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pat

Nov 17, 2007, 5:03 PM

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Re: [Gwynne] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Yep, I have used that argument myself... but in the post above, I was simply correcting the math.

Pat


pat

Nov 17, 2007, 5:20 PM

Post #52 of 84 (12053 views)

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Re: [pat] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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On the other hand, if Bloviator can rent a home for $1,000 to $1,500 that is equivalent to the one he is paying $2,500+ per month to own, renting sounds to me like a good deal.

In a market where there is a glut of homes on the resale market, like there is where I live in the US, low rental rates can make renting an attractive option. Here, you are more likely to see lower rental rates if the owner of the rental home bought the home before the rampant increase in home prices of 2003-2005. Owners who bought during the high appreciation period need higher rents to pay their mortgages. The same probably applies there as well.

Pat


GueroPaz

Nov 17, 2007, 6:38 PM

Post #53 of 84 (12041 views)

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Re: [Gwynne] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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In finance, a sunk cost is considered a lost opportunity. When you 'invest' your savings in a house, you lose the chance to earn income on it somewhere else. If you just need a home, absolutely must own, then you force yourself into thinking you must put most of your life's savings into real estate that doesn't fit into your suitcase. I gave up on that during the Texas property crash of the 1980's, and now I just find cheap rent.

As Americans in certain neighborhoods are learning, not all home prices go up. Not all houses are good investments. This is far more common in countries where expatriates pay too much for the wrong housing. My sister may take years to sell her desirable property in a good suburb of Orlando. I live in a country where rental properties only gross 6% a year, if the tenant pays every month. Not good investment property, but it's great to pay about US$200 a month for two bedrooms, two baths, surburban property on two creeks, etc.


Georgia


Nov 17, 2007, 7:59 PM

Post #54 of 84 (12031 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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No, you don't. In the past six years the level of the lake has risen and the value of our home has probably doubled, based on what I see in the real estate ads. The adds up to no rent.


Gringal

Nov 17, 2007, 8:43 PM

Post #55 of 84 (12023 views)

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Re: [Gwynne] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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You're not fiscally impaired. You just missed a stop on the route is all.

Let's say you have 200K in your savings account.
You can take the 200K and put it in Treasury Bills or some other secure investment. If you get 5% interest on it, that will yield $10,000 a year. Divided by 12 is a little over $833 per month. If that's all you pay in rent, then you still have your original 200K in the bank and have only spent the interest on the money for your rent.

If you buy a house with the 200K, you won't get any interest on the money. You will pay taxes on the house (which you wouldn't on a rental) and repairs (ditto). When you are ready to sell the house, you may or may not get your original 200K investment back out of it. Consider the market in the U.S. right now. People will be selling for less than they paid. If you are lucky, you may get more than your 200K. All of this is in the lap of the gods.

In other words, it doesn't make matter that the rent is gone. Owning the house means that the interest is gone. Same difference. Housing will cost you something, one way or the other.

Hope that helps with the fiscally confusing world of home buying vs. renting.

Cute dogs in the picture.


Bloviator

Nov 18, 2007, 6:06 AM

Post #56 of 84 (12001 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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While it is very likely that home values will go up over time, in the current market that is not happening. If you bought five years ago, you are way ahead of the game. If you bought last year, you are not and are not likely to be for the next several years - though no one can predict with any certainty what the market will be in the future.

Incidentally, I was wrong in my $2,500 figure (or I'm a very shrewd investor who gets great returns). The $2,000 figure is more likely accurate.


donemry

Nov 18, 2007, 6:19 AM

Post #57 of 84 (11999 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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The buy/rent examples prevously presented are overly simplistic and rely on the dramatic extremes to prove the points. Not all real estate markets will provide equity and not all will cause a loss. If have not bought your house in the last 3 or 4 years, how much is your house worth against today's market in YOUR area? The 5% return suggested on investments may be either high or low, depeninding on timing and the specific investment.

Historical events are not reliable indicators of future events. For example, had one bought after the "Texas real estate crash of the 80's" and held until today, what would the equity increase be? If one bought quality stocks in 2002, after the "dot com" bubble, what is the current value.

In both of these examples, there were many who said to buy was to be foolish.

It is much easier to suggest doing nothing or offering a negative viewpoint on a situation. Such advice from non-participants carries no risk or responsibilityon the art of the advisor. If they are right they will crow. If they are wrong, they just conveniently forget that they said it. Unfortunately, critics are only judged on the times they are right, not the times they are wrong.

Beware of simple advice that contains an anecdote.


Gringal

Nov 18, 2007, 7:32 AM

Post #58 of 84 (11985 views)

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Re: [donemry] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Since your post addressed mine, shall I assume you were referring to the material in it? I hope not.

My intent was not to encourage anyone to either buy or rent. It was to explain to another poster who has the misconception that rent in "gone", how the basic principle works, in laymans' terms. It is not a simple subject, and as I stated in that post, the outcome is not predictable. If I had a crystal ball, I would be much wealthier. As it is, I have been investing in real estate all my life, through good and bad markets. I have won and lost on my speculations. Fortunately, most have ended on the positive side.

You are entirely correct that anecdotal evidence is not reliable. "Buy here and you'll double your money in five years" is the hucksters' promise. Tell that one to the folks who bought at the peak of the market in the U.S. and are now learning that the market goes down as well as up.

We could spend an entire thread on whether renting is better than buying or vice versa. That's not the topic, so I've left that one alone. Since I'm a homeowner in Ajijic, I voted with my feet. I have friends who could well afford to buy, but won't do so because they like the freedom and flexibility of renting. Getting back to our topic, they claim that they can live much better on less by doing so here in Mexico.


Septiembre


Nov 18, 2007, 8:50 AM

Post #59 of 84 (11970 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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I agree that a more representative comparison is to compare places that are more similar in ambiance. For example, one might compare San Miguel with Santa Fe here in NM. Or even Albuquerque.

We are fortunate in that we currently live in a relatively low cost of living place, Albuqueque. When comparing our new home in Ajijic with our current home here, the former actually will cost more than the latter. However, that is because we are in effect replacing one primary residence with two part-time locales.

We'll need to maintain all of our insurances up here plus have some for there, we'll spend more money flying back and forth, etc. This is necessitated by both our continuing business interests in Texas plus just simply the way we want to live.

Now if you try to compare Ajijic with places in the states, the first thing you'll realize is that there are VERY few that boast that quality of climate plus the ability to live in a village environment where one can walk to so many shops and restaurants. So on that basis, a fair comparison would be with some of the California coastal communities, which is really not comparable at all because the cost of living in these is truly stratospheric.

The closer one tries to fully duplicated the "gringo" NOB lifestyle, the less cheap Mexico gets. And vice versa.


Brian

Nov 18, 2007, 9:07 AM

Post #60 of 84 (11961 views)

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Re: [Septiembre] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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I agree that a more representative comparison is to compare places that are more similar in ambiance. For example, one might compare San Miguel with Santa Fe here in NM. Or even Albuquerque.


Ambiance, in itself, does not involve cost. Goods and services do. At Gringal's suggestion, I have tried to think of a city in the USA to compare with SMA but I haven't been able to come up with one where the municipal water supply is not potable. I really do think it is somewhat disingenuous to claim lower taxes as being in Mexico's favor in comparing cost of living. If you don't pay for government services ..you don't get any. The lower cost of living for foreigners in Mexico is borne on the shoulders of their Mexican neighbors. Paying only the equivalent of 3USD per hour to a maid or gardener certainly is a great deal but it is also an example of the abysmally low wages which cannot sustain their families and forces so many to the United States to work. I don't remember the "ambience" in Santa Fe as involving luxurious homes being built right next door to "casas humildes" such as they are in SMA. It's all in your perspective as to what constitutes a "more representative comparison".

saludos
Brian


(This post was edited by Brian on Nov 18, 2007, 12:37 PM)


robrt8

Nov 18, 2007, 6:24 PM

Post #61 of 84 (11906 views)

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Re: [Brian] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Concerning "ambiance":
Take, for example, the price people are willing to pay for popcorn in a theater. That same "cost" could get you a month's supply at Costco.
The comparative cost of DSL is interesting, but it doesn't say a lot.
It's also disingenuous of Brian to say the lower cost of living in Mexico is borne by our Mexican neighbors. That is not true.


(This post was edited by robrt8 on Nov 18, 2007, 7:48 PM)


bbeitz


Nov 19, 2007, 3:43 AM

Post #62 of 84 (11868 views)

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Re: [Brian] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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"The lower cost of living for foreigners in Mexico is borne on the shoulders of their Mexican neighbors. Paying only the equivalent of 3USD per hour to a maid or gardener certainly is a great deal but it is also an example of the abysmally low wages which cannot sustain their families and forces so many to the United States to work."


That may be true but my understanding is that the pay for those same maids and gardeners living and working in an area devoid of many foreigners can be as low as the equivalent of 1USD per hour or lower. It seems to me that three times more income may allow more workers to stay in mexico with their families and live better. In any case we foreigners make up a very small percentage of employers in Mexico. I feel you give us too much credit. The greatest credit for this problem rests on the shoulders of the many more than on the few.

bbeitz
It is better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.


Bloviator

Nov 19, 2007, 6:45 AM

Post #63 of 84 (11841 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Ditto to Gringal's post. I was not advocating anything for anyone. I was merely observing that in today's market rent is cheaper than owning lakeside and that the market is currently stalled and, while likely to go up as the baby boomers arrive, likely will not go up soon - though I added the caviat that one can't tell.

If I did not want to be flexible due to health reasons and the possibility of having to leave the area in a big hurry, the market conditions would not likely matter. However, renting would give the flexibility that I feel is necessary FOR ME ONLY at this time. This is not advice for anyone.

However, as the late (only here) great (when not tequila fueled) Bubba said, "Never invest more in Mexico than you can afford to lose." That is advice - though from Bubba and not from me. Most of us would rather not lose the value of our homes.

Let's all remember that the topic under discussion is cost of living here vs somewhere else. The cost of housing is a valid part of the equation.


(This post was edited by Bloviator on Nov 19, 2007, 6:50 AM)


jennifer rose

Nov 19, 2007, 7:36 AM

Post #64 of 84 (11831 views)

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Re: [bbeitz] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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The same foreigners who decry the low wages paid for household help seem to delight in paying lower fees to skilled professionals in Mexico. How many times have we heard shrieks of glee over paying far less for medical services, just as one example, in this country? Those foreigners forget that even physicians make far, far less than their counterparts in the U.S. and Canada. And those professionals also pay for household help. Teachers make less in this country, and so too do many businesspeople and government workers. And even foreigners who legally work in this country. Why am I not hearing a battle cry to increase their pay scale?

The same foreigners who talk about living in Mexico on Social Security or a fixed income just don't realize the monies delivered to them on a regular basis exceed what many others far more skilled than household help are making in this country.


(This post was edited by jennifer rose on Nov 21, 2007, 7:51 AM)


roni_smith


Nov 20, 2007, 8:48 PM

Post #65 of 84 (11756 views)

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Re: [scubabride] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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That is about the same as each the women in San Miguel. Someone speculated that it could be as much as $4,000 US. He was right, it could be, but it is not.





In Reply To
Well I am your perfect SSDI average example. I receive 1193 USD per month and as I posted I am doing fine. Now I do not have a maid or gardner, but then I sure did not have those in the states while raising 5 children either. I do have a teen age Mexican girl and her little sister who have sort of adopted me, and since I let them do thier homework here, watch TV a bit and use my shower a few times a week...they help me out around the house cleaning. My quality of life is actually greatly improved here, as is my health.

------
Planning for Mexico Move Blog



jerezano

Nov 21, 2007, 7:47 AM

Post #66 of 84 (11716 views)

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Re: [roni_smith] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Hello,

Let me join the group that find it cheaper to live in Mexico than in the United States.

I am a widower and have lived here in Jerez de Garcia Salinas, Mexico for some 18 years and have built my own house so I no longer have to pay rent. I do not have Mexican health insurance.

My retirement income is such that I never have to worry about it, which is a great relief, of course. But even when I was paying rent monthly etc, etc, I have always tried to keep my Mexican expenses below $1000 us dollars a month. Most of the time except for special problems such as a week recently in a local hospital with pneumonia, I have managed to meet that goal. And that goal includes much aid and gifts to my friends who do not have the resources that I have, as well as expensive week-end dinners for friends and myself at different restaurants in Zacatecas City, occasional musical and theatrical performances for them and myself, and many vacation trips within Mexico for myself and the Mexican couple who are my two best friends. For example a 4 day trip by car to Oaxaca City to visit Monte Albán. That $1000 us dollar goal also includes a three or four day trip to the USA every three months to visit my heart specialist and pick up medicines which I cannot buy here in Mexico. It includes all costs here in Mexico but does not include the cost of the medical visits or the medicines. Those are US purchases and not part of my Mexico expenses.

As I am very tall and skinny I cannot find shoe and clothing sizes here in Mexico. So all my clothing is bought in the USA and is not included in that $1000 us dollar Mexican goal.

I also have a 6 hour per day (except Sunday and 2hour Saturday) housekeeper-cook whose salary I pay weekly as well as the Health insurance for herself and her two children. She has now worked for me for over 16 years and during that time has learned how to cook after I have paid and sent her to at least 7 different cooking schools.

So, the basic question: "Is it cheaper to live in México?"

Yes, definitely so in my case. That happens to be also true for most of my US friends who live here in Mexico, including the expensive cities of Ajijic and San Miguel de Allende. I know nothing about Bucerias, Puerto Vallarta or other Tourist towns on the coast.

But, I cannot reccomend that a person move to Mexico just because it is cheaper to live here. That person MUST be adaptable and accept different attitudes, different customs, different laws, and be willing to learn Spanish. Whoever you might be, you MUST be open minded and curious, and want to learn.

Adiós. jerezano.


yucatandreamer


Nov 21, 2007, 2:19 PM

Post #67 of 84 (11671 views)

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Re: [jerezano] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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I think most people will agree that living in Mexico can be cheaper than many locations NOB. Jerezano, I'm glad you listed some of your other expenses that you do not include into your "Mexico expenses". Otherwise your goal of being under $1,000.00 us per month might be misleading. Which leads into my thought on this subject.
Some of the longer term ex-pat residents in Mexico have adapted to their location and Mexico in general. They have learned (sometimes the hard way) to adjust their living patterns and in so doing have learned to live cheaper. That came with experience and probably some mistakes along the way. What can be misleading to those who are looking at Mexico as an alternative living choice is the reported cost of living of those experienced ex-pats. New comers to Mexico are going to have a much higher cost of living, at least for the first few years, than those who have been here for a while.
There are the obvious extra expenses like furnishing a home, renovations, etc. Where some subtle extra expenses come into play are the mistakes made in some of those purchases. Those metal food storage containers that looked so attractive in the store will have to be replaced as they rust so much quicker here. Yup, should have bought those ugly plastic bins in the first place. A person's eating habits and purchases will change. Acclimatizing to new weather will take some adjusting. The transition from vacation mode thinking to actual living in Mexico takes time. Little things like the cost of mailing packages or letters can come as a surprise. These are just but a few examples that will add to newcomers expenses. There are many more. I think one needs to be prepared to budget for higher cost of living for the first 5 years of living in Mexico to account for a learning curve. It takes work and some hard experiences to reach an economic goal of living substantially cheaper than many locations NOB. YucatanDreamer's Husband


(This post was edited by yucatandreamer on Nov 21, 2007, 2:48 PM)


Brian

Nov 21, 2007, 2:46 PM

Post #68 of 84 (11660 views)

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Re: [yucatandreamer] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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After living ten years in Mexico and becoming acclimated to both Tijuana and San Miguel de Allende, we moved last year to Austin, TX. We find ourselves doing different things than we did in Mexico. We travel more often and attend more movies but dine out less often. We cook our own meals and clean the house ourselves now. Our home cost the same as the sale price of the SMA house. We are on two fixed income government pensions from California. At the end of the month, we have the same amount left over as we did in Mexico. At the end of the year, we are hit by a 5K property tax versus $200 in SMA. When people ask us about whether Mexico is cheaper, we answer that, in our experience, Baja California is the most expensive (incredibly high cost of auto and home maintenance) whereas Austin and SMA are about the same. It is possible that this relative equality of cost of living over the past 11 years can be attributable to our advancing years. While not particularly frugal, we don't waste money either.


normamc288

Nov 29, 2007, 10:31 AM

Post #69 of 84 (11555 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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I am so happy that I just signed up to Mexconnect. Regarding cost of living. I lived in Melaque for 3 months, $350. per month for living room, bedroom, kitchen and bath including maid service and 50 feet from the beach. This was all bills paid and included a balcony. Then, went to Tecolutla, $350. month for 4 HUGE rooms, all bills paid, maid and laundry service. My house payment here in Texas is $700. a month plus, electric about $100. and gas $50. and then there is internet and phone and satellite. In Mexico I got to internet cafe for $1. per day.

When I shop the markets the vendors usually throw in extras, for example, I only wanted a few chilis and the man laughed and said no charge. Here, at HEB it's 9 cents for 2. My trust issues are better in Mexico and that is why I plan to move back down in January.

Norma


JohnnyBoy

Dec 2, 2007, 3:55 PM

Post #70 of 84 (11447 views)

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Re: [GueroPaz] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Please feel free not to state your income or to publish your balance sheet here or anywhere else. I am the last person who would ever suggest that you do so.

My comments have to do with just one small sub-topic of this thread "Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico" namely, living on Social Security in San Miguel de Allende.

How many readers of your post here on MexConnect would be helped or well served by the statement: I live in XYZ on a $5,000 Social Security benefit, plus $5,000 a month from the proceeds of investments earned from a book I wrote, plus $15,000 a month from investments from the proceeds of the sale of my house in Malibu, and $8,000 a month from a pension. (All purely made-up-for-effect details.)

Not going to help people who are trying to figure out if they can live in San Miguel de Allende or Ajijic on a $500 per month Social Security benefit. We all know they can't. So let's just be forthcoming with the facts supporting the claims we make, or let's just not make them.


GueroPaz

Dec 3, 2007, 6:04 AM

Post #71 of 84 (11390 views)

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Re: [JohnBleazard] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Pardon me, John, but I'm confused. Are your remarks directed at me, at the one post I made on this topic? I see that the opening post was about SMA, or about Ajiiiiic, and I don't recall saying anything that relates to what you just said. I was also referring (in that one post) to the topic as titled.

I agree: it's helpful to say "I am living in XXX, Mexico with total local expenses of $x,xxx pesos per month." Not to disclose one's total income or resources, of course. In fact, I'm living in Thailand and spending about 98,000 baht per month, and I figure I should be able to survive with the same level of expenses in Puerto Veracruz. In fact, not counting medical insurance, I hope to survive there on US$2,500.


jerezano

Dec 3, 2007, 7:39 AM

Post #72 of 84 (11375 views)

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Re: [JohnBleazard] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Hello,

On this subject John Bleazard wrote that knowing a person's income is not really germane to the subject. He is correct. In no way, unless the person wants to indicate his/her income for some unknown reason do we posters want to see that.

What we want to see is just as John suggests, what living expenses do you have here in México. And the statement that yes, you find that your expenses here in México are more or less than they would be in the USA for the level of life you are living here in México. Not for the level of life you were living in the USA.

John also said: >>[The information provided is]Not going to help people who are trying to figure out if they can live in San Miguel de Allende or Ajijic on a $500 per month Social Security benefit.<<<

This statement is true. For example the authors of Falling in Love with San Miguel Allende state quite simply that they are living in San Miguel Allende on their social security income. They imply that that income is very low. They also state that they live quite well and they offer proof. I don't doubt that they are happy there in SMA or that they can live very comfortably on their restricted income, but those general statements do not help a person who wants to move to SMA. It would be much more helpful if they publish a monthly average of their living costs for the years they have lived in SMA. Of course most people don't have that type of data.

So what they could do, and what would be of value to the potential retiree, would be to post the living costs for last month. And that post would be detailed enough that any lagunas would be clear so that questions could be asked and answered. And to make matters even clearer, if they could compare last months costs with the costs of several years back to show the trend of inflation, etc. the potential retiree could then make some decisions.

As for living in SMA on a $500 us dollar income per month, I don't believe it possible. Nor in Ajijic, nor in Puerto Vallarta. I have been told that yes there are some people in the Lake Chapala area (not Ajijic) who are living on that amount, but I am a bit doubtful of that information as well.

I did personally know a single man, now a stroke victim in Houston living with his family, who rented and lived here in Zacatecas and later San Luis Potosí on less than $500 us dollars a month. He lived quite well and happily and had a maid who worked one day a week and cleaned his house and did his laundry. His proof of income for his FM3 was quite imaginative. Also his level of living would be repugnant to me. But again he was very happy and lived here for several years before health problems sent him back to the USA.

That is the kind of information we need about "Is it really cheaper to live in Mexico?". With the kind of information that John Bleazard and I and others want, we can find an answer to the question.

Adiós. jerezano.


sandykayak


Dec 3, 2007, 1:43 PM

Post #73 of 84 (11338 views)

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Re: [jerezano] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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here's their website www.fallinginlovewithsanmiguel.com

I know they have published lists of costs...perhaps in the book, but I don't have it with me right now. But it's a good read.
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque


La Isla


Dec 3, 2007, 3:02 PM

Post #74 of 84 (11328 views)

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Re: [GueroPaz] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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In Reply To

In fact, I'm living in Thailand and spending about 98,000 baht per month, and I figure I should be able to survive with the same level of expenses in Puerto Veracruz. In fact, not counting medical insurance, I hope to survive there on US$2,500.

You should live very, very comfortably in Vera Cruz on $2,500 US a month. In Mexico City, I am living pleasantly on about half that amount of money.


GueroPaz

Dec 3, 2007, 4:32 PM

Post #75 of 84 (11314 views)

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Re: [La Isla] John Bleazard: Is It Really Cheaper to Live in Mexico?

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Thanks, La Isla, for saying "very, very comfortably." I get the impression that some of our posters here spend much more than US$2,500. I don't smoke, hardly ever drink at all, and am happy if I live in two nice rooms with a baño, if it's air-conditioned.

I've kept meticulous daily records of expenses and income for 2007. In fact, my net expenses have only used up about $2030 per month, which included giving my partner about $430. I should be fine.
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