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Nip

Jul 9, 2002, 9:35 AM

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translation for peas & greenbeans (nfm)

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DavidMTY

Jul 9, 2002, 2:24 PM

Post #2 of 17 (7071 views)

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chícharos y ejotes: en mexicano (nmm)

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Nip

Jul 10, 2002, 6:06 AM

Post #3 of 17 (7073 views)

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Spanglish

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Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms.


DavidMTY

Jul 10, 2002, 9:10 AM

Post #4 of 17 (7072 views)

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Ishbaniya & macehualcopa

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Thanks too. Just a clarification with all due respects to the richness of the interesting and practical Spanglish language (I haven't checked the link you posted yet, will do). Chícharo is also accepted by Castillian Spanish, though they consider ejote a regionalism for Mexico and Central America.<p>Both words you asked about sound like they are in fact part of Spanglish, and they probably are. But, they have been parts of other hybrid languages before and have ancient roots!<p>Guisante (Castillian Spanish Dialect)
Pisos (Greek)
Pisum (Latin)
Pease (Archaic English)
Guisante (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic, adopted by Castillian dialect)
_Pisum sativum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the English pea or Green pea)<p>
"Rooted" in the same time frame we had:
cicer, cicero (Latin)
Chick(pea) or Ceci (English)
Chícharo (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic)
_Cicer arietinum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the Chick pea or garbanzo bean)<p>All above are from two different ancient "roots", and the original "pease" were from Central Asia. Now, just because the green pea in popular use in English has its roots the same scientific genus as the word guisante and chícharo doesn't, but rather the chick pea, really has nothing to do with one being more correct or appropriate than the other. Scientific names were not standardized until after the mid 1700's. By that time, Spanish Mexico was had a language over two centuries old. As far as the green pea being actually recognized as different from the Chick pea, that is also a relativly modern event, as the English worked on domesticating it between 1200 - 1700. Many proper US southern ladies still refer to the pea as the English Pea, (they have chick pea, black-eyed pea) which shows that in the US their was equal acceptance of "pea" to apply to anything from both genera, green or not.<p>Ejote is an easier one. In English Bean is a very general term. It is directly an addition of exoyo (Exotl) from the Nahuatl language by hybridizing to sounds to be more hispanic. The Green Beans=String Beans=Snap Beans in English in one of many, many current form have been bred since ancient times and do not have the same genome as the wide variety of beans of our ancestors, and the term has been used to describe many large seeds, in edible pods or not, from many parts of the world. So Ejote has just as fair a claim to be be an accepted word when the Real Academia decides it and it is heard more often outside Mexico & C.A. It is definitely the preferred word in Mexico,probably since the times of Cortez when the Spanish raided and were gifted with the native "beans". The only way to restrict the use of any of these words is to do a lot of research and come up with specific names for each bean, perhaps such as the "faba bean".<p>Hope that is a cornucopia for thought...David(MTY)<p>
: Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms. <p>


Mereja

Jul 10, 2002, 6:23 PM

Post #5 of 17 (7070 views)

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Spanglish

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The word "habichuelas" is used Puerto Rico. My dictionary says it is kidney beans.<p>: Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms. <p>


John R

Jul 10, 2002, 8:49 PM

Post #6 of 17 (7069 views)

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Spanglish

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In light of David's wonderful post, I suspect that these words are regional variations, not a Spanglish term (such as "yonke," for example). You'll get different names for common foods in many parts of the Spanish-speaking (or the English-speaking) world, for that matter.


Angelina

Jul 11, 2002, 9:18 AM

Post #7 of 17 (7069 views)

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Ishbaniya &amp; macehualcopa

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My goodness David@! Brilliant way to make a point! KUDOS to you.<p>: Thanks too. Just a clarification with all due respects to the richness of the interesting and practical Spanglish language (I haven't checked the link you posted yet, will do). Chícharo is also accepted by Castillian Spanish, though they consider ejote a regionalism for Mexico and Central America.<p>: Both words you asked about sound like they are in fact part of Spanglish, and they probably are. But, they have been parts of other hybrid languages before and have ancient roots!<p>: Guisante (Castillian Spanish Dialect)
: Pisos (Greek)
: Pisum (Latin)
: Pease (Archaic English)
: Guisante (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic, adopted by Castillian dialect)
: _Pisum sativum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the English pea or Green pea)<p>:
: "Rooted" in the same time frame we had:
: cicer, cicero (Latin)
: Chick(pea) or Ceci (English)
: Chícharo (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic)
: _Cicer arietinum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the Chick pea or garbanzo bean)<p>: All above are from two different ancient "roots", and the original "pease" were from Central Asia. Now, just because the green pea in popular use in English has its roots the same scientific genus as the word guisante and chícharo doesn't, but rather the chick pea, really has nothing to do with one being more correct or appropriate than the other. Scientific names were not standardized until after the mid 1700's. By that time, Spanish Mexico was had a language over two centuries old. As far as the green pea being actually recognized as different from the Chick pea, that is also a relativly modern event, as the English worked on domesticating it between 1200 - 1700. Many proper US southern ladies still refer to the pea as the English Pea, (they have chick pea, black-eyed pea) which shows that in the US their was equal acceptance of "pea" to apply to anything from both genera, green or not.<p>: Ejote is an easier one. In English Bean is a very general term. It is directly an addition of exoyo (Exotl) from the Nahuatl language by hybridizing to sounds to be more hispanic. The Green Beans=String Beans=Snap Beans in English in one of many, many current form have been bred since ancient times and do not have the same genome as the wide variety of beans of our ancestors, and the term has been used to describe many large seeds, in edible pods or not, from many parts of the world. So Ejote has just as fair a claim to be be an accepted word when the Real Academia decides it and it is heard more often outside Mexico & C.A. It is definitely the preferred word in Mexico,probably since the times of Cortez when the Spanish raided and were gifted with the native "beans". The only way to restrict the use of any of these words is to do a lot of research and come up with specific names for each bean, perhaps such as the "faba bean".<p>: Hope that is a cornucopia for thought...David(MTY)<p>:
: : Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms. <p>


DavidMTY

Jul 11, 2002, 9:01 PM

Post #8 of 17 (7082 views)

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Spanglish

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Habichuela is just the diminutive form of haba, from the Roman (Latin) word for the "bean" of the age in Europe, the faba. To confuse things further, this "bean" is actually scientifically more identified with the PEA Family, and even gives its name to the Pea Family: Fabacae, after this "bean"! :-P. Though Peas and Beans are sometimes said to be in the Pea and Bean Family, and the word Leguminosae is used as well to name the family. In short the scientists can't make up their mind.<p>You probably have seen faba beans in the store at some point: They are the fat green waxy pods with the big brown bean seeds inside. One reason the entire pea family is named after them is that the "Faba beans" were the only "food-beans" in Europe from ancient Greek times to the 1500's. That especially included Italy and thus the latin word "fava". Today's scientific name for this bean is _Vicia faba_. They were originally domesticated around Persia probably 8,000 years ago or so, though when Egypt became the worlds only superpower they assimulated them in a big way, and invented the "falafel" grinding them up. <p>Which also gets more interesting in Biblical times, as when the Jews were in Egypt their principle food was the faba bean and soups made from it. Sephardic Jew's, in step with their old traditions in Spain, maintained these in the diet, and especially around the holy days (like matzos today), thus explaining the reason why another word today for beans in the Spanish language carried over in the form of: Judías.<p>The faba bean was so important that the latin word for bread, panis, which led to the Spanish, pan, is actually from the greek name for faba: puanos.<p>Now even for a bit more excitement, the currently more popular eating _Phaseolus_ sp. bean species originated and were cultivated into antiquity in Southern Mexico to Honduras; as even much further back in Peruvian areas. The conquistadors brought these Latin American species back and by 1600 they had even reached China. (undoubtably "habas" judías was shortened to judías at this time, much as one could imagine Lima bean in English being shortened to simply Limas and/or beans. If you ever wondered, the larger Lima beans, _Phaseolus limensis _, were endemic to the Peruvian coast precursors domesticated about 8,000 years ago, but the smaller seed butterbean varieties, precursors domesticated from Central American Mexico and Guatemala area _Phaseolus lunatus _ date about 2,400 years back.<p>HARICOT BEANS & MEXICO: Includes: Green Beans, French Beans, Pole Beans, Kidney Beans, Navy Beans, Chili Beans, Pinto Beans and Black Beans are collectively sometimes known as haricot beans, all come from _Phaseolus vulgarus_, after the French picked upon cultivating them for culinery innovation, getting the seeds from the Spanish conquistador's. The Spanish when they originally brought them back, called them "Ayecotl" (Francocized into Haricot, a basic French vocab), surprise, from the Aztec Nahuatl word they were told meant that, though it was specific, to plump seeded beans, and the pod green beans in Nahuatl are as mentioned in my other post, Exotl, which in was hispanicized to Ejote. A clarification: Though the species was around in Central Mexico for 6,000 years, the indigenous did not begin cultivating it until 2,000 years ago. The Spanish brought it to Europe, but the French really perfected it in many more ways in a much shorter time, including the development of the edible, tender green beans in a pod (French Beans, Green Beans), and even exported this back to Mexico where it was adopted immediately.<p>So while Exotl is the appropriate Nahautl word for the precursor string beans in a pod, giving rise to the term ejote, it didn't refer to the tender green snap beans we know today, but it was the closest thing. Ejotes franceses would be a very accurate term, and in English the best we can do is fall back on "Haricot" and call Green Beans: Haricot Beans, which is correct, unambiguous nomenclature in English.<p>And habichuelas would have caught on in different regions to describe any bean smaller than the faba, which is most except the big Peruvian Lima! So if we wanted to distinguish with special names we could, but popular naming has led to the puzzles of today's names. <p>However, as the first to develop haricot beans the French might have some major claim in the name, who in turn shared given credit to their original raw material source of _Phaseolus vulgaris_: the Aztecs. By the way, Phaseolus means "boat" to describe the pod, and vulgaris, common. So internationally all the Mexican haricots are known as common boat beans if translating their scientific name. That about takes care of most of the Western peas and bean that are eaten!<p>Best...David(MTY)<p><p><p>: The word "habichuelas" is used Puerto Rico. My dictionary says it is kidney beans.<p>: : Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms. <p>


Wendy

Jul 11, 2002, 10:21 PM

Post #9 of 17 (7073 views)

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Faba=Fava?

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David,<p>Thanks for the interesting posting about all the types of beans...
but pray tell...would the Faba beans that you describe be the self-same Fava beans growing in my garden? The description sounds the same...and with a little trade of a b for a v...<p>Here, fava beans are the earliest ripening type of bean that you can grow...any day now... I'll be steaming that first crop!<p>Saludos de Canada Wendy


DavidMTY

Jul 11, 2002, 11:20 PM

Post #10 of 17 (7081 views)

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Frijoles &amp; more fabichuelas

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So where does Frijol fit in...<p>It is time to give the Italians and Greeks their chance, specifically those from Fiesole in Tuscany: a minor walk from Florence. Fiesole used to be a very important city on trade routes, and a more powerful city than Florence, where Speculation is that the population was in love with Black-eyed Pea(the "Pea" from Asia and brought to Africa, first domesticated in Egypt 5,500 years ago,_Vigna unguiculata_, (Fiesole apparently had a regional dish cooked of immature Black-eyed Peas in inmature green crescent shaped pods). The name of the town suggests it was related to the Greek faseol and latin faseolus (Phaseolus), also the word for crescent shaped boat, and the hills above the pre-historic town certainly resemble a crescent shape, too. So the conquistadores experience knowledge of this city led them to call bean like things fiesoles==>fesoles==>frijoles mutating after a few centuries of mixing sounds.<p>With respect to habichuela, the Black-eyed Pea also figured as it was the original one causing this term to get generated, about 1,000 years ago, in Mozarabic Spanish dialect, the diminuative of faba (haba) was used with the appropriate aspiration: favichuela, to refer to the thinner pods.<p>Best..David(MTY)<p>
: Habichuela is just the diminutive form of haba, from the Roman (Latin) word for the "bean" of the age in Europe, the faba. To confuse things further, this "bean" is actually scientifically more identified with the PEA Family, and even gives its name to the Pea Family: Fabacae, after this "bean"! :-P. Though Peas and Beans are sometimes said to be in the Pea and Bean Family, and the word Leguminosae is used as well to name the family. In short the scientists can't make up their mind.<p>: You probably have seen faba beans in the store at some point: They are the fat green waxy pods with the big brown bean seeds inside. One reason the entire pea family is named after them is that the "Faba beans" were the only "food-beans" in Europe from ancient Greek times to the 1500's. That especially included Italy and thus the latin word "fava". Today's scientific name for this bean is _Vicia faba_. They were originally domesticated around Persia probably 8,000 years ago or so, though when Egypt became the worlds only superpower they assimulated them in a big way, and invented the "falafel" grinding them up. <p>: Which also gets more interesting in Biblical times, as when the Jews were in Egypt their principle food was the faba bean and soups made from it. Sephardic Jew's, in step with their old traditions in Spain, maintained these in the diet, and especially around the holy days (like matzos today), thus explaining the reason why another word today for beans in the Spanish language carried over in the form of: Judías.<p>: The faba bean was so important that the latin word for bread, panis, which led to the Spanish, pan, is actually from the greek name for faba: puanos.<p>: Now even for a bit more excitement, the currently more popular eating _Phaseolus_ sp. bean species originated and were cultivated into antiquity in Southern Mexico to Honduras; as even much further back in Peruvian areas. The conquistadors brought these Latin American species back and by 1600 they had even reached China. (undoubtably "habas" judías was shortened to judías at this time, much as one could imagine Lima bean in English being shortened to simply Limas and/or beans. If you ever wondered, the larger Lima beans, _Phaseolus limensis _, were endemic to the Peruvian coast precursors domesticated about 8,000 years ago, but the smaller seed butterbean varieties, precursors domesticated from Central American Mexico and Guatemala area _Phaseolus lunatus _ date about 2,400 years back.<p>: HARICOT BEANS & MEXICO: Includes: Green Beans, French Beans, Pole Beans, Kidney Beans, Navy Beans, Chili Beans, Pinto Beans and Black Beans are collectively sometimes known as haricot beans, all come from _Phaseolus vulgarus_, after the French picked upon cultivating them for culinery innovation, getting the seeds from the Spanish conquistador's. The Spanish when they originally brought them back, called them "Ayecotl" (Francocized into Haricot, a basic French vocab), surprise, from the Aztec Nahuatl word they were told meant that, though it was specific, to plump seeded beans, and the pod green beans in Nahuatl are as mentioned in my other post, Exotl, which in was hispanicized to Ejote. A clarification: Though the species was around in Central Mexico for 6,000 years, the indigenous did not begin cultivating it until 2,000 years ago. The Spanish brought it to Europe, but the French really perfected it in many more ways in a much shorter time, including the development of the edible, tender green beans in a pod (French Beans, Green Beans), and even exported this back to Mexico where it was adopted immediately.<p>: So while Exotl is the appropriate Nahautl word for the precursor string beans in a pod, giving rise to the term ejote, it didn't refer to the tender green snap beans we know today, but it was the closest thing. Ejotes franceses would be a very accurate term, and in English the best we can do is fall back on "Haricot" and call Green Beans: Haricot Beans, which is correct, unambiguous nomenclature in English.<p>: And habichuelas would have caught on in different regions to describe any bean smaller than the faba, which is most except the big Peruvian Lima! So if we wanted to distinguish with special names we could, but popular naming has led to the puzzles of today's names. <p>: However, as the first to develop haricot beans the French might have some major claim in the name, who in turn shared given credit to their original raw material source of _Phaseolus vulgaris_: the Aztecs. By the way, Phaseolus means "boat" to describe the pod, and vulgaris, common. So internationally all the Mexican haricots are known as common boat beans if translating their scientific name. That about takes care of most of the Western peas and bean that are eaten!<p>: Best...David(MTY)<p><p>: : The word "habichuelas" is used Puerto Rico. My dictionary says it is kidney beans.<p>: : : Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms. <p>


DavidMTY

Jul 12, 2002, 1:45 AM

Post #11 of 17 (7074 views)

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Yes! (&amp; Haba &amp; Broad Bean &amp; Horse Bean &amp; Judía de Caballo...and an ancient Roman rec

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Hi Wendy, thanks for letting me know at least one person is reading the bean scrolls:)<p>Yes they certainly are one in the same, depending on your Latin or Italian it was confused throughout history as you can see in haba (Spain) and Fava (Italy). If you have any doubt still, just confirm that the "eyes" where your faba beans connect to the pod are on the end, and not in the middle.<p>Now, of course they are the earliest season "beans" you can get, as they were bred for nearly 10,000 years from the temperate zone for the temperate zone, as far north as you can get, i.e., Northern Europe, Persia northward, as well as Turkey, Egypt, etc. Not wimpy tropical Mexican stock. In a prior post I mentioned that would probably be better described as a "pea", but if you want to split hairs (or peas, jaja), fabas are really just Vetches. You know, relatives of that weedy vine that grows on fences everywhere. (In california it turns roadsides purple in flowers -all these are not faba, but other wild purple-flowered Vetches. If you look at their pods, you can appreciate the relationship.) For Canada, the largest seeded version of Fabas, the Windsor varieties, are the best tasting, refined in England. The faba beans are more nutritious than the Haricot beans from Mexico. As a matter of fact there was a lot of sickness caused from deficiencies on voyages when conquistadores made the bean switch.<p>Best eating...David(MTY) <p>Ancient Roman recipe - 2nd century
Fava Beans alla Vitellius
4 servings <p>3 lbs. Fresh Unshelled Fava Beans
2 Leeks
2 Tbsp (mixed) coriander, mallow flowers (tea or health food shop), garden lovage (_Levisticum officinale_, Sp. Apio de montaña, substitute celery if must), oregano and fennel seeds
pepper to taste
1 Tbsp. Garum (Fish Sauce approximated by todays Vietnamese/Chinese Nuc Nam or Nam Pla, if in a bind and really must, substitute is salt)
1 Cup White Wine
Olive oil to taste <p>Shell the beans, removing the umbilical cord of each bean. Boil in a little lightly salted water until they produce a froth, then add the leeks, herbs, and pepper. <p>When the leeks are soft drain the excess water and add the wine, some
olive oil and garum to the pan bring to the boil and cook to evaporate the alcohol. When the beans are cooked put into a serving dish and pour over fresh extra virgin olive oil and serve. <p>
: David,<p>: Thanks for the interesting posting about all the types of beans...
: but pray tell...would the Faba beans that you describe be the self-same Fava beans growing in my garden? The description sounds the same...and with a little trade of a b for a v...<p>: Here, fava beans are the earliest ripening type of bean that you can grow...any day now... I'll be steaming that first crop!<p>: Saludos de Canada Wendy<p>


Nip

Jul 12, 2002, 6:41 AM

Post #12 of 17 (7075 views)

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David, Ive &quot;bean&quot; reading your beans scrolls too! :) (NFM)

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: Hi Wendy, thanks for letting me know at least one person is reading the bean scrolls:)<p>: Yes they certainly are one in the same, depending on your Latin or Italian it was confused throughout history as you can see in haba (Spain) and Fava (Italy). If you have any doubt still, just confirm that the "eyes" where your faba beans connect to the pod are on the end, and not in the middle.<p>: Now, of course they are the earliest season "beans" you can get, as they were bred for nearly 10,000 years from the temperate zone for the temperate zone, as far north as you can get, i.e., Northern Europe, Persia northward, as well as Turkey, Egypt, etc. Not wimpy tropical Mexican stock. In a prior post I mentioned that would probably be better described as a "pea", but if you want to split hairs (or peas, jaja), fabas are really just Vetches. You know, relatives of that weedy vine that grows on fences everywhere. (In california it turns roadsides purple in flowers -all these are not faba, but other wild purple-flowered Vetches. If you look at their pods, you can appreciate the relationship.) For Canada, the largest seeded version of Fabas, the Windsor varieties, are the best tasting, refined in England. The faba beans are more nutritious than the Haricot beans from Mexico. As a matter of fact there was a lot of sickness caused from deficiencies on voyages when conquistadores made the bean switch.<p>: Best eating...David(MTY) <p>: Ancient Roman recipe - 2nd century
: Fava Beans alla Vitellius
: 4 servings <p>: 3 lbs. Fresh Unshelled Fava Beans
: 2 Leeks
: 2 Tbsp (mixed) coriander, mallow flowers (tea or health food shop), garden lovage (_Levisticum officinale_, Sp. Apio de montaña, substitute celery if must), oregano and fennel seeds
: pepper to taste
: 1 Tbsp. Garum (Fish Sauce approximated by todays Vietnamese/Chinese Nuc Nam or Nam Pla, if in a bind and really must, substitute is salt)
: 1 Cup White Wine
: Olive oil to taste <p>: Shell the beans, removing the umbilical cord of each bean. Boil in a little lightly salted water until they produce a froth, then add the leeks, herbs, and pepper. <p>: When the leeks are soft drain the excess water and add the wine, some
: olive oil and garum to the pan bring to the boil and cook to evaporate the alcohol. When the beans are cooked put into a serving dish and pour over fresh extra virgin olive oil and serve. <p>:
: : David,<p>: : Thanks for the interesting posting about all the types of beans...
: : but pray tell...would the Faba beans that you describe be the self-same Fava beans growing in my garden? The description sounds the same...and with a little trade of a b for a v...<p>: : Here, fava beans are the earliest ripening type of bean that you can grow...any day now... I'll be steaming that first crop!<p>: : Saludos de Canada Wendy<p>


Wendy

Jul 12, 2002, 7:53 AM

Post #13 of 17 (7074 views)

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Broad Beans..and an ancient Roman recipe and learning Spanish...

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Thanks David for the additional information and the recipe...
now if I can just rustle up a toga...to start cooking!<p>> For Canada, the largest seeded version of Fabas, the Windsor varieties, are the best tasting, refined in England. <p>Would that be the Royal House of Windsor then, playing around with those beans;^)<p>Now... before Señor Quevedo reminds us gently that this is a form in which to learn Spanish...
please consider communicating here about topics such as this... in Spanish. Along with an English translation...this would be most appreciated. <p>I find that it really helpful when people converse here in Spanish about topics that they have a passion for. Why? <p>It stimulates me to 'think' in Spanish and imagine that I am participating in a conversation between amigos ...en una restaurante con cerezas y frijoles sabrosos;^) Abrazos Wendy<p>


Angelina

Jul 12, 2002, 11:25 AM

Post #14 of 17 (7069 views)

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Una pregunta para David

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Dios Mio David! Eres un genio. What do you do for a living? How did you learn so much about beans?<p><p>: My goodness David@! Brilliant way to make a point! KUDOS to you.<p>: : Thanks too. Just a clarification with all due respects to the richness of the interesting and practical Spanglish language (I haven't checked the link you posted yet, will do). Chícharo is also accepted by Castillian Spanish, though they consider ejote a regionalism for Mexico and Central America.<p>: : Both words you asked about sound like they are in fact part of Spanglish, and they probably are. But, they have been parts of other hybrid languages before and have ancient roots!<p>: : Guisante (Castillian Spanish Dialect)
: : Pisos (Greek)
: : Pisum (Latin)
: : Pease (Archaic English)
: : Guisante (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic, adopted by Castillian dialect)
: : _Pisum sativum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the English pea or Green pea)<p>: :
: : "Rooted" in the same time frame we had:
: : cicer, cicero (Latin)
: : Chick(pea) or Ceci (English)
: : Chícharo (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic)
: : _Cicer arietinum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the Chick pea or garbanzo bean)<p>: : All above are from two different ancient "roots", and the original "pease" were from Central Asia. Now, just because the green pea in popular use in English has its roots the same scientific genus as the word guisante and chícharo doesn't, but rather the chick pea, really has nothing to do with one being more correct or appropriate than the other. Scientific names were not standardized until after the mid 1700's. By that time, Spanish Mexico was had a language over two centuries old. As far as the green pea being actually recognized as different from the Chick pea, that is also a relativly modern event, as the English worked on domesticating it between 1200 - 1700. Many proper US southern ladies still refer to the pea as the English Pea, (they have chick pea, black-eyed pea) which shows that in the US their was equal acceptance of "pea" to apply to anything from both genera, green or not.<p>: : Ejote is an easier one. In English Bean is a very general term. It is directly an addition of exoyo (Exotl) from the Nahuatl language by hybridizing to sounds to be more hispanic. The Green Beans=String Beans=Snap Beans in English in one of many, many current form have been bred since ancient times and do not have the same genome as the wide variety of beans of our ancestors, and the term has been used to describe many large seeds, in edible pods or not, from many parts of the world. So Ejote has just as fair a claim to be be an accepted word when the Real Academia decides it and it is heard more often outside Mexico & C.A. It is definitely the preferred word in Mexico,probably since the times of Cortez when the Spanish raided and were gifted with the native "beans". The only way to restrict the use of any of these words is to do a lot of research and come up with specific names for each bean, perhaps such as the "faba bean".<p>: : Hope that is a cornucopia for thought...David(MTY)<p>: :
: : : Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms. <p>


DavidMTY

Jul 12, 2002, 12:10 PM

Post #15 of 17 (7076 views)

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cosas sabrosas y más...

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Hola Wendy,<p>Cerezas y "frijoles sabrosos"? Qué apropiado todo!<p>You must have known that "guisantes sabrosos" would have been redundant, pero no es que no fueses razonable:)<p>Según la Real Académia Española: <p>Latín pisum sapidum, guisante sabroso; a través del mozárabe bissaut, con g-; por influjo de guisar)<p>I.e., "Guisante" is from mozarabic "bis-saut" which was from "pisum sapidum" (Roman (latin) word for delicious peas, e.g., pisum=black-eyed peas; sapidum=sabrosos) was the original way peas got this common Castillanized name in Spanish, after being influenced by guisar. (which probably meant conserves, or al gusto, though we might think of it as "sauteed", which would make sense, that is from a different latin root (which lead to "saltar" in spanish.))<p>Se llamaban estos legumbres "Windsor Beans" (y también "English" y hasta "Scotch beans") más frecuentemente en las colonias anglo-américanas, por lo tanto supongo que tengas razón por la observación de la Casa de Windsor, whether as being for royalty, or even getting them bred, especially since they are the las habas más sabrosas, y estas variedades fueron mejoradas en el hoy Reino Unido!<p>A lo mejor hasta el Sr. Quevedo estará con ganas de unos chícharos y ejotes. O serán judías (riñones, rojas, "franceses", etc), habichuelas, fabas, habas, guisantes, frijoles (etc., etc.), alubias (riñones, pintas, negras etc.), garbanzos, cubaces, etc. Son todos sabrosos!!!! <p>Te encargo la siguiente receta que acabo de encontrar, que uses solo la variedad de "Windsor Beans", pasadas, para acompañarnos en nuestra conversación de cerezas y frijoles sabrosos!!<p>Bien Correspondida con Mis Sabrosos Saludos,<p>(En Inglés, por supuesto)
A traditional old English country wine.<p>2 kg shelled green faba beans, too old and "black in the eye" for normal use
1 lemon, thinly pared
4 liters water
250 g chopped sultanas (sun dried golden raisins should work, even if not labeled as the Persian Sultana variety of raisins)
cereal yeast and yeast nutrient (ammonium phosphate+vitamin B1)
1 kg white sugar
Campden tablet (commonly used in winemaking: sodium or potassium metabisulphite)

Boil the beans and lemon rind in the water for 1 hour, then cool. Strain the liquor onto the chopped sultanas, add the lemon juice, nutrient and active yeast. Ferment in a large covered vessel for 5 days, pressing the fruit down daily. Strain out and press the sultanas, stir in the sugar, pour the must into a fermentation jar, fit an air lock and ferment out. Decant or siphon into a clear jar, add one crushed Campden tablet and when clear decant again. Mature wine for 9 months before bottling and serve it cold and dry. <p>: Thanks David for the additional information and the recipe...
: now if I can just rustle up a toga...to start cooking!<p>: > For Canada, the largest seeded version of Fabas, the Windsor varieties, are the best tasting, refined in England. <p>: Would that be the Royal House of Windsor then, playing around with those beans;^)<p>: Now... before Señor Quevedo reminds us gently that this is a form in which to learn Spanish...
: please consider communicating here about topics such as this... in Spanish. Along with an English translation...this would be most appreciated. <p>: I find that it really helpful when people converse here in Spanish about topics that they have a passion for. Why? <p>: It stimulates me to 'think' in Spanish and imagine that I am participating in a conversation between amigos ...en una restaurante con cerezas y frijoles sabrosos;^) Abrazos Wendy<p>: <p>


DavidMTY

Jul 12, 2002, 12:41 PM

Post #16 of 17 (7081 views)

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I don't know beans

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Hi Angelina, thanks for compliments, they certainly won't go to my head until Wendy shares some of that old English Faba bean wine with us. My hobby in veggies and fruits started by living next door to what I think is the biggest "tropical" garden not in the tropics and sneaking over the fence and eating everything in the second biggest, an experimental vegetable introduction station. After going through phases of traveling into some of the most biologically rich floral regions of the world, I got bitten by the history hobby, fantasizing that I was Marco Polo or some foolishness like that, with a huge imagination in good fun. Then I spent some time studying biochemistry which I later was able to apply working for a vegetable breeding company. I am just passing along stuff, complemented by language help from the internet, from the guys (and gals) who really know their onions, and their beans ("Large Seed" as the industry prefers to generalize)!! Origins of veggies were a special area of interest for me after starting up nutritional projects to discover and reintroduce nutritive substances bred out of modern veggies, even to combat diseases. If you only could imagine how complex those tomatos are!!!, and the folks that work with them, you would be amazed as I was. And to think that carrots were always orange and tomatos always red...<p>Saludos y bienvenida a la mesa!
David(MTY)<p>: Dios Mio David! Eres un genio. What do you do for a living? How did you learn so much about beans?<p>
: : My goodness David@! Brilliant way to make a point! KUDOS to you.<p>: : : Thanks too. Just a clarification with all due respects to the richness of the interesting and practical Spanglish language (I haven't checked the link you posted yet, will do). Chícharo is also accepted by Castillian Spanish, though they consider ejote a regionalism for Mexico and Central America.<p>: : : Both words you asked about sound like they are in fact part of Spanglish, and they probably are. But, they have been parts of other hybrid languages before and have ancient roots!<p>: : : Guisante (Castillian Spanish Dialect)
: : : Pisos (Greek)
: : : Pisum (Latin)
: : : Pease (Archaic English)
: : : Guisante (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic, adopted by Castillian dialect)
: : : _Pisum sativum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the English pea or Green pea)<p>: : :
: : : "Rooted" in the same time frame we had:
: : : cicer, cicero (Latin)
: : : Chick(pea) or Ceci (English)
: : : Chícharo (Corrupted Latin: Arabo-Romance Spanish Dialect Mozarabic)
: : : _Cicer arietinum_ (Modern day binomial scientific name of the Chick pea or garbanzo bean)<p>: : : All above are from two different ancient "roots", and the original "pease" were from Central Asia. Now, just because the green pea in popular use in English has its roots the same scientific genus as the word guisante and chícharo doesn't, but rather the chick pea, really has nothing to do with one being more correct or appropriate than the other. Scientific names were not standardized until after the mid 1700's. By that time, Spanish Mexico was had a language over two centuries old. As far as the green pea being actually recognized as different from the Chick pea, that is also a relativly modern event, as the English worked on domesticating it between 1200 - 1700. Many proper US southern ladies still refer to the pea as the English Pea, (they have chick pea, black-eyed pea) which shows that in the US their was equal acceptance of "pea" to apply to anything from both genera, green or not.<p>: : : Ejote is an easier one. In English Bean is a very general term. It is directly an addition of exoyo (Exotl) from the Nahuatl language by hybridizing to sounds to be more hispanic. The Green Beans=String Beans=Snap Beans in English in one of many, many current form have been bred since ancient times and do not have the same genome as the wide variety of beans of our ancestors, and the term has been used to describe many large seeds, in edible pods or not, from many parts of the world. So Ejote has just as fair a claim to be be an accepted word when the Real Academia decides it and it is heard more often outside Mexico & C.A. It is definitely the preferred word in Mexico,probably since the times of Cortez when the Spanish raided and were gifted with the native "beans". The only way to restrict the use of any of these words is to do a lot of research and come up with specific names for each bean, perhaps such as the "faba bean".<p>: : : Hope that is a cornucopia for thought...David(MTY)<p>: : :
: : : : Thanks, these are the words I was familiar with but I looked in a dictionary and peas were called "guisantes" and greenbeans were " los porotos; las habichuelas or las judias". Im presently living in Canada, but grew up along the Texas/Mexico border so my "Spanish" is more of a "Spanglish". I'm trying to teach my little girl "Spanish" and wanted to make sure that ejotes and chicharo were the proper terms. <p>


DavidMTY

Jul 12, 2002, 1:22 PM

Post #17 of 17 (7094 views)

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Qué padre y gracias! Espero que no se me separen las fibras de la soya:) (nmm)

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: : Hi Wendy, thanks for letting me know at least one person is reading the bean scrolls:)<p>: : Yes they certainly are one in the same, depending on your Latin or Italian it was confused throughout history as you can see in haba (Spain) and Fava (Italy). If you have any doubt still, just confirm that the "eyes" where your faba beans connect to the pod are on the end, and not in the middle.<p>: : Now, of course they are the earliest season "beans" you can get, as they were bred for nearly 10,000 years from the temperate zone for the temperate zone, as far north as you can get, i.e., Northern Europe, Persia northward, as well as Turkey, Egypt, etc. Not wimpy tropical Mexican stock. In a prior post I mentioned that would probably be better described as a "pea", but if you want to split hairs (or peas, jaja), fabas are really just Vetches. You know, relatives of that weedy vine that grows on fences everywhere. (In california it turns roadsides purple in flowers -all these are not faba, but other wild purple-flowered Vetches. If you look at their pods, you can appreciate the relationship.) For Canada, the largest seeded version of Fabas, the Windsor varieties, are the best tasting, refined in England. The faba beans are more nutritious than the Haricot beans from Mexico. As a matter of fact there was a lot of sickness caused from deficiencies on voyages when conquistadores made the bean switch.<p>: : Best eating...David(MTY) <p>: : Ancient Roman recipe - 2nd century
: : Fava Beans alla Vitellius
: : 4 servings <p>: : 3 lbs. Fresh Unshelled Fava Beans
: : 2 Leeks
: : 2 Tbsp (mixed) coriander, mallow flowers (tea or health food shop), garden lovage (_Levisticum officinale_, Sp. Apio de montaña, substitute celery if must), oregano and fennel seeds
: : pepper to taste
: : 1 Tbsp. Garum (Fish Sauce approximated by todays Vietnamese/Chinese Nuc Nam or Nam Pla, if in a bind and really must, substitute is salt)
: : 1 Cup White Wine
: : Olive oil to taste <p>: : Shell the beans, removing the umbilical cord of each bean. Boil in a little lightly salted water until they produce a froth, then add the leeks, herbs, and pepper. <p>: : When the leeks are soft drain the excess water and add the wine, some
: : olive oil and garum to the pan bring to the boil and cook to evaporate the alcohol. When the beans are cooked put into a serving dish and pour over fresh extra virgin olive oil and serve. <p>: :
: : : David,<p>: : : Thanks for the interesting posting about all the types of beans...
: : : but pray tell...would the Faba beans that you describe be the self-same Fava beans growing in my garden? The description sounds the same...and with a little trade of a b for a v...<p>: : : Here, fava beans are the earliest ripening type of bean that you can grow...any day now... I'll be steaming that first crop!<p>: : : Saludos de Canada Wendy<p>
 
 
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