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husker

Jun 5, 2007, 10:40 AM

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Reflexive verbs

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I was told, in a class I took, to be very careful of using them - only use with children or family as they are commands.
I don't know if this is true or not but:

sentarse would sound as though I would be obligated to do so

when por favor sentar con me would seem as request.

jerezano

Jun 5, 2007, 5:01 PM

Post #2 of 20 (7932 views)

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Re: [husker] Reflexive verbs

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Hello Husker,

Reflexive verbs can be a whole can of worms. But NO, it is NOT true that they are all command forms and can can be used only with family and children.

You chose as an example the verb sentarse which means to sit down. "Siéntese Ud.", por favor is indeed a command, but is used all the time when one enters a house or an office,even as a stranger, and the host or hostess or the secretary is offering you a seat. If there are more than one of you then the offer is "Siéntense Uds., por favor." It means "please sit down". I hear more often "Siéntete, which just means sit down in the familiar as I am a single and since it is familiar the por favor is most often left off.

Let's take another sample of a simmilar sounding verb which comes in two forms--the simple verb sentir which means to feel sorry, to regret, to feel and its reflexive form sentirse which means to feel (well, ill).

Sentir--Lo siento el error. I regret (it) the mistake.
Sentirse--Me siento mal. I feel sick (within myself).

Are there command forms? Yes of course.

Sentir--No lo sientas . No importa. Don't regret it. It's not important.
Sentirse--No te sientas mal. Don't feel sick.

Husker, if you have not yet picked up the book by Christopher Kendris entitled "501 Spansih Verbs" by all means do so and quickly. It is very useful to the new Spanish student. My edition is from way back in 1982 which in paperback in those days cost only $6usd. It is probably the most popular reference book for the Spanish student because of its easy reference arrangement by alphabet and the conjugation of all seven simple and coumpound tenses and moods for each verb listed.

About the misunderstanding that reflexive verbs are all command verbs, consider just one other example: aburrirse which means to become bored or to get tired. aburrir on the other hand means to bore or annoy or to vex.

Aburrir. Me aburra el maestro means the teacher is boring me. aburra is a non-reflexive verb but the action needs an object, in this case me.
Aburrirse. Me aburro means I'm getting bored.

Are there command forms? Yes of course, but most often in the negative.

aburrir. ¡No nos aburra! Quit annoying us. Again a non-reflexive verb with the object nos.
Aburrirse. No te aburras, etc--don't get bored.

Question: Now after looking at your book "501 Spanish Verbs" how would you say "Don't get bored to a stranger? To several strangers?"

Keep in there. Adiós. jerezano

PS: Esperanza and Quevedo and others: Where are you?

Adiós. jerezano.

quevedo

Jun 5, 2007, 10:53 PM

Post #3 of 20 (7921 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Culiacán, Sinaloa

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Right now here in Culichi, estimado Jerezano. God willing tomorrow night back in Guadalajara.

Thanks for your participation and help!

Saludos cordiales,

Quevedo

P. S., Esperanza, where are you?!

jerezano

Jun 6, 2007, 8:08 AM

Post #4 of 20 (7916 views)

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Re: [quevedo] Culiacán, Sinaloa

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Hola Sr. Quevedo,

¿Puede hablarnos de Culichi cuando regreses?

Can you tell us about Culichi when you return?

Hasta pronto. jerezano.

jsandrock

Jun 8, 2007, 6:04 AM

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Re: [jerezano] Reflexive verbs

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Greetings all -- I am new to this forum but having moved recently to Ajijic I am using my Spanish all the time now (what fun!) & will need help from all of you improving some of these subtle things I think I know and realize later -- alas -- that I am truly clueless. In particular I find myself -- apparently I'm not the only one!- bashing around with these reflexive verbs too. Here's my question -- about the form, and I'm not sure what it is correctly called - where you insert a "te" in the verb.

Example -- when I was unpacking my kitchen stuff my maid (who has strict instructions to correct my Spanish!) was helping me put rarely used things way up high on top of the cabinets. I handed her a pot and said "subetelo!" to which she cracked up and said "No, Senora, that means that I myself should climb up there" - okay, so I said -- "so what I should have said is "subelo" and she said yes, that would have been better.

But then, a couple of weeks later, I found an old telephone I wasn't in need of and offered it to her, and she said she'd love to have it -- and I got brave and tried out "llevatelo!" and then I said "was that correct?" -- and she said it was fine. I asked, "why was subetelo wrong and llevatelo right?" and she replied that in this instance what I had said was okay because once she had accepted the phone from me as a gift it was acceptable for me to use that form as the phone now pertained to HER. I think I kind of get it but would love to have some more specific guidelines as to when to put that "te" (or I suppose the "se" might work similarly) in those reflexive verbs.

Help!

jsandrock

quevedo

Jun 8, 2007, 12:23 PM

Post #6 of 20 (7851 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Culiacán, Sinaloa

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Estimado Jerezano:

¿Algo en particular de su interés?

Anything in particular of your interest?

Saludos cordiales,

Quevedo

jerezano

Jun 8, 2007, 5:43 PM

Post #7 of 20 (7835 views)

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Re: [jsandrock] Reflexive verbs

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Hello jsandrock,

I am weak in reflexive verbs and in object pronouns but since nobody else has responded yet, let me try...

súbetelo (note the accent) would mean to me "carry it up yourself" (the te in this case meaning yourself) while súbelo would mean lift it up, put it up. So, súbetelo would indeed be wrong since you wanted her to lift it up, not to climb up and place it there. The commands súbate or bájate mean to climb up or get down. You will probably hear these often.

llévatelo (again note the accent) would mean to me carry it away yourself (the te meaning yourself) and would indeed be correct because that is exactly what you mean. It does not mean to carry yourself away. How could it? On the other hand vete means exactly that, go away or take yourself away.

I don't understand all the goop about it now belonging to her so the form is now correct. So far as I know, it would be possible to reply rather rudely to a friend who has just asked you to help him carry something that he didn't want to carry: "No, llévatelo" which would have the meaning of No, carry it yourself.

Quevedo is watching this forum but hasn't said a word. Perhaps the air of Sinaloa has taken away his voice?

Adiós. jerezano

jerezano

Jun 10, 2007, 8:20 AM

Post #8 of 20 (7796 views)

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Re: [quevedo] Culiacán, Sinaloa

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Hola Sr. Quevedo,

Ud. dijo:>>¿Algo en particular de su interés? [de Culiacán, Sinaloa. Anything of particular interest?

Sí. Primero: ¿Por qué Ud. dijo en su mensaje original culichi? ¿Ese es apodo por Culiacán?

Yes. First: Why did you say in your original message culichi?
Is that a nickname for Culiacán?

Segundo: No vemos mucho aquí en los foro sobre el estado de Sinaloa. Tampoco de Culiacán.

Second: We don't see much here on the foro (forums) about the state of Sinaloa. Nor about Culiacán.

Tercero: ¿Cómo son la ciudad y el estado? ¿Fueron vacaciones? ¿Fue un viaje de negocios? ¿Pasó todo bien?

Third: What are the city and the state like? Was this a vacation? Was it a business trip? Did everything go well?

Quatro: Le extrañábamos aquí en el foro.

Fourth: We missed you here on the forum.

Adiós. jerezano PD: Tal vez su respuesta deba ser un hilo nuevo.

hopalog

Jun 10, 2007, 7:01 PM

Post #9 of 20 (7776 views)

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Re: [husker] Reflexive verbs

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the ones that get me is when we take no responsibility for our actions, "se me lo perdio" (it lost itself to me). sigh. I never know when to take responsibility (lo perdi) and when not to.

Any ideas?

Hell's Half Acre

Flickrlicious

jerezano

Jun 11, 2007, 7:24 AM

Post #10 of 20 (7762 views)

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Re: [hopalog] Reflexive verbs

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Hello hopalog,

Quit thinking of those verbs as no-responsibility verbs. Think of them simply as passive statements:

"se me lo perdio" It lost itself to me. It got lost. Now, of course, you did not have any responsibility.

se me quebró--It broke itself for me. Doesn't matter who had the responsibility. It broke.

se le quemó los frijoles--the frijoles burned themselves for her. I wasn't even there, and it was the maid who was cooking them. The frijoles burned.

Just change your way of thinking a bit. Think of these as a passive way to describe disasterous events.

Se me quitaron los documentos. They took away my papers. (The papers took themselves away from me).

Adiós. jerezano

esperanza

Jun 11, 2007, 11:55 AM

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Re: [hopalog] Reflexive verbs

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Lo perdí is usually used when you want to say something like "I missed it." (The bus, a show you wanted to see, etc.) It's also used to say, "I lost it." (A book, a dish, anything masculine. You'd say la perdí if you lost something feminine, like your key (la llave). Or, of course, you could also say se me perdió...it lost itself to me.

I've been away for about a month, but I'm back now.
He estado afuera por casi un mes, pero ya me regresé.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

quevedo

Jun 14, 2007, 10:43 AM

Post #12 of 20 (7540 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Reflexive verbs

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Muy buena explicación, amigo Jerezano. I agree with your explanation and find it correct and useful. Muchas gracias.

Minor details:

Siéntete. Correct form is Siéntate.
Lo siento el error. Better, Siento el error or Lo siento por el error.
No te sientas mal. Don't feel sick. The expression and the translation are both correct; but No te sientas mal could also mean, Don't feel bad, as in Don't feel bad for what happened. Also, Don't feel guilty.
Me aburra el maestro should be, Me aburre el maestro.

Saludos cordiales,

Quevedo

jerezano

Jun 14, 2007, 11:29 AM

Post #13 of 20 (7534 views)

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Re: [quevedo] Reflexive verbs

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Hola,

Gracias por los detalles menores, Sr. Quevedo. Son exactamente
lo que yo necesito.

Thanks for the minor details, Sr. Quevedo. They are exactly what I need.

Adiós. jerezano.

quevedo

Jun 14, 2007, 11:46 AM

Post #14 of 20 (7532 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Reflexive verbs

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Nothing wrong with my voice, amigo Jerezano. Thing is, I got myself involved in a couple of rather demanding projects; in the past two weeks I've been in San Diego, Tijuana, and twice in Culiacán. I have not had the quality time needed to properly attend the forum. Fortunately things are rolling on now, so I will be a bit more free to participate here with you and all the other friends interested in our beautiful language.

A rocky trip to San Diego I had. Along with the business negotiations I was to conduct, I planned ahead and bought me a new 11" SCT telescope, a rather massive piece of equipment. One of the best Astronomy stores in the United States is located in Oceanside, north of San Diego. I took the train there and picked up the scope, only to find that neither the train nor Greyhound would take it back to San Diego. Called to a couple of companies for a van to drive me back, to no avail. All of them talked about a 50 lb limit for a package. It seems that that limit is set by insurance companies, and when those guys (or lawyers) are involved, there is not much a body can do to get what it wants. Finally, a regular customer of the store who happened to be there and was driving his pick-up truck back to San Diego saved my day.

To cross the border I had to call a Mexican van service that sent a vehicle from Tijuana, picked me and my gigantic baby up in San Diego and then drove me south. Everything came out nicely. The animal, as everybody calls my new toy at home, is working just fine. Clear skies!

Now to the Spanish. You underline the use of ortographic accents in words as súbetelo and llévatelo. Good for you. Both words are sobreesdrújulas, meaning that when you pronounce them you put the accent (the spoken accent is called acento prosódico) beyond the third syllable, counting from the last. As the rule states, all sobreesdrújulas must show the accent in written form [´], called tilde. By the way, all esdrújulas (words accentuated beyond the second syllable) must also carry the tilde: súbelo and llévalo, for example.

As you correctly explain, te goes for yourself and indicates possession. If you are asked to carry something upstairs, something that is not yours and that you will not keep, you will be ordered, Súbelo. If your pants are down, then I would say, Se te bajó el pantalón, amigo Jerezano; ¡súbetelo! If you ask me, ¿Me regalas esta pluma?, I would answer, Llévatela. The pen is now yours, or in your possession: Llévatela, pero me la devuelves mañana; Take it, but give it back to me tomorrow.

Saludos astronómicos,

Quevedo

quevedo

Jun 14, 2007, 11:54 AM

Post #15 of 20 (7528 views)

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Re: [hopalog] Se me perdió

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Better than Se me lo perdió.

Saludos cordiales,

Quevedo

quevedo

Jun 14, 2007, 12:03 PM

Post #16 of 20 (7527 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Buenos frijoles

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A passive rather than an I'm not guilty approach. I like it. Thank you.

(Detallitos:

Los frijoles: plural. Se le quemaron los frijoles, instead of Se le quemó.

And, Me quitaron los documentos, better than Se me quitaron los documentos.)

Cordiales,

Quevedo

quevedo

Jun 14, 2007, 12:17 PM

Post #17 of 20 (7523 views)

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Re: [quevedo] Prosodic accents

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Accent in the last syllable: the word is aguda. (Camión, benjamín, comer, ventilador.)

Accent in the second syllabe (counting from the last): the word is grave or llana. (Árbol, María, hijo, verde.)

In the third: esdrújula. (Único, esdrújula, llévalo, hígado.)

In the fourth: sobreesdrújula. (Quítamelo, súbetelo, llévatelo.)

Saludo acentuado,

Quevedo

hopalog

Jun 29, 2007, 5:26 AM

Post #18 of 20 (7030 views)

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Re: [quevedo] Prosodic accents

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Ya me tienes perdido.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. What are prosodic accents and what do they have with reflexive verbs. Do I even want to know? Or will you have to shoot me once you tell me? :)

Hell's Half Acre

Flickrlicious

quevedo

Jun 29, 2007, 1:01 PM

Post #19 of 20 (7013 views)

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Re: [hopalog] Prosodic accents

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Acento prosódico: The accent you pronounce. The accent you put on a syllable when you say a word.

Acento ortográfico: The one you write.

Saludos,

Quevedo

jerezano

Jun 29, 2007, 4:28 PM

Post #20 of 20 (7004 views)

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Re: [hopalog] Prosodic accents

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Hello,

Reason we need to show accents in typing. For example: Mandemelo. Send it to me. Where do we accent the word if we have never heard it? Without an accent it would be pronounced mahn de MAY lo. This is incorrect. The word is actually pronounced MAHN de may lo. It is written: Ma' ndemelo.

Adio' s. jerezano. PS: This uses the apostrophe ' as the accent mark for those of us who don't know how to put accents over the letter.j