Forums > General > General Forum

caldwelld

Oct 8, 2007, 9:17 AM

Post #1 of 15 (1039 views)

Shortcut

A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

http://www.reason.com/news/show/122854.html
dondon

jerezano

Oct 8, 2007, 11:30 AM

Post #2 of 15 (1008 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

Hello,

What a fascinating article! Thanks caldweld for posting the URL. It appears the economists have finally come up with something worthwhile. Something we can all take to heart and use to guide our own future--even us older folk. We can at least try to pass that wisdom on to our younger relations who don't often think about such important subjects.

This article and the references which generated it should be required reading for all students in high school all over the world.

Even for those who will surely disagree.

As for politicians, they probably would never get past the first paragraph.

Thanks again for posting the URL.

Adiós. jerezano.

pat

Oct 8, 2007, 3:29 PM

Post #3 of 15 (986 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jerezano] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

For an interesting read on world economics get your hands on Allan Greenspans new book entitled, The Age of Turbulence. He has similar views on what makes some economies viable, and others not. I was afraid the book would be a boring economics textbook, but Greenspan walks the reader through the past 50 or so years and explains how and why the economies of various countries have fared.

A very interesing book.

Pat

raferguson

Oct 8, 2007, 4:43 PM

Post #4 of 15 (976 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

Similarly, I recall a book that claimed that a country's economic success is a function of the culture. I tend to think that corruption, rule of law, and even education are a function of the culture. Note that the Scandinavian countries consistently rank very low on corruption, lower than their neighboring countries.

And of course corruption and rule of law are to some extent functions of the government.

If you want to see an example of a country exhibiting collapse due to bad government, look at Mugabe in Zimbabwe. The country was the breadbasket of Africa, and now there is not enough food to feed the residents, due to a badly botched land reform scheme.

It all makes a lot of sense to me. If natural resources were important, then Russia would be an immensely rich country. I believe that Russia also has a substantial educated class, but lacks rule of law, has too much corruption, etc. Communism did not help either.

China is an interesting example of a country that is suddenly prospering due to a change of government. In that case, the social culture has not changed much, but the government is encouraging capitalism instead of fighting it. So there government seems to be trumping culture.

It all reminds me of something that a Mexican said to me many years ago, when I said that "Mexico is a poor country". He corrected me, and said that "Mexico is a rich country, only the people are poor." He was referring to natural resources, silver, oil, etc., which Mexico has in abundance. He blamed the poverty of the people on the government and the ruling class.

Mexico has had bad government in a one-party system for 70 years, but I don't think that is the whole story. Mexico lacks an educated population. Mexico has lots of corruption and not much rule of law. And Mexicans have a track record of fighting amongst themselves instead of pulling together, as can be easily seen by reading a history of Mexico, or just reading the daily paper.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

esperanza

Oct 8, 2007, 5:32 PM

Post #5 of 15 (968 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

http://www.reason.com/news/show/122854.html

I'd rather that your subject were "According to reason.com, a Mexican in the US...etc."

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

jerezano

Oct 8, 2007, 7:32 PM

Post #6 of 15 (947 views)

Shortcut

Re: [pat] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

Hello Pat,

Thanks very much for the recommendation on Alan Greenspan. It is on order, should be in my mail box already in Texas and I will pick it up on the 22nd.

I have read mixed reviews about it. Most laudatory.

Adiós. jerezano.

tony

Oct 8, 2007, 8:52 PM

Post #7 of 15 (935 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jerezano] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive HUH??

Can't Post | Private Reply

What the hell does this mean? Some type of World Bank Study grades worth in $$ based on???
Then somehow this translates into productivity? I know this is a feel good article but it borderlines on insulting. Take the sentences below:

When a Mexican, or for that matter, a South Asian or African, walks across our border, they gain immediate access to intangible capital worth $418,000 per person. Who wouldn't walk across the border in such circumstances?

Gee tell that to the millions of mexicans living in the dangerous US drug ridden barrios. This propaganda just
makes people in the US feel like this is heaven on earth!

Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

caldwelld

Oct 9, 2007, 7:05 AM

Post #8 of 15 (911 views)

Shortcut

Re: [esperanza] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

And your point is?????????
dondon

jerezano

Oct 9, 2007, 9:17 AM

Post #9 of 15 (891 views)

Shortcut

Re: [tony] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive HUH??

Can't Post | Private Reply

Hello tony,

You said:>>I know this is a feel good article but it borderlines on insulting.<<<

A "feel good article"? I wish I could see your point of view but it seems to me that the World Bank Study (which unfortunately I haven't read and haven't yet been able to find) is talking internationally about all countries in the world. If anybody should feel good it would be the Swiss. I can see them smugly saying "We told you so".

But for the first time, if the summary is correct, economists have tried to identify the effect that intangibles have on a country's economy. While I may be a bit doubtful of the results obtained, at least the effort seems laudable. Also the conclusions about the importance of law and education also seem to be something with which I can agree. And with which most countries can also agree. Especially the education need which is almost universally recognized. But the importance of law comes as a surprise to me. Yet with mature consideration and looking at such law-abiding countries as Switzerland, and the Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc. tier, one can see the relationship now that it has been called to our attention. Compare that with our beloved Mexico, for example. One could almost conclude that Mexico will never be a fully developed nation until it develops a respect for and adherence to its legal system. A far off goal.

So, for Mexico, it would seem that the World Bank study just might offer some real aid for the future.

Too I found the summary delightful in that I could understand it. Economics is a hard subject and when people speak in jargon it sails right past my glazed and myopic eyes. Not to mention my deaf ears.

>>>"... it borderlines on insulting." I, apparently, am not easily insulted.

Adiós. jerezano

Gringal

Oct 9, 2007, 9:29 AM

Post #10 of 15 (888 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

I think the point has been made very well. It's an interesting article, but the fundamental logic seems to be:
If A is true and B is true, then A plus B plus C must be true. Or something like that. There are many true things stated, but they don't necessarily add up to the conclusions reached.

The un-named factor in all of this has to do with fundamental societal values, which are difficult to quantify.
How much value does an individual family place on education; on respecting the law; on consumerism? I'll add to that one the effect of peer pressure outside of the family which may reflect vastly different values that those advocated by the family. If there is a society that is largely in agreement on core values, then the effect of peer pressure can be positive in terms of creating a prosperous, well-educated and law abidiing society. If the opposite situation is the model, then a vastly different outcome will result.

Trying to measure Productivity, using such wide-ranging factors and societies is probably an impossible task.
Those studying the issue can be commended for trying.

esperanza

Oct 9, 2007, 11:53 AM

Post #11 of 15 (863 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

And your point is?????????

My point is that others may judge productivity in ways other than the ways Reason.com judges productivity.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

caldwelld

Oct 10, 2007, 7:00 AM

Post #12 of 15 (796 views)

Shortcut

Re: [esperanza] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

Well, had you read the piece you would have known that it is a World Bank study (not reason.com) that is the source of the information. In any case I found it interesting that for the first time an attempt was made to quantify some of the more intangible elements that are part of every society and are important in the daily lives of people. On the other hand (a beloved phrase of economists) I am sure there are other ways of looking at things.
dondon

esperanza

Oct 10, 2007, 9:31 AM

Post #13 of 15 (775 views)

Shortcut

Re: [caldwelld] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive than at home

Can't Post | Private Reply

Of course I read the piece.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

tonyburton

Oct 10, 2007, 10:03 AM

Post #14 of 15 (769 views)

Shortcut

Re: [jerezano] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive HUH??

Can't Post | Private Reply

The full text of the study is at: http://web.worldbank.org/...itePK:408050,00.html
I'm not convinced that the access to intangible capital is any indicator of productivity, but I guess it all depends on what is meant by productivity...

The only reference to "productivity" in the work's index leads to a single paragraph early on:
"The evidence presented in subsequent chapters shows that low or negative saving is primarily an issue in low-income countries and some resource-dependent middle-income countries. For resource-dependent middle-income countries, negative saving is almost always a reflection of excessive government consumption expenditure. Conversely, for the poorest countries a prescription to boost saving by reducing consumption is clearly unpalatable. A better policy response is to boost the productivity of all assets, including resource assets, in these countries through policy and institutional reforms, leading to a cycle of rising consumption and saving."

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Oct 10, 2007, 10:07 AM)

jerezano

Oct 10, 2007, 10:06 AM

Post #15 of 15 (766 views)

Shortcut

Re: [tonyburton] A Mexican in the US is 5 times more productive HUH??

Can't Post | Private Reply

Hello tony,

I may not be fully convinced either. Still the effort is in the right direction. Thanks for the url to the World Bank Study. I will try to wade through it.

Adiós. jerezano