Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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All right, now that we're down to 4 1/2 months until the move SOB, it's time to get serious in our planning:

Where do you score good coffee (beans or prepared) in Oaxaca city?

Because, I am telling you, it was some hard times when we lived there before. My husband finally found a guy who was selling beans from under a stairway in a random building around the corner from Santo Domingo. Our dealer kept the beans in a drawer of an old desk and, while they weren't coffee snob premium quality, they were paradise compared to the Nescafe-a-la-second-class-bus-station.

geri

Mar 12, 2007, 1:27 PM

Post #2 of 62 (6897 views)

Re: [NinaNina] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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It must have been several years since you've been to Oaxaca. Years ago, when you ordered coffee here you got a cup of hot water and a jar of Nescafe. Not any more! There are many, dozens in fact, of gourmet coffee cafes in Oaxaca...you can't miss them. But for the best coffee to make yourself....beans or molido....go to the Friday organic market at Pochote. To get there, take Calle Garcia Vigil north until you see the arches on the west side, scrunch down and enter and voila! you will be in the organic market (I think it happens on Sat too. I only go on Fridays. ) The bags of coffee that I buy from the vendor there are the best...at least that's what my guests tell me!! Cheap too. A 35 peso bag lasts me a long time because it's so concentrated. The area is also known as Los Arcos.

Enjoy Oaxaca!

Mar 12, 2007, 2:25 PM

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Re: [geri] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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There are many, dozens in fact, of gourmet coffee cafes in Oaxaca...you can't miss them.

Well, geri, I´ve sure managed to miss them. I have never had a decent cup of coffee in Oaxaca City and I visit often - my last trip having been in December, 2006. You are not likely to find one coffee house in the zocalo or affluent areas of Oaxaca where the staff is sufficiently skilled to make a fine brew. Keep in mind that I happen to be a big fan of Oaxaca , Chiapas and Veracruz coffees but ordinary people simply don´t drink good coffee, or even bad, coffee in these regions for the most part. They do not even like nor drink coffee and if you get out of the wealthy or tourist oriented areas the coffee is utterly dreadful at all times. I am pleased to say that that is changing slowly. Perhaps this organic coffee market is an answer but, with due respect to geri, I seriously doubt it.

Some points:

* The best coffee beans in "southern Mexico" (Oaxaca, Chiapas & Veracruz) are grown for export not local consumption in an area where the consumption of coffee is not valued. If you find "gourmet" coffee in retail batches in Oaxaca it is likely that it is a tourist ripoff in a fine bag filled with mediocre coffee.

To find really good coffee in this region, concentrate on the historical center of San Cristóbal or Veracruz. My favorite cafe in San Cristóbal is owned by the coffee fincas themselves as a co-operative so they get (some of ) the good beans.

Look, this is not an attack on geri but, think about it. You are going to buy a $35 Peso ( really cheap but size not stated) bag of "concentrated" coffee that is not the dregs? Get serious - the coffee brokers can clean up on great coffee shipping it out of Oaxaca. They are selling you a concept of buying coffee in Oaxaca which might not even be from Oaxaca - not good coffee. Would you expect to go to Havana and buy the best Cuban Rum for peanuts in a local market?

Oaxaca is a beautiful place and geri´s "organic" market may be very nice but I expect you will get better coffee in Chicago.

Don´t come to Mexico for the food or drink.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Mar 12, 2007, 3:51 PM)

Mar 12, 2007, 2:58 PM

Post #4 of 62 (6887 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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"Don´t come to Mexico for the food or drink. "

Depends on what your expectations are, Mr. Gourmet foodie and drinkee. If you have 150 pesos to spend on comida in Mexico, you'll do way better than you would at that price in San Francisco. Or Whine Country. Or are some of us only remembering how dining was when we had the good jobs or were "comped"? Hmmm?

Somewhere beyond the hot water and Nescafe lies a decent cuppa. I've been served the acceptable stuff in most sit-down restaurants. Even in Peoria-by-the-sump.

I do have to agree about "concentrated" coffee, though. I'd be suspicious.

Brian

Mar 12, 2007, 3:29 PM

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Re: [Gringal] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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In Reply To

If you have 150 pesos to spend on comida in Mexico, you'll do way better than you would at that price in San Francisco.

Wow, I'll take that bet....you obviously didn't spend much time in Chinatown when you were up there. Continued Asian immigration and competition has kept the prices low and quality of the food high at all but the restaurants listed in the tourist guides.

Brian

Mar 12, 2007, 3:31 PM

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Re: [Gringal] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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If you have 150 pesos to spend on comida in Mexico, you'll do way better than you would at that price in San Francisco. Or Whine Country.

I promise you Gringal, that you can get a fine complete meal for a hell of a lot less that $150 Pesos in San Francisco including beer or wine. And you can choose among Vietnamese, Thai, Chinese, Malay, Tibetan, Ethiopian, Afganistani, Mexican, Greek, Lebanese, Southern U.S., Indian, Various Caribbean, Cuban, Peruvian, Persian, Brazilian food or on-and-on-and-on and Bubba can head back down to Birmingham and buy about 30 Cheese Krystal Burgers for that which would fill a goat. And, on top of it, most of the time you don´t need a stomach pump the next morning.

When you finish your meal you can enjoy Arabic, Vietnamese, Turkish, Italian, French, American, Cuban or a dozen other varieties of coffee or a thousand varieties of teas or maybe curdled Yak milk and hot rancid butter with Somalian Khat and still be spending less that $150 Pesos. Who do you think you are kidding? People in this country don´t know good coffee from Adam´s housecat unless they follow Bubba around.

Even the Mexican food is better in San Francisco´s Mission (Latin) District than in most of Mexico and at least as cheap.
You have lived in San Miguel too long.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Mar 12, 2007, 3:40 PM)

Mar 12, 2007, 4:51 PM

Post #7 of 62 (6858 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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I lived in S.F. and environs for years; in San Miguel for three. I note that ALL the places you mentioned were ethnic food joints. I was referring to the kind of places most "foodies" frequent. You know, arugula with baby funt fish eggs for an outrageous price. My point, godhalpus, was that if you headed for a "white tablecloth restaurant" in Mexico, you could get a better meal for your $150 pesos than in its "counterpart" in the U.S. Lets keep the veggies and fruits in different baskets here.

Yes, I'd take the Chinese, Thai or any other variety you mentioned over Mexican any day, any time.

And don't get me started on that Crystal Burger train of thought. Sliders, indeed. That is not FOOD. It is sweet memories of high school and Betty Jo.

I do grant you the point that Mexican food in CA is a lot better than Mexican food in Mexico. There has to be a reason for Mexican workers being lined up at the Taco Bell in Santa Cruz.

Mea culpa, already.
Sort of.

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Mar 12, 2007, 5:29 PM

Post #8 of 62 (6853 views)

Re: [Gringal] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Just as Chinese food NOB is American Chinese food made to please the NOB pallett, I've found that the same applies NOB to Mexican food with the possible exception of both mentioned of "true" ethnic food eateries. Just depends upon what one has been raised on and is accustomed to. Don't think this applies to coffee though.
Getting older and still not down here.

Mar 12, 2007, 7:07 PM

Post #9 of 62 (6842 views)

Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Just as Chinese food NOB is American Chinese food made to please the NOB pallett, I've found that the same applies NOB to Mexican food with the possible exception of both mentioned of "true" ethnic food eateries

Ron and Gringal:

There is a miscommunication taking place here. When I stated that Mexican and other Latin American food prepared and presented in San Francisco´s Mission District was generally better than Mexican food in much of Mexico (read Latin American food) I was talking about Mexican, Central American, Caribbean and South American food prepared in a vibrant and cosmopolitan Latin American community catering to Latin American tastes in San Francisco - not NOB tastes. There is so much misunderstanding here.

Gringal remarks about Taco Bell in Santa Cruz and, as much as I like and admire Gringal, that misses the point entirely. I give her credit that she was joking but this is fairly serious stuff and trivializes my point.

The energy and cosmopolitan environment of a London or a Paris generates an enthusiasm for native cuisines among immigrants to those places as in San Francisco so one finds some of the best authentic East Indian food in the world in London and best authentic North African and West African food in the world in Paris. In San Francisco, the enthusiasm of the entrepreneurial immigants attracted to that cultural soup of The Mission attracts competitive and creative chefs who build on and improve old traditions. In my hometown of Ajijic, every mom within blocks sets up to sell her leftovers and the standards for taste and cleanliness are deplorable. This happens in The Mission as well but for mainstream success in The Mission you had better have some talent. In Ajijic, the standards among locals and expats alike are deplorable and the food is mediocre at best.

The gene pool is improved by the mix. You hang around the woods in Mexico or the United States or France or anywhere else and you become limited and yourself eventually a product of re-used grease and tired, uninterested people who never had the guts to enter the Sherwood Forest. That´s the way it is.

The best Arab markets in the world are in Paris, not religiously fundamental Algiers just as the best coffee markets in the world are in many places internationally but never in Oaxaca, an insular, self-satisfied place of only regional importance.

Ajijic and Oaxaca and San Miguel and other expat conclaves are becoming victims of their own mental inbreeding whether they like to hear that or not. They suffer from defensive self-aggrandizement. It´s rather sad.

Prove me wrong. Let´s get the blood up.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Mar 12, 2007, 7:35 PM)

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Mar 12, 2007, 7:40 PM

Post #10 of 62 (6831 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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No arguement from me Bubba. The places you refer to are those that I would consider ethnic type restaurants which probably have higher prices. I'm speaking mostly of the, how can I phrase it.....The middle of the pack that caters to the majority of the folks, not the Taco Bells & fast food joints, but the walk in, wait to be seated restaurants that claim to be Mexican, Chinese, etc. These sell American style ethnic foods that were created for our consumption & taste, unlike the native foods of those countries which most of us might never let pass our lips due to what it is made from and the way it is prepared.
Coffee is different as coffee seems to be universally prepared the same the same no matter where you are. It's just that there are good coffee beans and bad coffee beans, but all are roasted. Some under and some over roasted and some are just right (depending upon ones own taste buds)..

I never did figure out how to get fries with my hamburgesa on my short visit last year.......
Getting older and still not down here.

esperanza

Mar 12, 2007, 7:48 PM

Post #11 of 62 (6829 views)

Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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In Reply To

I never did figure out how to get fries with my hamburgesa on my short visit last year.......

Just order papas a la francesa...

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

NinaNina

Mar 12, 2007, 8:16 PM

Post #12 of 62 (6823 views)

Re: [geri] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Oh, Geri, I am filled with emoticons at the notion that there may be better coffee for my husband (not Bubba-certified level, but improved), whose constant refrain a decade ago was about how this little place had opened, but then closed, and it had the only acceptable cuppa, and so on.

I used to walk around Los Arcos a bit, but maybe that was before the organic market days. It seems to me Oaxaca may have changed more than I could imagine.

And in regard to food, well, I never once found in SF, Oakland, Berkeley, the kind of super-funky inky inky mole that the cook at Maria Bonita conujred up in Oaxaca city. But maybe I didn't bother to look too hard, because, for me, the food and the city belonged together. And in regard to Bay Area prices, I noticed quite a few ethnic restaurants inching up their prices in the last 3-4 years I was in the Bay Area, as the real estate boom boomed ever larger. My husband and I had a strict $10 per person limit on going out, and our choices of restaurants were ever-winnowing.

sfmacaws

Mar 12, 2007, 8:33 PM

Post #13 of 62 (6820 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Don't forget the wonderful Indian food in London where you don't have to worry that the meat spoiled last week but the curry is covering the stench.

I lived in SF and environs and worked there for 30 years and there was never a dearth of new restaurants to try or old favorites to share with friends. Still, I think some of the hygiene requirements were a big plus. Granted, the health dept crew that checked the Chinese restaurants in Chinatown and out in the Avenues was overworked and often bribed. The ones who worked the Mission had the same problems but on a smaller scale. Still, the meat they started with in almost all cases was cleaner and more regulated. That's the plus side. The minus side is that there was a limited supply of street food and some types of Mexican food just would never be allowed in the US. I never saw Tacos al Pastor (or Elotes con Mayonesa from an open unrefrigerated jar)on a street corner in the Mission, it may be there but I'm sure it is prepared differently or the health dept would have a hissy fit.

OK, all that aside. The best Mexican food in the Bay Area is not in the Mission but in San Jose. The best Mexican food in California is somewhere around Fresno and the Mexican food in LA is head and shoulders above that in SF. In addition to having the best Mexican food, LA has the best hamburgers in the WORLD and at one point in my life I decided that was the definition of the center of the Known Universe. Tommy's was the thing all the galaxies revolved around. Who knows if it's still there so maybe the galaxies now move around a different axis.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Mar 13, 2007, 7:35 AM

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Re: [sfmacaws] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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I decided that was the definition of the center of the Known Universe. Tommy's was the thing all the galaxies revolved around. Who knows if it's still there so maybe the galaxies now move around a different axis.

We were in agreement more or less up until then but you were talking about L.A. and then brought up Tommy´s. You would not perhaps be talking about Tommy´s Joynt on Van Ness in San Francisco would you? Buffalo Stew? 10,000 beers? Tommy´s was what is known in California as a "hofbrau" style place and while I would not agree that the food was any good (if that´s the place you are talking about) I used to love to go there to quaff Bulmer´s Woodpecker Cider- several at a time.

I don´t know if Tommy´s is still there but, through my banking connections, I knew Tommy many years back and he be dead.

By the way there are so many wonderful coffee joints in San Francisco that it is coffee Lourdes while Oaxaca isn´t even in the same universe and Peets of Berkeley (brand) is the holy communion "wine" of the high cathedral. When you visit me in Chiapas, I expect you to bring me a little of the best coffee on the planet (yes. I know, coals to Newcastle but coffee roasting is an art).

You and I know that the closest California comes to street food is the ubiquitous roach coach where you can get some fine street food if you don´t stop to think about it. This is a public health issue. In the 60s when I first moved to L.A. al fresco dining at restaurants was illegal because the authorities considered outside serving to be unhealthy. Come to think of it, with their smog back then, maybe they were right.

Last night, while driving through the poor Six Corners section of Ajijic, I noted at least three community ladies selling elotes con mayonesa on the main drag of Ocampo. Both steamed and al carbon. I buy from them because I am fond of the toothsome, non-sweet, old fashioned corn to which Mexicans are partial but I never let them slather on their cheap unrefrigerated mayonnaise and bland Mexican cheese. I like to take the elotes home and use Best Foods Mayo, real grated parmesan, cumin powder and ground chile arbol. A fine treat. Elotes vendors can be found on many street corners in San Cristóbal as well and probably all over Mexico. At least with the corn, if you get the turista you may enjoy it.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Mar 13, 2007, 11:04 AM)

Brian

Mar 13, 2007, 7:44 AM

Post #15 of 62 (6792 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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In Reply To

We were in agreement more or less up until then but you were talking about L.A. and then brought up Tommy´s. You would not perhaps be talking about Tommy´s Joynt on Van Ness in San Francisco would you?

No,no,no.....LA has it's own Tommy's tradition. Look here: http://www.originaltommys.com/story.html

Brian

sfmacaws

Mar 13, 2007, 10:02 AM

Post #16 of 62 (6778 views)

Re: [Brian] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Brian's got it! The best hamburger in the universe came from Tommy's on Beverly not Tommy's Joint on Van Ness.

It seems they are not only still in business but have spread throughout the LA Basin. I will have to have one this summer and see if they still compare to those in my memory.

Thanks for that link.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Mar 13, 2007, 10:31 AM

Post #17 of 62 (6775 views)

Re: [sfmacaws] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Yes. Fresno, of all places. Spent some time there on business. There's a large Armenian population and their restaurants are food heaven.

Then there's L.A., also a mecca for good eating. I'm still savoring the distant memory of pizza cum opera at Macelli's. Original Tommy's gets a vote, too.

Irony: You don't necessarily get the best ethnic food in the country of origin. In Italy, the pizza is nada and the "Italian" food is usually better elsewhere. Mexican food is better in the Mission district of S.F. Chinese-food-loving friends went to China and were disappointed, except for one very high end hotel that catered to tourists.

We can't discount the observation that chefs NOB adjust the cuisine to please NOB tastes, Or that our tastes are trained so we can't appreciate the authentic flavos.

Re street food: When the food is prepared and served by the same person taking the money sans gloves, alarms go off. There is no way to enjoy turista, which I have also experienced after eating in the "finer" restaurants in Mexico as well as the taco joints.

Bubba's point about the natives resenting the foreigners, whether expressed openly or not, is true enough. If I expected the Mexican people to have good feelings about me, deep down, I would be unhappy here. All I expect of my fellow humans is the same level of politeness that I offer them in return. Plus, I tip generously. What kind of feelings can we expect, anyway, from waiters who probably don't earn as much in a day as the cost of our dinner? We live like royalty here because the economy produces so many poor people.
They see our lifestyle and, like the poor everywhere, are envious and resentful. Life is unfair, everywhere. The utter fools among expats are those that mistake a pleasant smile for true affection.

Now, back to our discussion is about where to find the finest food and coffee.

Mar 13, 2007, 11:13 AM

Post #18 of 62 (6768 views)

Re: [Brian] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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No,no,no.....LA has it's own Tommy's tradition. Look here: http://www.originaltommys.com/story.html

Well, damn. I lived in Hermosa Beach and later in Hollywood and never knew about this place. All those Hamburger Haven burgers and no Tommy´s At least, Brian, you have restored my faith in Jonna´s taste. If she had meant Tommy´s Joynt I would have been soarly disappointed but she was a San Francisco County employee for some time headquartered near there and that´s where I figured she might hang-out once in a while.

Actually, I didn´t know what I should about L.A. despite living there because my boss hated me and had me permanantly traveling to the dreaded San Joaquin Valley in hopes I would quit - especially the much despised Fresno -the worst town in the Universe. There, however, I did often eat at the famous Rustigan´s Armenian Restaurant.

Speaking of Armenian food from Fresno, you can buy Armenian Cracker Bread at Super Lake in San Antonio Tlayacapan on occasion and make those supurb Lavosch sandwiches right here in Mexico. I will be scoring cracker bread at Lake Chapala for my Chiapas care package.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Mar 13, 2007, 11:20 AM)

Mar 13, 2007, 11:52 AM

Post #19 of 62 (6759 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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You know, many of you may find this an irritating post but the subject is Oaxaca so here goes.

I have a love/hate relationship with Oaxaca and, actually it is the city we were most likely to retire to in Mexico when we started considering such a move. The city has an extraordinary historic center of great beauty in my opinion but the city as a whole is close to anarchic even in good times with uncontrolled and extraordinarily rude drivers (give me Mexico City anyday), terrible noise and air pollution, completely undisciplined, dangerous and unaccountable bus drivers, seemingly unplanned and irrational traffic patterns and residential/commercial growth, immense and ingrained political corruption, unbelievable inequity in delivery of infrastructural municipal services, a disparity of wealth distribution that borders on criminal and worst of all:

Lousy food and lousy coffee. Not only that, even the best of its much touted mezcal can´t hold a candle to even bad tequila.

I have eaten in many restaurants and ordered coffee in many cafes in Oaxaca and every single meal or cup of coffee I have ever ordered in Oaxaca has been dreadful with one exception. The original Casa Oaxaca restaurant used to be supurb. Of fine European standards. They went south for a while since they opened that branch but I hope they have recovered their common sense. I will try them again on our next visit.

We looked at Oaxaca, Mérida and San Cristóbal as potential places for our Southern Mexico headquarters and, while the food is not so great in Chiapas either, at least they can make a fine cup of coffee. Actually, San Cristóbal and Chiapas as a whole do have many problems as well but San Cristóbal is between Oaxaca City and Mérida (my other two favorite cities in Mexico) and that´s a plus.

But, God are the most highly touted restaurants in Oaxaca overrated. They tend to be greasy street stalls or tourist traps of no merit.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Mar 13, 2007, 11:54 AM)

Mar 13, 2007, 2:42 PM

Post #20 of 62 (6739 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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A friend of mine from New York City used to say: "If ya want good food, eat ta home". After checking out most of the highly touted SMA eateries, we mostly "eat ta home" these days. Between Superlake and your own culinary efforts, you should have a fine spread.

wendy devlin

Mar 13, 2007, 3:55 PM

Post #21 of 62 (6733 views)

Re: [Gringal] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Before, you foodies, erupt in a collective apoplectic fit:)

Consider this señor(a)...All food is good food when you're hungry.

Then, there's the niggling notion of 'comfort food'.
A Buddhist monk pal once advised, "when you're truly happy, you can digest rocks.

Never been able to personally prove this....still gnawing on a particular not-so-tasty rock:)

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Mar 13, 2007, 6:59 PM)

Mar 13, 2007, 4:52 PM

Post #22 of 62 (6721 views)

Re: [wendy devlin] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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Who was it that said "The secret of good cowboy cooking is hunger"?

Right on, Wendy. Good luck with that rock. Try some salsa on it . If that doesn't do it, try the tequila.

wendy devlin

Mar 13, 2007, 6:55 PM

Post #23 of 62 (6710 views)

Re: [Gringal] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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That might work.

Even cowgirls get the blues:)

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Mar 13, 2007, 7:18 PM)

Bloviator

Mar 14, 2007, 6:56 AM

Post #24 of 62 (6691 views)

Re: [Bubba] Scoring good coffee in Oaxaca city

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I think that Tommy's is still there, we went past last week and it looked the same. I had forgotten the name, but your posting reminded me.

When in an unnamed and very nondescript college, we used to go there at night for roast beef sandwiches and more beer after a night out in The City.

There are no hamburgers better than those at Fat Burger. Not at Tommy's, Original Tommy's, Tommy's #1 through Tommy's #32, not even the ambrosia burger at Nepenthe - though the view and ambiance more than make up for any lack of superiority.

Mar 14, 2007, 7:24 AM

Post #25 of 62 (6687 views)