MexConnect.com Forums: General: Living, Working, Retiring: Dual Citizenship Questions: Page 2

Re: [jerezano] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Jerezano, you are right about each office making up their own requirements. At the México City office where I applied they did ask for an original and a copy of my birth certificate. They also wanted two photos of me but only the original and one copy of my FM3 and my US passport, and a letter written by me saying why I wanted to be a Mexican citizen. (My lawyer wrote it for me, and I signed it.)

In México City you must not sign anything in advance. They want to see you sign all documents in front of them and you must sign all documents exactly as your name is signed in your US passport. My name in my passport is printed in full including my middle name and that is the way I signed it, so that is the way I had to sign everything. I signed the first document using just my middle initial. That was unacceptable. I have delt with enough Mexican government agencies that I always bring more copies than they ask for, so I had another copy to sign the way they insisted that it be signed. I don't remember what they were right now, but they did want three copies of some things that I needed to sign.

Since my wife is a Mexican citizen I only need to prove two years of residency in México to apply for citizenship, although I have lived here for many more years than that. I don’t think the woman that was processing my application was too familiar with the law though. She remarked as she was checking my FM3 that she had to verify that I have lived in México for five years.

I made a deposit in a bank using the account number my lawyer provided to pay the fee to the migra. The deposit slip was proof that I had paid the required fee. They found no entry or exit stamps in my passport for the past eight years or in my FM3 for the past five years and accepted that as proof that I have not left the country in the past eight years.

It all boils down to it being very prudent to check with the office where you are going to apply to find out what they want from you, not what the federal regulations ask for. My lawyer checked that out for me in advance.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

Papirex

Sep 2, 2007, 11:07 PM

Post #27 of 51 (1247 views)

Re: [jerezano] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Jerezano my cuñado is also a dual citizen with both Mexican and US passports. When leaving Tacoma to fly to México he shows his Mexican passport to board the airplane, and shows it again when the plane lands in México City.

When returning to The US, he shows his US passport at the México City airport, and again when the plane lands in the US.

He never crosses the border by land. He will be retiring in about 9 years. He is engaged to marry my wife’s best friend; she is a physician in México City. He will move back to México after he retires, and will probably be making some land crossings to shop in Texas, where he was born.

We expect his wife to trash her México City practice and move up to Tacoma to be a housewife there until he retires. That’s what she says she wants to do anyway.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

Marlene

Sep 2, 2007, 11:20 PM

Post #28 of 51 (1246 views)

Re: [Rolly] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Quote

Any kind of record kept of her exit and return?

http://www.mexconnect.com/...el/KLM/klmimmig.html

"When traveling as an Inmigrado, you must fill out an FME - Para Mexicanos, just like a Mexican national................."

(This post was edited by Marlene on Sep 2, 2007, 11:27 PM)

Rolly

Sep 3, 2007, 7:32 AM

Post #29 of 51 (1232 views)

Re: [Marlene] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Thank you, Marlene. I find it interesting that there is no place to record the passport number. It still leaves me wondering how the Mexican government can track the time-out-of-country of naturalized citizens, especially since it is so easy to exit/enter by land without the FME or anything else.

Oh well, the world is full of things I don't understand. Hell, I don't even understand all the things I know. Smile

Rolly

tonyburton / Moderator

Sep 3, 2007, 9:03 AM

Post #30 of 51 (1223 views)

Re: [Rolly] Dual Citizenship Questions

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In the case of Mexican citizens, it's nothing to do with tracking time out of the country. It's purely a matter of knowing who is inside the borders of Mexico and who is outside at any given moment in time.

Sep 3, 2007, 11:22 AM

Post #31 of 51 (1203 views)

Re: [jerezano] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Quote

2. You may not have been temporarily out of Mexico for more than 120 days in the past two years working back from the date of your application. You will have to document your exits and reentries. Unless you have checked out with the migra on your FM3 (required for FM2) you will need to reconstruct from memory which you then swear to be the "best of your knowledge".

Jerezano, I have an acquaintance, who has flown to Mexico and has both his FM-3 and American passport stamped upon entering the Republic. On his return trip to the US, he has only his American passport stamped.

In essence, officially his FM-3 passport retains only his Mexico entry stamp for as long as it remains unstamped when exiting Mexico. Now in reference to the 120 day ban against leaving Mexico temporarily or otherwise within the last 2 years from date of application, according to the lack of exit stamp on his FM-3, it appears this person hasn’t left Mexico from the date stamp obtained back from his original entry flight.

It appears at least in essence that this would meet that 120-day provisional aspect discussed above when applying for Dual Citizenship. I keep reading here on this forum where many have rarely had their FM-3 stamped either coming or going by land and some by air. Again, these folks with FM-3’s haven’t officially ever left Mexico based on unstamped FM’3 passports.

Now with regards to the amount of time JR quips as a misleading website giving erroneous time tables as to the immediate dates given as mere fizzle, like most other variable regulations in this great old republic, I tend to agree.

JR, you point in direction of others who have actually gone through the process of naturalization for clarity and a semblance of truth about the amount of time it takes to realistically get your Dual Citizenship and yes, I’ve searched unsuccessfully to date.There was once a previous member on this forum who actually did this but has been gone for over a year or so.

What also strikes me as curious, is why not more of the long standing members I've been exposed to on this forum for going on 3 years now, and who have lived in Mexico for so long now that they’ve actually forgotten how to speak English, why haven’t they opted for Dual Citizenship…….. Laugh

Jesting aside, really, why some of you like Esperanza (not sure), JR, Jerezano, Rolly, Jonna, just to name a few haven’t opted to do so, is a bit puzzling. What is the mystery or hidden secrets behind this lack of interest……?

Uups, I almost forgot, happy Labor Day!!!!

(This post was edited by Oscar2 on Sep 3, 2007, 11:32 AM)

Rolly

Sep 3, 2007, 11:46 AM

Post #32 of 51 (1193 views)

Re: [Oscar2] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Oscar, I very much want to be a citizen. I hope I can apply next Spring after I renew my FM3 and US Passport. My problem is my poor Spanish. I can read more than I can speak or understand. My accent is so bad that almost no one can understand me, and my hearing is so bad that I can understand almost no one. Makes it tough.

I'm thinking about a sob story -- a sickly old man who wants to be a citizen before he dies. Think that will work?

Rolly Pirate

Sep 3, 2007, 1:19 PM

Post #33 of 51 (1181 views)

Re: [Rolly] Dual Citizenship Questions

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My problem is my poor Spanish. I can read more than I can speak or understand. My accent is so bad that almost no one can understand me, and my hearing is so bad that I can understand almost no one.

Rolly, the accent part is a tuffy and help for this one is talking your head off or as frequently as possible. Problem being is the hearing part. Generally when hearing is so compromised where understanding is impaired, this in and of itself, can and will cause some folks to shy away from contact with others. Reclusiveness is not uncommon and of course, the needed open verbal communication takes a big hit.

I know what I’m talking about because this particular malady is not exactly foreign to yours truly. On a number of occasions, I too, have tested and explored a variety of hearing aids ranging in the thousands of dollars to see if the quality of life would improve but in my case, no cigar.

I realize my hearing has been on the fritz for sometime now. But not to the point where at times with a little couching, like watcha say, or huh, or would you please repeat that, or please speak up. Now when it comes to family members, I admonish by saying such things as, okay, okay, you guys, why is it that when you want something the whole house can hear you, but when you speak to me it comes out muffled and in low monotones, as if your speaking to someone in the hallowed halls of a church. Hey, give me a break and speak up like you routinely do on your cell phones…. Laugh

As a rule, I can hear pretty good but if your hearing is as bad as you say it is, hey Rolly, as much as I too hate wearing hearing aids, if your not already using them, try them and crank up the volume and talk, talk, talk till they smile and hand you your Citizenship.

Sep 3, 2007, 5:08 PM

Post #34 of 51 (1160 views)

Re: [Rolly] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Hello Rolly,

One of the first things we gringos learn here in Mexico is that in no way can we understand what is going on.

Yes, the inmigrado and inmigrante must check in and out. And I suppose the Mexican citizen is required to check in and out. And I notice on the form which Marlene posted that it says it is for Mexican Citizens and there is a place where the birth place and date should be filled in.

But I have many Mexican friends who wander from here to there and never check out. Even if they use their Mexican passport to get back in. The one who helps me drive north from time to time has a green card, and we just drive up to the frontier, I show my American passport, he shows his green card, and his current Texas driver's license and we head for our favorite Motel and then his favorite Chinese Restaurant. No checking out on the Mexico side.

When we come back in he has his Mexican passport which he had not been asked to show for the last three trips and I have my FM3 which I have not been asked to show for five trips now. But we are driving my Mexican plated car. Maybe that helps.

Airline travel is entirely different.The airlines have responsibilities they must fulfill.

Now it is true that Mexican Citizens whether naturalized or not are supposed to use their Mexican Passports when they leave Mexico and also when they come back in. I don't know of one who has both passports who conforms to this rule. Perhaps there are a few. All that I know with two passports do as I described above.

Adios. jerezano.

(This post was edited by jerezano on Sep 3, 2007, 5:42 PM)

jennifer rose

Sep 3, 2007, 5:14 PM

Post #35 of 51 (1157 views)

Re: [jerezano] Dual Citizenship Questions

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The form posted by Marlene is NOT for inmigrados. Inmigrados are not Mexican citizens. It clearly says on its face: F.M.E. para Mexicanos.

Rolly

Sep 3, 2007, 5:38 PM

Post #36 of 51 (1151 views)

Re: [jerezano] Dual Citizenship Questions

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"...there is a place where the nationalization place and date should be filled in."

It's hard to read, but I believe it says Lugar, fecho de nacimiento = place and date of birth.

Rolly Pirate

jennifer rose

Sep 3, 2007, 5:52 PM

Post #37 of 51 (1147 views)

Re: [Rolly] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Yes, it does ask for date and place of birth, as does the FME para extranjeros. But the date and place of birth do not control matters of citizenship -- there are Mexican citizens by birth and by naturalization who were not born in Mexico, and there are non-Mexican citizens who were born on Mexico soil.

Sep 3, 2007, 5:58 PM

Post #38 of 51 (1146 views)

Re: [Oscar2] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Hello,

Oscar2 asked:>>What also strikes me as curious, is why not more of the long standing members I've been exposed to on this forum for going on 3 years now, and who have lived in Mexico for so long now that they’ve actually forgotten how to speak English, why haven’t they opted for Dual Citizenship…

There are many reasons. Rolly's hearing problem is one, since he is worried about the Spanish understanding requirement.

Probably the most important is the paper work. As you are finding out, what is clearly stated in the Government documents as being required, often takes four or five trips with attendant waiting in line, parking problems, frustration, etc, to fulfill because each official with whom one deals makes up his own highly difficult and sometimes months-delaying requirements to add. So, anybody who has dealt with Mexican officialdom, tends to be leary about launching himself happily into that quagmire.

Just for example: The requirements listed by the SRE for obtaining a naturalization through reasons of residency are entirely different from the requirements through reasons of marriage or Iberian parentage etc. An applicant for reasons of residency is NOT required to provide a birth certificate while in some other instances he/she must provide an apostiled birth certificate and perhaps even have that translated into Spanish. Now, if I should want to apply for reasons of residency and I should go to the SRE and make application with all the required documentation, I just might, and probably will, be required by the local office to provide that translated, apostiled, birth certificate. Just the thought discourages me. Read on this forum about apostile problems. And how many times have I had to go get different photographs made because the ones which were provided were not acceptable. ETC, etc. etc.

One has to be in a good mood ready for anything when it comes to Mexican paperwork.

Adios. jerezano.

johanson

Sep 3, 2007, 6:40 PM

Post #39 of 51 (1137 views)

Re: [jerezano] Dual Citizenship Questions

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I think it would be great to have dual citizenship. And although I purchased my house in Jalisco more than ten years ago, I go north every year for periods of 3 to 4 months. It used to be 5 to 6 months. And when I had my FM-2 at the end of the 5 year period I had been out of the country more than was and I guess still is allowed. So I didn't even bother to try to apply

Besides been frugal, and having a 2001 Ford Explorer licensed in Texas and knowing that someday I would or will need another one and not liking the word Tenencia (I suppose I could buy a truck to avoid the tenencia) I went back to my FM 3.

I may try again if I live long enough. Smile

(This post was edited by johanson on Sep 3, 2007, 6:42 PM)

Delia

Sep 4, 2007, 7:38 AM

Post #40 of 51 (1107 views)

Re: Paperwork for Immigrado

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I just submitted the following documents last week for immigrado status:
-Original FM2 and original U.S. passport (U.S. passport to be returned in a week.
- Last 4 renewals for my FM2
- Three months of bank statements
- Proof of address (phone or electric)
- Copy of paid tax bill for the house I own.
Fees were 808 pesos for receipt of documents and 3093 pesos for immigrado status.
This plus the fees I am paying the attorney for the paperwork, application, etc. When immigrado status is completed, I will have to go to Guadalajara to sign and finalize the process.

Sep 4, 2007, 9:46 AM

Post #41 of 51 (1086 views)

Re: [johanson] Dual Citizenship Questions

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Hello johnason,

You said:>>I think it would be great to have dual citizenship. And although I purchased my house in Jalisco more than ten years ago, I go north every year for periods of 3 to 4 months. It used to be 5 to 6 months. And when I had my FM-2 at the end of the 5 year period I had been out of the country more than was and I guess still is allowed. So I didn't even bother to try to apply <<

You are right. According to the requirements of the SRE for people applying for Naturalization because of residency, you are not qualified. Of course, as some people have already pointed out, if you never had your exits and re-entries entered into your FM3 (that's me), you could lie on your Declaration of time outside Mexico and probably get away with it. That is my own problem. I, too, spend 3 months of every year (Dec, Jan, and Feb) visiting family for the Christmas season. Too I make several trips a year to visit my doctors, etc. And I, too, would feel very uncomfortable "mintiendo" about the number of days I have been absent. So, for the past two years I have been cutting down on the days outside of Mexico to meet the 120 day requirement. I can now meet the requirement, but am still ambivalent about all the necessary paperwork. If SRE were here in my town, I would apply as soon as I get my new FM3 (November 15) but as SRE is an hour away, those innumerable visits to meet phantom requirements just don't seem worthwhile. I need a push.

Adios. jerezano.

Sep 4, 2007, 9:57 AM

Post #42 of 51 (1083 views)

Re: [Delia] Paperwork for Immigrado

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Hello Delia,

Thanks for posting your experience with application for Inmigrado status here on the board.

Would it be possible for you to tell us why you chose Inmigrado status instead of Naturalization? You must have made a study about the advantages and disadvantages of each before you chose. I have looked rather closely at each, and for the life of me, have not been able to find any real difference in the paper process or the costs, or the requirements.

Perhaps there is a difference in the advantages which I have not been able to uncover. It seems to me that Naturalization might offer just a bit more freedom for the future. But I'm not sure. You might be able to offer a bit of wisdom to those of us thinking about either that we could use to make the choice.

Adios. jerezano

Sep 4, 2007, 1:09 PM

Post #43 of 51 (1063 views)

Re: [jerezano] Paperwork for Immigrado

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Jerenzano, the collective contributions given to this thread has really been of assistance to me and I’m sure others interested in this subject find it just as enlightening. The questions you are posing are very good and hopefully Delia and more members can and will step up to the plate and clarify much of which I've rarely heard discussed in such detail, to date.

One thing Rolly and Johanson mentioned:

Quote

Rolly said: You will not be able to have a foreign-plated car in Mexico. You can own one NoB, but you can't bring it into Mexico without nationalizing it. You'd be better off to buy a car in Mexico.

Quote

Johanson said: Besides been frugal, and having a 2001 Ford Explorer licensed in Texas and knowing that someday I would or will need another one and not liking the word Tenencia (I suppose I could buy a truck to avoid the tenencia) I went back to my FM 3.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnson’s position is well understandable and is leaning toward the idea ( I guess) that once you are Naturalized, you must drive to the border and get rid of your American plated car you may have had for several years under the FM-3 exception.

Personally, in about 2 years or so, my 05’ Acura MDX midsized SUV will book at about 20k US or so, and having to sacrifice this excellent vehicle (paid for) in exchange for Naturalization I’d say, is a bit pricey, if I had to get rid of it NoB, because of it.

I have an acquaintance of which we became friends who was born in Mexico, moved at age 2, and lived in the US for over 35 years. He is now a very successful home builder in Aguascalientes and although he owns and American plated Corvette, he opted to buy an additional Escalade dual cab pick-up truck (which is a beauty 70k US) exclusively to circumvent the tenencia Johanson pointed out.

This by no means should be considered frugality, its just good business. Very little else has been said about possibilities of retaining ones current vehicle when application and approval of Naturalization takes place, unless someone else chimes in, it remains mandatory you have to give up your current vehicle …………….. I think…… Laugh

Marlene

Sep 4, 2007, 9:33 PM

Post #44 of 51 (1028 views)

Re: [Oscar2] Paperwork for Immigrado

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I posted (4th entry on this thread, page 1) that it depends on the make of vehicle and how long it's been in Mexico as to whether it will be considered as a possibility to remain and be nationalized. I got the impression from the Aduana nearest me that it was case-by-case decision.

ncferret

Sep 5, 2007, 8:07 AM

Post #45 of 51 (1004 views)

Re: [Oscar2] Paperwork for Immigrado

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What I found interesting about this discussion was that no one discussed the TAX ramifications of having dual citizenship in the US and Mexico (Canadians can opt out of income taxes under certain circumstances). Since the US and Mexico both require reporting your WORLDWIDE income, you will be taxed in both countries on interest, dividends, rental income, etc. Not, double taxed, but taxed to the maximum rate of the higher of the two countries.

Now if you're retired and living simply on a pension or social security income, that's no problem since Mexico exempts this type of income. However, if you have other income earning assets in the US or Mexico, you can imagine the complexities in filing your taxes!

Sep 5, 2007, 10:19 AM

Post #46 of 51 (994 views)

Re: [Marlene] Paperwork for Immigrado

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Quote

Marlene, I know you’ve been amongst these environs for a number of years now and are well familiar with the “variable” policies we are all exposed too and must learn to live in and around them when necessary.

This forum is a window, which looks into a plethora of information that unless you live with blinders on or your head is in the sand, obvious discretionary/arbitrary bureaucratic guidelines hit you square between the eyes when the popular and accepted mordida bites your pocket.

Your impression above is well taken and based on a long history surrounding the strong existence of the mordida mentality; trust and/or confidence in what we’d like to believe is solid, instead its done (as you put it) on a case-to-case basis.

When eligibility for naturalization arrives and hypothetically, if you do have a vehicle who’s price point at that time is quite high, and this so called “solid” policy dictates that you must divest yourself of this vehicle because you are now going to be Naturalized, questions arise.

If like most all else which follows in the Mexican way of life - should your vehicle not fall within the guidelines of acceptance after Naturalization - you either dump it NoB or is it hard to believe that as long as your FM-3 stamp sticker is embossed on your vehicles front window it can still be driven in Mexico without incident …….unless…..?

Unless what, confiscation takes place when stopped by the local policía? If this risk exists, CYA should kick-in. If you’re a couple, put the vehicle in your spouses FMT or FM-3 name until the vehicle meets criteria for Nationalization.

If none of the above work, FM-3 it, until that vehicle is no longer important/losses its value and then buy Mexican. By then, maybe the blurb about tenencia abolishment will become a reality but I wouldn’t bet on it, based on the other blurb about IMSS in trouble do to lack of governmental funds being generated.

These are interesting questions with a frontier atmosphere down home in a land where frontier justice is wild and wholly and the charm of Mañana is in your hip pocket….. Smile

Sep 5, 2007, 10:45 AM

Post #47 of 51 (989 views)

Re: [ncferret] Paperwork for Immigrado

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Quote

Since the US and Mexico both require reporting your WORLDWIDE income, you will be taxed in both countries on interest, dividends, rental income, etc. Not, double taxed, but taxed to the maximum rate of the higher of the two countries.

Ncferret, I was just going to send my post to Merlene, and I caught yours in between having a conversation with my accountant who has done well by me for years.

I posed the question about the US taxation obligation and his response was as follows:

If you are out of the country (with a resident address, FM-3 etc.) for more then 330 days out of the year, you get an exemption credit of $80,000.00 per year. You must file a #2555 long form, if self employed or claiming business expenses.

If not self employed or you don’t have business expenses, you file a #2555 EZ form and get the same $80,000.00 per year exemptions from interest, wages etc.
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If your not sure, if need be, bring this bit of information to your own tax person for further clarification.

ncferret

Sep 5, 2007, 10:54 AM

Post #48 of 51 (985 views)

Re: [Oscar2] Paperwork for Immigrado

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Oscar,

I think your accountant is confused. The $80,000 exemption is for EARNED income only. Not interest on a CD, or dividend income, rental, or capital gains. If I earn up to $80,000 in Mexico (as an employee or business owner), I can report that earned income on my US return and it will be exempt from US taxes (given certain restrictions as you mention).

Try this question with your accountant:

I am a US citizen and I have been living in Mexico for the past 5 years. I can now apply for citizenship (after 5 yrs of residency) which has several advantages. I will have substantial interest, dividend, and capital gain income from assets in the US before I retire at age 63 and no earned income. What are my tax liabilities the US and what are my tax liabilities in Mexico?

Please share his/her answer, or we can take this off forum, but I believe folks should FULLY understand their tax situation before getting dual citizenship.

BTW, Wiki has in interesting example and some possible pitfalls to duel citizenship -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_citizenship

Also, here is the IRS definition of earned income - crystal clear -

http://www.irs.gov/.../0,,id=96811,00.html

Edited by Rolly to make the links clickable.

(This post was edited by Rolly on Sep 5, 2007, 11:24 AM)

Marlene

Sep 5, 2007, 11:10 AM

Post #49 of 51 (977 views)

Re: [Oscar2] Paperwork for Immigrado

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Oscar, I´m not sure where you got the idea that my response has anything to do with paying "mordida", because it doesn't at all. In fact, I am a bit offended by that assumption that lives here revolve around bribery. My husband is a Mexican and we happen to get things done quite nicely without paying bribes, especially to Government officials. Do you live in Mexico? If you truly believe this is the norm here then you live in a different Mexico than I.

After naturalizing you cannot drive around with a temporarily imported foreign plated car. Period. Yes, confiscation by the SAT police is a given. There is a yard full of confiscated vehicles found to be illegal here. They flatten them to make more room. One my friends, a Cuban-American, was paid a visit after naturalizing and got told that if her foreign plated car did not leave Mexico immediately they would be happy to take it from her. Planning in advance is the thing to do, not wait to see what happens and try to get away with something.

I was told in person by Aduana that sometimes they will give permission to nationalize your vehicle once your citizenship is final, which permits you to get Mexican registration and plates, depending on how long you have had it here and the age of it. Obviously a shiny, relatively new foreign car is not going to be considered, but your trusty old 15 year old car may be. Anyway, it's not that big a deal or like they are authorizing anything completely out of the ordinary, given there is a window to nationalize vehicles every so often. If your vehicle fits the criteria and you are about to become a citizen, you should take advantage of the next opportunity to legalize your car, and then you won't be so bothered about this detail in your new life as a Mexican. Or buy a Mexican vehicle.

(This post was edited by Marlene on Sep 5, 2007, 11:35 AM)

Sep 5, 2007, 12:45 PM

Post #50 of 51 (963 views)