise hacer tamales anoche pero me salieron mal.
I tried to make tamales last night but they came out badly.

Ellos no quisieron que el policía entrara a su casa.
They didn't want the police officer to come in their house (implies they might have tried, unsuccessfully, to keep him out).

Using your example of saving money to go to Europe, I would translate it something like this:

Tenía ganas de ir a Europa, así que quise / intenté ahorrar el dinero (pero lo gasté en otra cosa, tuve que ir al hospital, etc.)
I wanted to go to Europe, so I tried (made an effort) to save the money (but I spent it on something else, I had to go to the hospital, etc.) Use of the preterite quise / intenté (I tried to) implies failure to save the money, otherwise you would have saved yourself the trouble and said ahorré (I saved it, it's a done deal). Does that make sense?

tashby


Jun 21, 2009, 12:00 PM

Post #7 of 14 (10962 views)

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Re: [sergiogomez] Querer en preterito

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Thanks for the outstanding replies sergiogomez, jerezano and willieboy. I've read each of them several times.

I'm not going to pretend I have solid footing on it at this point, but I definitely have a better understanding. Thank you. In reading your replies (again....) it's pretty clear that context is king, and that in almost all cases further explanation is required. (And really, even when I think about how "wanted" or "tried" is used in English in the past tense, that's also the case.)

I wanted to _________ (so then what happened?)
I didn't want to __________ (why not?)
I tried to_____________ (and? Then what?)
I refused to/didn't want to __________ (why is that?)

Unless it's a perfunctory response to a direct question, a question that already supplies the context, more explanation is necessary for the full story to be told and the meaning to be understood. (I think. Ha.)

I'm reminded of something Esperanza once said about how the answer to so many questions regarding Mexico - in this case language - begin with the same two words. What does querer mean in the preterite? "It depends...."

No matter what, as I said earlier, I have miles of learning to go yet before I worry about this level of language and nuance. I'm still struggling with such basics as correct word order, articulos, and those damn direct and indirect object pronouns. Next up? The imperfect tense! Yay.....

Hopefully this thread helped someone else, too. Thanks again.

P.S. Interestingly, my "501 Spanish Verbs" book, which is a Barron's publication and has nothing to do with the Warren Hardy materials, says the same thing Warren Hardy does: that querer in the preterite changes to "tried/refused". Perhaps it's just an easier/shorthand way to explain to English speakers that there's more involved...

sergiogomez / Moderator

Jun 22, 2009, 2:21 PM

Post #8 of 14 (10935 views)

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Re: [tashby] Querer en preterito

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Yep. Context and further explanation are king. As one of my crazy Colombian friends likes to say, Spanish is all about beating around the bush. Which is great when you don't know how to say what you want. It might take a long road to get there, but eventually you'll get there. Sort of. Or maybe not. It depends. Esperanza's definitely right about that.

"El Gringo Jalapeño"


Jun 28, 2009, 7:33 PM

Post #9 of 14 (10870 views)

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Re: [tashby] Querer en preterito

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As my mexican TV heroe el Chavo del Ocho always says "Fue sin querer queriendo"... It was accidently on purpose.
Or as our beloved comedian Cantinflas would say when everything goes wrong..."Eso es debido a la falta de ignorancia"...This is due to the lack of ignorance.
And just remember and follow my advice..."Portense mal, y cuidense bien sin mirar a quien"
¡Alli nos vemos, chamacos!
Roy B. Dudley "El Gringo Jalapeño" See more about Xalapa at www.xalaparoy.com

sergiogomez / Moderator

Jun 29, 2009, 12:55 PM

Post #10 of 14 (10842 views)

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Re: ["El Gringo Jalapeño"] Querer en preterito

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Fue sin querer queriendo. One of my favorite nonsensical sayings. As my boyfriend likes to say (when I start chewing him out for some weird or annoying thing he did), no lo hice ni lo volveré a hacer. I didn't do it and I won't do it again. It usually makes me laugh. Usually.

"El Gringo Jalapeño"


Jun 29, 2009, 11:36 PM

Post #11 of 14 (10827 views)

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Re: [sergiogomez] Querer en preterito

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¡Fantastico! I will have to work that incredible phrase into my "dichos"..."¡¡No lo hice ni lo volveré a hacer!!" I didn't do it nor will I ever do it again! ¡Fantastico!
Roy B. Dudley "El Gringo Jalapeño" See more about Xalapa at www.xalaparoy.com

zaragemca

Nov 12, 2009, 12:18 PM

Post #12 of 14 (9564 views)

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Re: ["El Gringo Jalapeño"] Querer en preterito

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Greeting. I do agree with Sergio Gomez presentation which is pretty clear, I just would like to point out that the past tense in Spanish have two features; the perfect, 'QUISE, and the imperfect, HUBIERA QUERIDO, or, HABRIA QUERIDO. There are more complex forms, but I thing it is good right there. Gerry Zaragemca
International Club of Percussionists

(This post was edited by zaragemca on Nov 12, 2009, 12:20 PM)

mevale

Nov 13, 2009, 6:49 AM

Post #13 of 14 (9530 views)

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Re: [zaragemca] Querer en preterito

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Greeting. I do agree with Sergio Gomez presentation which is pretty clear, I just would like to point out that the past tense in Spanish have two features; the perfect, 'QUISE, and the imperfect, HUBIERA QUERIDO, or, HABRIA QUERIDO. There are more complex forms, but I thing it is good right there. Gerry Zaragemca

??????? The imperfect form of "querer" is "yo quería, tú querías, etc". The examples you gave are the Pretérito pluscuamperfecto (subjunctive mood) and the Pretérito pluscuamperfecto (indicative)

Actually, there are five past tenses in the indicative: Pretérito perfecto compuesto, Pretérito imperfecto, Pretérito pluscuamperfecto, Pretérito perfecto simple, Pretérito anterior.

And three in the subjunctive: Pretérito perfecto, Pretérito imperfecto, Pretérito pluscuamperfecto

zaragemca

Nov 13, 2009, 8:59 AM

Post #14 of 14 (9508 views)

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Re: [willieboy] Querer en preterito

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Welcome Willieboy, I do agree with you, but in reality, 'Yo queria', 'tu querias', etc., are another perfect tense of, 'Yo quise', 'tu quisistes, etc. They are making a CONFIRMATION of the action, instead of; 'Hubiera Querido', 'Habria Querido', etc., which are actions subjected to SOMETHING, (that way imperfect). I know that there are more complex forms as, PLUSCUAIMPERFECTO, etc. That's the reason, (as you could see in my posting), that I said, 'but I think is good right there'. Gerry Zaragemca
International Club of Percussionists
 
 
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