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DavidMTY

Jun 2, 2002, 12:48 PM

Post #1 of 8 (5956 views)

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Tirol / Estuco (Stucco)

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Hi all, let me try my luck posting here:)<p>I have always considered Tirol, according to me, a mixture of mortar ("Crest" (R) Blanco), wood glue (Unidor (R) or Resistol (R)), white cement (Cemento blanco) and pulverized white rock (marmolina & perhaps chia) which can be applied by a "stucco flinging machine" that looks and sounds like a cross between an atomic party clicker and a spoon flinging food fight in the cafeteria (Tirolera), or by an air compressor with the appropriate accessory pneumatic sprayer gun, the same concept as stucco. My questions are:<p>What is the English for the Tirolera? Is it "stucco machine"?<p>What is the English for Marmolina? Is it "powdered white rock"?<p>And most important, I would love to know what are the general differences for this interior texturized coating, if any, between Mexican Tirol (according to the above formula) and Modern stucco as well as the stuff of the Art Deco era, besides the size of the stone powder or grindings.<p>Thanks! for the help...David(MTY) el tirolero <p>



Esteban

Jun 2, 2002, 2:11 PM

Post #2 of 8 (5925 views)

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Tirol / Estuco (Stucco)

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I think of Marmolina as Marble dust.<p>A stucco machine may be called a gunite machine or just a stucco pump. I don't think there is any name for it. Basically, it's a piston pump that pumps the stucco onto the surface. I'm sure it has to then be worked with hand trowels.<p>Lath and plaster used to be popular but I haven't seen anyone use it lately. Most stuff in the US is sheetrock with an application of tape and "sheetrock" mud in either a smooth or textured surface.<p>Here are some facts I pulled off a website: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos210.htm<p>When plasterers work with interior surfaces such as concrete block and concrete, they first apply a brown coat of gypsum plaster that provides a base, followed by a second, or finish, coat?also called "white coat"?which is a lime-based plaster. When plastering metal lath (supportive wire mesh) foundations, they apply a preparatory, or "scratch," coat with a trowel. They spread this rich plaster mixture into and over the metal lath. Before the plaster sets, plasterers scratch its surface with a rake-like tool to produce ridges, so that the subsequent brown coat will bond tightly.<p>Laborers prepare a thick, smooth plaster for the brown coat. Plasterers spray or trowel this mixture onto the surface, then finish by smoothing it to an even, level surface.<p>For the finish coat, plasterers prepare a mixture of lime, plaster of Paris, and water. They quickly apply this to the brown coat using a "hawk"?a light, metal plate with a handle?trowel, brush, and water. This mixture, which sets very quickly, produces a very smooth, durable finish.<p>Plasterers also work with a plaster material that can be finished in a single coat. This "thin-coat" or gypsum veneer plaster is made of lime and plaster of Paris and is mixed with water at the jobsite. This plaster provides a smooth, durable, abrasion-resistant finish on interior masonry surfaces, special gypsum baseboard, or drywall prepared with a bonding agent.<p>Plasterers create decorative interior surfaces as well. They do this by pressing a brush or trowel firmly against a wet plaster surface and using a circular hand motion to create decorative swirls.<p>For exterior work, stucco masons usually apply stucco?a mixture of Portland cement, lime, and sand?over cement, concrete, masonry, or lath. Stucco may also be applied directly to a wire lath with a scratch coat, followed by a brown coat and then a finish coat. Stucco masons may also embed marble or gravel chips into the finish coat to achieve a pebblelike, decorative finish.<p>Increasingly, plasterers apply insulation to the exteriors of new and old buildings. They cover the outer wall with rigid foam insulation board and reinforcing mesh, and then trowel on a polymer-based or polymer-modified base coat. They may apply an additional coat of this material with a decorative finish.<p>Plasterers sometimes do complex decorative and ornamental work that requires special skill and creativity. For example, they may mold intricate wall and ceiling designs. Following an architect's blueprint, plasterers pour or spray a special plaster into a mold and allow it to set. Workers then remove the molded plaster and put it in place, according to the plan.<p>


Carl Carlson

Jun 2, 2002, 8:54 PM

Post #3 of 8 (5924 views)

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Tirol / Estuco (Stucco)

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I don't know anything about tirol, but powdered white rock sounds like marble dust that is used in some fancy grout and plaster. Marmolina sounds like marmol which sometimes means travertine or marble.


Jaime

Jun 3, 2002, 2:57 PM

Post #4 of 8 (5925 views)

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Marmolina is ground marble or powdered marble. nfm

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: Hi all, let me try my luck posting here:)<p>: I have always considered Tirol, according to me, a mixture of mortar ("Crest" (R) Blanco), wood glue (Unidor (R) or Resistol (R)), white cement (Cemento blanco) and pulverized white rock (marmolina & perhaps chia) which can be applied by a "stucco flinging machine" that looks and sounds like a cross between an atomic party clicker and a spoon flinging food fight in the cafeteria (Tirolera), or by an air compressor with the appropriate accessory pneumatic sprayer gun, the same concept as stucco. My questions are:<p>: What is the English for the Tirolera? Is it "stucco machine"?<p>: What is the English for Marmolina? Is it "powdered white rock"?<p>: And most important, I would love to know what are the general differences for this interior texturized coating, if any, between Mexican Tirol (according to the above formula) and Modern stucco as well as the stuff of the Art Deco era, besides the size of the stone powder or grindings.<p>: Thanks! for the help...David(MTY) el tirolero <p>


Gary sculptari

Jun 10, 2002, 12:25 PM

Post #5 of 8 (5925 views)

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Tirol / Estuco (Stucco)

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Hmm, you ask a great many questions I'll see if can help a little bit.<p>The sprayer you refer to may be called a "tirolessa" brand, made in Mexico - I know because I just bought one two weeks ago! I haven't tried it yet. It sprays the type of mixture you describe, often a fiber such as chopped glass strand is added. They use to use animal hair, especially horse hair.<p>There is also a tyrolean 'flinger', a mechanical flap flings the finish stucco in large globs, it is called a Tyrolean finish but I never seen one in North America - it is a Swiss/Austrian decoration.<p>The Marmolina is an attempt to copy the colored marble powders of Italy. The chemical name is calcium carbonate - it is basically a cheap filler. Nowadays good lime proof pigments are used, the real marble is only useful if you want a highly polished trowel finish (beautiful but expensive).<p>The old stuccoes of Europe and Mexican colonial periods were all based on lime. There were many highly secret ingredients. It was formed into a putty and sculpted in the decorations you see in many old churches. It became as hard as stone, the Italians called it 'stucco duro' and the artisans who worked it, the 'stuccotari' were the elite tradesmen of Europe for many centuries. It was often painted and gilded.<p>The new immigrants to America and Mexico did not have these elite skills, casting rather than modelling became the norm, and stucco became to mean any 'plastering' on the outside of buildings - which of course meant cement rather than gypsum plaster.<p>My personal opinion is that exterior stucco must contain lime, the acrylic glues do nothing more than 'clog the pores' of the building and they do not seem to be standing the test of time. The lime stucco should be whitewashed with lime mixture as well, for the same reason. A building has to breathe to survive, it is as simple as that. The fresh whitewash also kills molds, bugs and algaes.<p>These are all oversimplifications, and are not meant to step on toes. I know a great deal on this subject as well as sgraffito, fresco and other decorative plasters/stuccoes.<p>The art deco stuccos composition would depend on where and when they are made.


Gary sculptari

Jun 10, 2002, 12:37 PM

Post #6 of 8 (5925 views)

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Tirol / Estuco (Stucco)

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Here is a link for an artist in San Miguel who uses concrete as a sculpting medium. He is most likely spraying over a galvanized mesh, using a tirolessa sprayer.


DavidMTY

Jun 14, 2002, 10:37 PM

Post #7 of 8 (5924 views)

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Tirol / Estuco (Stucco)

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Thanks to everyone for the bits and pieces which help make sense of this. Gary, if that is helping just "a little" I wonder what you consider a lot to be (I bet you do some real quality work).<p>You bought an atomic tirolera, whereas mine is the little "flinger" you described as unknown in North America, the tool actually commonly known in these parts as a tirolera. The latter is actually quite a common finish in Monterrey for interior ceilings as in my case. <p>I found out as well about the Austrian city of Tyrol, where these types of finishes were common, which in Spanish or Italian, I suspect, is Tirol, hence Tirolessa.<p>Regarding the Art Deco exterior stucco, I was thinking of the South Beach (Miami Beach) era, which I suppose was at its peak in the 20's and 30's?<p>Best! David(MTY)<p><p>: Hmm, you ask a great many questions I'll see if can help a little bit.<p>: The sprayer you refer to may be called a "tirolessa" brand, made in Mexico - I know because I just bought one two weeks ago! I haven't tried it yet. It sprays the type of mixture you describe, often a fiber such as chopped glass strand is added. They use to use animal hair, especially horse hair.<p>: There is also a tyrolean 'flinger', a mechanical flap flings the finish stucco in large globs, it is called a Tyrolean finish but I never seen one in North America - it is a Swiss/Austrian decoration.<p>: The Marmolina is an attempt to copy the colored marble powders of Italy. The chemical name is calcium carbonate - it is basically a cheap filler. Nowadays good lime proof pigments are used, the real marble is only useful if you want a highly polished trowel finish (beautiful but expensive).<p>: The old stuccoes of Europe and Mexican colonial periods were all based on lime. There were many highly secret ingredients. It was formed into a putty and sculpted in the decorations you see in many old churches. It became as hard as stone, the Italians called it 'stucco duro' and the artisans who worked it, the 'stuccotari' were the elite tradesmen of Europe for many centuries. It was often painted and gilded.<p>: The new immigrants to America and Mexico did not have these elite skills, casting rather than modelling became the norm, and stucco became to mean any 'plastering' on the outside of buildings - which of course meant cement rather than gypsum plaster.<p>: My personal opinion is that exterior stucco must contain lime, the acrylic glues do nothing more than 'clog the pores' of the building and they do not seem to be standing the test of time. The lime stucco should be whitewashed with lime mixture as well, for the same reason. A building has to breathe to survive, it is as simple as that. The fresh whitewash also kills molds, bugs and algaes.<p>: These are all oversimplifications, and are not meant to step on toes. I know a great deal on this subject as well as sgraffito, fresco and other decorative plasters/stuccoes.<p>: The art deco stuccos composition would depend on where and when they are made.<p>


Chris Bollweg

Oct 12, 2002, 10:00 PM

Post #8 of 8 (5936 views)

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Tirol / Estuco (Stucco)

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 Estuco italiano chi sono dui del cemento i cal per interiores. Well, my spanish is better than my italian theses days. Gypsum plaster and portaland cement plaster are the two classes of materials. They are for interiors and exteriors
 
 
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