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Hank Duckman

Jul 17, 2002, 10:54 AM

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"altisonante" revisited...the truth shall set you free

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"altisonante"<p>Thought I'd clarify things with respect to the word "altisonante".
I came across two short articles in the newspaper "La Voz de Michoacan" which illustrate my assertion in the thread of July 5, that "altisonante" can mean "pompous, arrogant, presumptuous". <p>This illustrates an important point...that the definition of a given word must be considered in the context in which it is used.<p>The Larousse Unabridged does not give the "utilizados por locutores de radio" or of "groserias" definition at all.<p>The thread began with:<p>John R: <p>"La buena gente de Zapopan, o por lo menos sus representantes han aprobado una medida municipal para castigar el acto de "proferir palabras altisonates."
Supuestamente el reglamento se aplica a groserias, pero no encuentro ningun diccionario que define "altisonante" como grosero o obseno.
Por la definicion de la Real Academia, parece ser el tono utilizado por locutores de radio."<p>Hank Duckman:<p>"Creo que el sentido de "altisonante" es uno de pomposidad o de presuntuosidad? No considero que todos los locutores de radio tienen este estilo."<p>Jim from Cancun:<p>"altisonante. (De alti- y sonante).
1. adj. altísono. Se dice, por lo común, del lenguaje o estilo en que se emplean con frecuencia o afectadamente voces de las más llenas y sonoras." (See link below.)
and about "altísono" it says:<p>"altísono, na. (Del lat. altiso(nus).
1. adj. Altamente sonoro, de alto sonido. Se dice del lenguaje o estilo muy sonoro y elevado y del escritor que se distingue empleando lenguaje o estilo de esta clase."
Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados"
And now to agree with John R--the definition in the DRAE does not necessarily reflect the common usage in every nook and cranny of the Spanish-speaking world. The word means what it means to the person(s) using it.
After all Not even Presidents know "what the meaning of 'is' is" and no dictionary can define it for every usage.
Has anyone ever has the experience of speaking "directly" and having someone say "¡No me grites!"????? When you weren't even "yelling" at all--just speaking plainly?? Part of the culture against speaking without the linguistic "amenities."<p><p>Hank: What follows is from a daily column, written by the "pseudonymic"
Toca Mal. <p>
""SEÑORES ahi les hablan.- RESULTA QUE MONTARON una oficina del PRD en el numero 302 de la calle Alemania, en el fraccionamiento Valle Quieto, que dejó de ser valle y quieto, ahora vera usted por qué.
Resulta que a esas oficinas ilegan muchos politicos y estacionan
sus autos donde se les pega la gana, TAPANDO COCHERAS. Total ya
se imaginará el coraje de los vecinos. Una señora de plano
se les enfrentó pero - como dicen los chavos: "la manda-
ron por un tubo" y eso no fue todo, sino que EN FORMA MUY DESPOTA,
con palabras ALTISONANTES, Le advertieron que "esto
iba a ser de domingo a lunes nos pareciera o no y que le hi-
ciera como quisiera". Esto nos dice la señora Edith Tinoco
Lopez y TOCA MAL mete su cuchara, para pedir a don
Uriel, el mero mero del PRD estatal, que recomiende a sus
cuates que mejor se la lleven tranquila con los vecinos, pues
con esos AIRES DE PREPOTENCIA al final les restan votos. Cons-
te... Servida, senora Tinoco. Ahora que si nos mandan a fre-
ir espárragos, nos dice, ¿si? que ya encontraremos otra ma-
nera de protestar.""<p>
Hank: Note that the "politicos" spoke to the Señora" in a despotic way "con palabras altisonantes" and they were acting with "aires de prepotencia". <p>
This next article uses "altisonante" describing the tone in which
threats of death were made over the phone:<p>""Tras la revisión al Cereso local la madrugada del viernes 21
de junio del presente año, los directores de Prevención y
Readaptación Social, Raúl Oseguera Madrigal y el del Cereso
Morelia, Armando Silva Quintero, recibieron varias amena-
zas de muerte vía telefónica en sus respectivas oficinas, en las
que con palabras ALTISONANTES les exigen que detengan los operativos,
traslados y revisiones en los ceresos.""<p>Hank: I don't think the connotation of "altisonante" here is one of high style used by a radio announcer. Now, with all due respect to Jim (Cancun), who once asserted that the dictionary did not a language make, he now seems to be relying heavily on the DRAE which did not seem to cover the "pomposo, grandilocuente" connotation.<p>Jim said: "The word means what it means to the person(s) using it."<p>
Hank: I disagree! This implies a person can make up his own language with no regard to the standard norms. This calls up the image of a "tower of Babel".<p>Jim also said: "and no dictionary can define it [ a word] for every usage."<p>Hank: I dare Jim to show me an English word in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary" where "every usage" is not covered :>)
If no such Spanish language dictionary exists, I guess we'll have to use at least two or three different ones to affirm correctness.<p>
Saludos;<p>Hank
<p> <p>



DavidMTY

Jul 17, 2002, 11:37 AM

Post #2 of 10 (4700 views)

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&quot;altisonante&quot; revisited...the truth shall set you free

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Looks like you guys covered this one well, so I'll stay out of the general lexographic issues, and stick to one additional angle to consider, which is pure conjecture on my part.<p>The thread was started because of some law, right?
They didn't use the term groserías probably because there is always the wise-guy who will say: "Ass" isn't a grosería, it is in the "nice" dictionary and it equates his behavior to an animal which is how I meant it. Now a defamation suit is filed. It is proved that ass is not a grosería and the defendant smugly laughes at the plaintiff and calls him an ass one more time for good measure.<p>So, with this foresight the law was designed to prevent such wiseguys from getting off scot free.
"Altisonante" is left open to interpretation and it has been an interesting discussion thread to follow.<p>The angle I would add, is that if it is a legal term, the right place to look for its definition is not always in the standard dictionaries, but rather in the body of law itself. And just because the law itself defines the term, does not mean it is the general term, accepted by everyone, just the term referred to by law. For example when buying a house, in your contract you may be "Comprador" for legal purposes, it's the same idea.
As to the disagreement between you and Jim regarding whether anyone can use a word for whatever they want, that is a different argument and we see who the liberals and conservatives are. Legislation is competent to make their own definitions to assist the spirit of the application of the law. Whether Joe Smoe has the same authority to make his own language up and still have it called Spanish, you can keep hammering out...
My 2¢ worth.
Best...David(MTY)<p>
: "altisonante"<p>: Thought I'd clarify things with respect to the word "altisonante".
: I came across two short articles in the newspaper "La Voz de Michoacan" which illustrate my assertion in the thread of July 5, that "altisonante" can mean "pompous, arrogant, presumptuous". <p>: This illustrates an important point...that the definition of a given word must be considered in the context in which it is used.<p>: The Larousse Unabridged does not give the "utilizados por locutores de radio" or of "groserias" definition at all.<p>: The thread began with:<p>: John R: <p>: "La buena gente de Zapopan, o por lo menos sus representantes han aprobado una medida municipal para castigar el acto de "proferir palabras altisonates."
: Supuestamente el reglamento se aplica a groserias, pero no encuentro ningun diccionario que define "altisonante" como grosero o obseno.
: Por la definicion de la Real Academia, parece ser el tono utilizado por locutores de radio."<p>: Hank Duckman:<p>: "Creo que el sentido de "altisonante" es uno de pomposidad o de presuntuosidad? No considero que todos los locutores de radio tienen este estilo."<p>: Jim from Cancun:<p>: "altisonante. (De alti- y sonante).
: 1. adj. altísono. Se dice, por lo común, del lenguaje o estilo en que se emplean con frecuencia o afectadamente voces de las más llenas y sonoras." (See link below.)
: and about "altísono" it says:<p>: "altísono, na. (Del lat. altiso(nus).
: 1. adj. Altamente sonoro, de alto sonido. Se dice del lenguaje o estilo muy sonoro y elevado y del escritor que se distingue empleando lenguaje o estilo de esta clase."
: Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados"
: And now to agree with John R--the definition in the DRAE does not necessarily reflect the common usage in every nook and cranny of the Spanish-speaking world. The word means what it means to the person(s) using it.
: After all Not even Presidents know "what the meaning of 'is' is" and no dictionary can define it for every usage.
: Has anyone ever has the experience of speaking "directly" and having someone say "¡No me grites!"????? When you weren't even "yelling" at all--just speaking plainly?? Part of the culture against speaking without the linguistic "amenities."<p>
: Hank: What follows is from a daily column, written by the "pseudonymic"
: Toca Mal. <p>:
: ""SEÑORES ahi les hablan.- RESULTA QUE MONTARON una oficina del PRD en el numero 302 de la calle Alemania, en el fraccionamiento Valle Quieto, que dejó de ser valle y quieto, ahora vera usted por qué.
: Resulta que a esas oficinas ilegan muchos politicos y estacionan
: sus autos donde se les pega la gana, TAPANDO COCHERAS. Total ya
: se imaginará el coraje de los vecinos. Una señora de plano
: se les enfrentó pero - como dicen los chavos: "la manda-
: ron por un tubo" y eso no fue todo, sino que EN FORMA MUY DESPOTA,
: con palabras ALTISONANTES, Le advertieron que "esto
: iba a ser de domingo a lunes nos pareciera o no y que le hi-
: ciera como quisiera". Esto nos dice la señora Edith Tinoco
: Lopez y TOCA MAL mete su cuchara, para pedir a don
: Uriel, el mero mero del PRD estatal, que recomiende a sus
: cuates que mejor se la lleven tranquila con los vecinos, pues
: con esos AIRES DE PREPOTENCIA al final les restan votos. Cons-
: te... Servida, senora Tinoco. Ahora que si nos mandan a fre-
: ir espárragos, nos dice, ¿si? que ya encontraremos otra ma-
: nera de protestar.""<p>:
: Hank: Note that the "politicos" spoke to the Señora" in a despotic way "con palabras altisonantes" and they were acting with "aires de prepotencia". <p>:
: This next article uses "altisonante" describing the tone in which
: threats of death were made over the phone:<p>: ""Tras la revisión al Cereso local la madrugada del viernes 21
: de junio del presente año, los directores de Prevención y
: Readaptación Social, Raúl Oseguera Madrigal y el del Cereso
: Morelia, Armando Silva Quintero, recibieron varias amena-
: zas de muerte vía telefónica en sus respectivas oficinas, en las
: que con palabras ALTISONANTES les exigen que detengan los operativos,
: traslados y revisiones en los ceresos.""<p>: Hank: I don't think the connotation of "altisonante" here is one of high style used by a radio announcer. Now, with all due respect to Jim (Cancun), who once asserted that the dictionary did not a language make, he now seems to be relying heavily on the DRAE which did not seem to cover the "pomposo, grandilocuente" connotation.<p>: Jim said: "The word means what it means to the person(s) using it."<p>:
: Hank: I disagree! This implies a person can make up his own language with no regard to the standard norms. This calls up the image of a "tower of Babel".<p>: Jim also said: "and no dictionary can define it [ a word] for every usage."<p>: Hank: I dare Jim to show me an English word in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary" where "every usage" is not covered :>)
: If no such Spanish language dictionary exists, I guess we'll have to use at least two or three different ones to affirm correctness.<p>:
: Saludos;<p>: Hank
: <p>: <p>


Hank Duckman

Jul 17, 2002, 12:03 PM

Post #3 of 10 (4696 views)

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&quot;altisonante&quot; revisited...the truth shall set you free

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: The thread was started because of some law, right?
: They didn't use the term groserías probably because there is always the wise-guy who will say: "Ass" isn't a grosería, it is in the "nice" dictionary and it equates his behavior to an animal which is how I meant it. Now a defamation suit is filed. It is proved that ass is not a grosería and the defendant smugly laughes at the plaintiff and calls him an ass one more time for good measure.<p>David;<p>Your point is well taken. Does this mean I'm going to have to repair to the nearest bookstore for a "law" dictionary? My poor bookshelf!<p>
Saludos;<p>Hank


arbon

Jul 17, 2002, 12:24 PM

Post #4 of 10 (4697 views)

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A word in a book.

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I think the word "DARE" is incorrect in the following sentence,

: Hank: I dare Jim to show me an English word in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary" where "every usage" is not covered :>)<p> a dare always denotes courage and courage is not needed to look in
"The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary"
"Challenge" is the word to use.<p>


arbon

Jul 17, 2002, 12:33 PM

Post #5 of 10 (4697 views)

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because of some law, right?

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In England,you can not call a "Duchess" a "Pig".(within the "Law")
But you can call your "Pig" "Duchess"<p>
: The thread was started because of some law, right?
: They didn't use the term groserías probably because there is always the wise-guy who will say: "Ass" isn't a grosería, it is in the "nice" dictionary and it equates his behavior to an animal which is how I meant it. Now a defamation suit is filed. It is proved that ass is not a grosería and the defendant smugly laughes at the plaintiff and calls him an ass one more time for good measure.<p>: So, with this foresight the law was designed to prevent such wiseguys from getting off scot free.


Hank Duckman

Jul 17, 2002, 4:23 PM

Post #6 of 10 (4697 views)

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A word in a book....&quot;dare&quot;

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Arbon;<p>I beg to differ with you.<p>: I think the word "DARE" is incorrect in the following sentence,
:
: : Hank: I dare Jim to show me an English word in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary" where "every usage" is not covered :>)<p>: a dare always denotes courage and courage is not needed to look in
: "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary"
: "Challenge" is the word to use.<p>The word "dare" also means "challenge" and this definition is also present in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary". In case you're not familiar with it, it's about 4000 pages, very complete and thorough.<p>Looking up words in it is indeed somewhat of a challenge, not only because of its weight and unwieldyness, but because of its tiny print. The word "dare" is perfectly appropriate.<p>Saludos;<p>Hank <p><p>


DavidMTY

Jul 17, 2002, 11:24 PM

Post #7 of 10 (4696 views)

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Truth or Dare?

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As if you asked for a peep from me...<p>And to stay on the subject:<p>Would "I dare you to nip Natalie on the nape?" be translated as:<p>¿Te reto que le muerdes a Natalia en la nuca? <p>Best...David(MTY)<p>: Arbon;<p>: I beg to differ with you.<p>: : I think the word "DARE" is incorrect in the following sentence,
: :
: : : Hank: I dare Jim to show me an English word in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary" where "every usage" is not covered :>)<p>: : a dare always denotes courage and courage is not needed to look in
: : "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary"
: : "Challenge" is the word to use.<p>: The word "dare" also means "challenge" and this definition is also present in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary". In case you're not familiar with it, it's about 4000 pages, very complete and thorough.<p>: Looking up words in it is indeed somewhat of a challenge, not only because of its weight and unwieldyness, but because of its tiny print. The word "dare" is perfectly appropriate.<p>: Saludos;<p>: Hank <p>


Hank Duckman

Jul 18, 2002, 10:19 AM

Post #8 of 10 (4702 views)

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Truth or Dare?

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I suppose it would pass Arbon's definition if: (1)Natalie weighed 200 lbs., pumped iron, and was gay or (2)If Natalie's neck were contaminated with virulent, pathological material :>)<p>: Would "I dare you to nip Natalie on the nape?" be translated as:<p>: ¿Te reto que le muerdes a Natalia en la nuca? <p>: Best...David(MTY)<p><p>: : : I think the word "DARE" is incorrect in the following sentence,
: : :
: : : : Hank: I dare Jim to show me an English word in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary" where "every usage" is not covered :>)<p>: : : a dare always denotes courage and courage is not needed to look in
: : : "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary"
: : : "Challenge" is the word to use.<p>: : The word "dare" also means "challenge" and this definition is also present in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary". In case you're not familiar with it, it's about 4000 pages, very complete and thorough.<p>: : Looking up words in it is indeed somewhat of a challenge, not only because of its weight and unwieldyness, but because of its tiny print. The word "dare" is perfectly appropriate.<p>: : Saludos;<p>: : Hank <p>


arbon

Jul 18, 2002, 11:53 AM

Post #9 of 10 (4697 views)

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Truth or Dare?

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Hank, I think now you are talking about the "Duchess" (Natalie & the germ"Theory")

and I failed to convey that having lived in England for 26 years,that I know the word "Dare" is used differently in England than in Canada or the States.(it was in response to your mention of the "Oxford" 20 volume dictionary reduced to 1 or 2 Volumes + Magnifying glass)<p>: I suppose it would pass Arbon's definition if: (1)Natalie weighed 200 lbs., pumped iron, and was gay or (2)If Natalie's neck were contaminated with virulent, pathological material :>)<p>: : Would "I dare you to nip Natalie on the nape?" be translated as:<p>: : ¿Te reto que le muerdes a Natalia en la nuca? <p>: : Best...David(MTY)<p>
: : : : I think the word "DARE" is incorrect in the following sentence,
: : : :
: : : : : Hank: I dare Jim to show me an English word in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary" where "every usage" is not covered :>)<p>: : : : a dare always denotes courage and courage is not needed to look in
: : : : "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary"
: : : : "Challenge" is the word to use.<p>: : : The word "dare" also means "challenge" and this definition is also present in "The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary". In case you're not familiar with it, it's about 4000 pages, very complete and thorough.<p>: : : Looking up words in it is indeed somewhat of a challenge, not only because of its weight and unwieldyness, but because of its tiny print. The word "dare" is perfectly appropriate.<p>: : : Saludos;<p>: : : Hank <p>


Hank Duckman

Jul 18, 2002, 4:32 PM

Post #10 of 10 (4708 views)

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Truth or Dare?

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Arbon;<p>No, I was responding to David(MTY)'s post about biting Natalie on the neck.<p>And it's not just in England. The same usage holds true for the U.S. where I lived for 50+ years :<) <p>You said I used the word "dare" inappropriately because there has to be an implied danger. The type of danger is relative and in my comment about the Oxford dictionary, the danger implied was dropping it on one's foot or going blind from trying to see the words...of course the dare was "tongue in cheek" with a bit of humor to make my point.<p>Just like when we were kids, (in the US) and someone dared another to kiss a pretty girl classmate.<p>But having lived in England all that time, you probably already know all this. <p>
Saludos;<p>Hank<p>: Hank, I think now you are talking about the "Duchess" (Natalie & the germ"Theory")
: and I failed to convey that having lived in England for 26 years,that I know the word "Dare" is used differently in England than in Canada or the States.(it was in response to your mention of the "Oxford" 20 volume dictionary reduced to 1 or 2 Volumes + Magnifying glass)<p>
 
 
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