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viejogatomalo

Apr 18, 2007, 6:20 AM

Post #1 of 24 (5234 views)

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guns

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It would seem that the Mexicanos have the right idea concerning armament for personal use. I shudder to think of those macho drivers (with tequila) also having a gun.
R



Septiembre


Apr 18, 2007, 6:52 AM

Post #2 of 24 (5227 views)

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Re: [viejomalogato] guns

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From what I understand, plenty of Mexicans have guns. Us gringos had better not have one, however! :>)


viejogatomalo

Apr 18, 2007, 7:00 AM

Post #3 of 24 (5226 views)

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Re: [Septiembre] guns

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Truely! Well then, perhaps the US should restrict arms to citizens. However, I still feel the limited possession would be the ideal.
I know the NRA would wring their hands and claim the end of the world as we know it if there is any control. ( is that such a bad idea?)


(This post was edited by viejomalogato on Apr 18, 2007, 7:04 AM)


jennifer rose

Apr 18, 2007, 8:27 AM

Post #4 of 24 (5206 views)

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Re: [viejomalogato] guns

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Please keep the discussion focused upon Mexico. Gun issues affecting the US should be taken elsewhere.


Bubba

Apr 18, 2007, 10:50 AM

Post #5 of 24 (5175 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] guns

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Before Jennifer shuts down this discussion of guns in the U.S., letīs focus on guns in the U.S. and Mexico since there is some misunderstanding about those issues and then Iīll shut up about it.

In an editorial regarding gun ownership in both the U.S. and Mexico, Jaque Mate writes on the editorial page of Guadalajaraīs MURAL for April 18 a rather lengthy editorial piece (Mexican newspapers are given to much more longer winded editorials than U.S. papers so I seldom wade through them) on the subject. Some information from that editorial, which was inspired by the Virginia Tech massacre, might be of interest to the reader:

These are Sr. Mateīs words:

In no other country on the planet where civil order is maintained is it easier to buy firearms than the United States. Official estimates are that there are approximately 200,000,000 firearms legally in the hands of the civilian population of the U.S. which has an approximate total population 300,000,000 people. In Mexico, which has very strict gun laws, the problem is corruption and firearms are widely held but normally purchased as contraband. The law in Mexico permits one to have up to two guns in oneīs home for self-protection but to bear arms outside of the home requires a complex procedure involving the Secretery of Defense which must determine if a person has the real and apparent need to bear arms in public and the approval process involves a battery of psychological and other tests to determine the individualīs stability and social responsibility.

The editorial goes on for many paragraphs regarding that editorial writerīs opinion of the death and destruction caused in the U.S. by all of these guns widely owned but I didnīt mention this to take sides. There is plenty of violence to go around in the U.S. and Mexico and, no doubt, strict gun laws in the U.S. would result in the same sort of corruption one sees in Mexico.

At least, in Mexico, most of these nasty guys are shooting each other which is good. One has to wonder what any civilian in either country needs with a legal pass to walk into their local gunstore and purchase a Glock 9MM Pistol with a 15 bullet chamber when the only conceivable purpose for such a firearm is to kill other human beings and as many as possible in as short a time as possible. Could the acquisition of such a firearm become less likely if one had to go through the black market and commit a crime in acquiring such a formidable weapon? Maybe for a nut case as at Virgina Tech. Maybe not for a determined criminal.

Iīll bet most of you didnīt know you could legally have two guns in your home for self-protection here in Mexico. Donīt, however, shoot that copīs or judgeīs delinquent nephew who breaks into your home to steal your stereo unless you want to make new friends in a Mexican penitentiary.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Apr 18, 2007, 10:54 AM)


Marlene


Apr 18, 2007, 12:22 PM

Post #6 of 24 (5151 views)

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Re: [Septiembre] guns

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Yes, Mexican citizens can obtain permits to keep a firearm. It is not uncommon here to keep one hidden under the counter in a convenience store. One elderly lady we know who owns a little tienda was robbed at knifepoint by two thugs during Semana Santa. She lamented to us that while she has a permit for her firearm she feels she is too old to use it now, and just handed over the entire $120 pesos she had on the premises at the time of the robbery without a fight. Probably a wise decision given she is in her 80's and tiny. I'm sure the cowardly thugs were very disappointed with the haul.

I think guns are alot more common in the ranchos than the cities. If you ever get a chance to be out on a rancho at New Year's Eve you will understand what I mean. In the city, we set off fireworks for the occasion (mostly!) which only sounds like gun fire. :-)


(This post was edited by Marlene on Apr 18, 2007, 12:24 PM)


ignacio

Apr 19, 2007, 9:06 AM

Post #7 of 24 (5045 views)

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Re: [Marlene] guns

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Mexico proves the NRA's old saying:

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"

Yes, there are a few rich and influential individuals that have them, but here most of the guns are in hands of outlaws, be it the local gangster or organized drug cartel mafia.

I for one hope the USA NEVER changes the constitutional right to bear arms, and I wish we had that right here as well..... I believe a lot of the corruption in government is due to the individual citizen not being able to tackle a repressive government.


Bubba

Apr 19, 2007, 10:04 AM

Post #8 of 24 (5024 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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I for one hope the USA NEVER changes the constitutional right to bear arms, and I wish we had that right here as well..... I believe a lot of the corruption in government is due to the individual citizen not being able to tackle a repressive government.

The legal arming of the populace is not historically a recipe for revolution but anarchy. Corrupt governments historically fall when they are spent. Witness the Soviet Union which had extremely strict gun control. Left to their own devices, Saddamīs criminal regime would have self-destructed over time and, perhaps, without the dreadful civil war brought on by foreign intervention. Enver Hoxha in Albania and Nicolae Ceausescu in Romania ran absolute police states where owning a gun could get the average citizen killed but, when their times came they came with a vengeance and from within as well as without - and without an armed populace.

While guns are widely held in Mexico by normal citizens for protection or harvesting of game and by criminal elements, there seems to me to be no rational purpose served by making it legal for the average citizen to own a Glock 9mm 15 round pistol the function of which is to kill other people and as many as possible within the shortest period of time. Just what we need is for all these macho guys to be legally armed out there on the autopista.

I thank God Mexico does not have the liberal gun ownership laws of the United States. Every country has its Cho Seung-hui just stewing away and ready to slaughter others around them. The U.S. made Choīs task easy. Today, I, as a U.S. citizen residing in Mexico with no U.S. address, cannot open a bank account at a U.S. bank but I can walk into a gun store in my native Alabama and buy one of those Glock semi-automatic pistols no sweat. This makes absolutely no sense.

Nothing personal, Ignacio, because you seem like a nice guy but perhaps, if living among people armed to the teeth appeals to you, you might consider living in such places as Sierra Leone or Somalia where it appears that everyone over 13 has an AK 47. Just donīt try to stiff that youthful street vendor in Freetown or heīll blow your ass off.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Apr 19, 2007, 12:57 PM)


Septiembre


Apr 19, 2007, 12:45 PM

Post #9 of 24 (4992 views)

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Re: [Bubba] guns

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You're forgetting something here. The Swiss, for example, are armed to the teeth, indeed they are required to be armed as every one of them is technically a member of the defense forces. Yet there is virtually no firearm crime. It is about the people, not about the guns. Americans have deep social problems, proving that affluence is no cure for same. That is the source of the carnage up here, not the guns.

And who's to say how long the Soviet Union would have lasted if the population had the means to resist?

The point remains that Mexico has plenty of weaponry of its own. I don't own a gun now and don't intend to have one there, even if I could get a permit. As for the druggies, let's not lose sight of where they get the money--from a bunch of Americans with deep social problems.


Bubba

Apr 19, 2007, 5:34 PM

Post #10 of 24 (4948 views)

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Re: [Septiembre] guns

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You're forgetting something here. The Swiss, for example, are armed to the teeth, indeed they are required to be armed as every one of them is technically a member of the defense forces. Yet there is virtually no firearm crime.

Well, sure. Firearm crime creates litter. What to do with those expended shell casings to say nothing of all that blood pouring into the street. Good God, what will the neighborhood think? Revolution is even worse with thousands of expended shell casings and blood and guts everywhere. Maybe we can negotiate periodic street cleaning with the authorities we are trying to overthrow.


johanson


Apr 19, 2007, 7:22 PM

Post #11 of 24 (4930 views)

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Re: [Bubba] guns

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It's been 40 years since I lived in Europe. But as I recollect and I could be very wrong, that the weapons owned by the Swiss, which they kept at home were not pistols but rather large rifles, something you would have a hard time smuggling on campus.

So just maybe the type of guns the Swiss have are less likely to be used to create problems than what we have in the states. I would love some comments on my thoughts.


ignacio

Apr 19, 2007, 8:49 PM

Post #12 of 24 (4906 views)

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Re: [Bubba] guns

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Bubba, one thing is clear in Mexico, the majority of people that currently have guns are either outlaws, OR the ones that want to keep the status quo the way it is.

Your 'average' person is not armed, for he does not have the connections nor the money to buy the weapons.

So Mexico will remain forever in the hands of the few, who have the control (and the weapons), while the poor will continue on their hope that a miracle takes them out of poverty.


caldwelld


Apr 20, 2007, 6:46 AM

Post #13 of 24 (4866 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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Ignacio: Remind us again how citizens ownership of arms in the US changed governements or the power structure there for the better.
dondon


ignacio

Apr 20, 2007, 8:49 AM

Post #14 of 24 (4842 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] guns

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Dondon, just look at the two countries, and it is a no brainer.

Ignacio


caldwelld


Apr 20, 2007, 9:28 AM

Post #15 of 24 (4829 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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Well, colour me naïve! And here I thought, rather than the right to bear arms, it had more to do with a whole gamut of other individual rights and freedoms, the early adoption of democratic principles, good governance and the rule of law.
dondon


ignacio

Apr 20, 2007, 9:35 AM

Post #16 of 24 (4821 views)

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Re: [caldwelld] guns

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You are absolutely correct Dondon, but all theese goodies are preserved and available to the individual when they cannot be taken away, hence the need to bear arms to protect your rights.

Unfortunately, the Patriot Act (what a misnomer) has taken these away, while the citizens were not looking and being fed a rash of half truths and lies.

Ultimately, the citizen still has the POWER to regain what was his, if he/she so desires.


windknot

Apr 20, 2007, 12:30 PM

Post #17 of 24 (4791 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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Getting back to Mexico, I own a shotgun in the US which I fully intend to bring into Mexico, when the time is right. I love to hunt (and eat!...no waste here!) wild game. I am lucky to know Mexican Nationals who share the common bond, and they have said they will help me with the permits. If I remember correctly, one needs only an FM-3, but I am sure that having a permanent residence is highly favorable. However, all in all the process is not that difficult, and is (as is usual in Mexico) more of a waiting game. Guns are purchased from the Mexican Military, once the permit is acquired. It is also necessary to belong to one of several gun clubs, as they have direct ties with the administering authorities, and the military.

I settled in Veracruz, primarily for the great fishing there...but wintertime sees far less opportunity to pursue that love, and so I look forward to shooting skeet and trap, AND serving dove breasts wrapped in bacon, and cooked medium-rare on the grill...to my friends. It is a special treat, and not available anywhere else that I have found. I'm sure that to some of you, this sounds barbaric, and you are entitled to your opinions. Just don't rin on MY parade!


Ron Pickering W3FJW


Apr 20, 2007, 12:52 PM

Post #18 of 24 (4780 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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Ultimately, the citizen still has the POWER to regain what was his, if he/she so desires

Yes Ignacio, we have the power, but what counts is will power and patience. I am still trying to get my pistol back after I unwittingly put it in a pawn shop over two & one half years ago. It seems I had a misdemeanor or record dating back to 1960. Right now after all this time, I'm waiting for the state of PA to say yes or no. If no, then the next and final appeal I have a right to make is with the White House. As I say, will power & patience is necessary as our burocracy has a habit of wearing one down......
Getting older and still not down here.


shoe


Apr 21, 2007, 7:04 AM

Post #19 of 24 (4721 views)

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Re: [viejomalogato] guns

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Does anyone know if a Mexican with a permit, can bring a gun into Mexico from another country where owning a gun is legal?

cya,
shoe

Nothing is intrinsically good or evil, but its manner of usage may make it so.
-St. Thomas Aquinas


Georgia


Apr 21, 2007, 8:07 AM

Post #20 of 24 (4703 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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It has been my experience in my small village that almost every home here has a long gun (as opposed to handguns), legally, for personal protection on the property.


wendy devlin

Apr 21, 2007, 3:19 PM

Post #21 of 24 (4653 views)

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Re: [Georgia] guns

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When our daughter lived for some time, among several ranchitos in Colima and Jalisco, she reported, that in her experience, every family had some kind of firearm, hidden away, 'just in case' even if the piece dated back to the time of the revolution.

However, her in-law(out-laws?) were also fond of hunting. Had been doing so since perhaps time immemorial. Maybe her experience might have been slanted because of the high interest in shooting, trapping and fishing for food.

However in many pueblitos rurales, come midnight on New Year's Eve, you may get some idea of what 'fire-power' still exists in parts of Mexico.

It seems anyone with a firearm, relishes a chance to discharge it into the night sky.

Best be in a building or under an overhang at this particular time of the year.


Moisheh

Apr 21, 2007, 6:38 PM

Post #22 of 24 (4625 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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Wow. Do I feel stupid. Here I am trying to figure out why all the $ in Mexico are in the hands of so few. Ignacio has the answer. Give every Mexican a gun. Not just any weapon but at least an AK. Within a week equality for all will arrive. NEVER in my whole life have I seen such gibberish!!!! Some pistop packin NRA type thinks that Mexico should be as wild as the USA. Please take the next bus back to Nirvana.

Moisheh
Weaponless


ignacio

Apr 21, 2007, 7:47 PM

Post #23 of 24 (4605 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] guns

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I believe you are taking this personally and attacking me.

I never said to give a gun to anyone, least a machine-gun.

What I said is that I believe that I would love to see the right to bear arms, just like in the USA, and that the economic status quo would change quickly if that were to happen.

For your information, I own NO GUN of any kind, and I have never shot any person nor animal for any reason. I have killed a golfer in my backyard once, and quite a few flies, with the normal swatter, not with AK-47.


jennifer rose

Apr 21, 2007, 8:12 PM

Post #24 of 24 (4600 views)

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Re: [ignacio] guns

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This thread, having descended to personal attacks and deviating from its intent, is now locked.
 
 
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