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cdubee

Feb 21, 2007, 7:22 AM

Post #1 of 60 (6995 views)

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unfortunately 95% foreigners?

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OK, I give up. Why do I keep reading phrases in these forums such as "unfortunately 95% foreigners." ?????? I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what others say.


(This post was edited by jennifer rose on Feb 21, 2007, 7:58 AM)



esperanza

Feb 21, 2007, 7:54 AM

Post #2 of 60 (6969 views)

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Re: [cdubee] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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In Reply To
OK, I give up. Why do I keep reading phrases in these forums such as "unfortunately 95% foreigners." ?????? I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what others say.

I've just re-read every post in this thread, but I find no reference to what you mention.

Moderator, maybe this post by cdubee should be the start of a new thread of its own. The topic is interesting and might get lost in this one.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









(This post was edited by esperanza on Feb 21, 2007, 7:55 AM)


Gringal

Feb 21, 2007, 7:58 AM

Post #3 of 60 (6962 views)

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Re: [cdubee] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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I'd like to hear the truth, too. I still don't get it.


Jerry@Ajijic

Feb 21, 2007, 8:09 AM

Post #4 of 60 (6955 views)

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Re: [Gringal] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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I am a little curious about why or what Jennifer "edited" in cdubee's message.


bournemouth

Feb 21, 2007, 8:38 AM

Post #5 of 60 (6944 views)

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Re: [Jerry@Ajijic] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Jerry - I think it has been moved out of a larger thread into a thread of its own.


cdubee

Feb 21, 2007, 8:51 AM

Post #6 of 60 (6936 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Well, in a discussion of neighborhoods, one person wrote the following about one of the neighborhoods he/she had lived in:
"I loved it for two years, but also love it where we now live, out in the quiet environs of Vista Del Lago, which, unfortunately is 85 to 90% foreigners. "
That seems like an unfortunate remark and I wonder what it is about?


Gringal

Feb 21, 2007, 9:47 AM

Post #7 of 60 (6917 views)

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Re: [cdubee] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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I live in a Mexican neighborhood in SMA. Just listed the house for sale, and the realtor tells me that it's a definite "plus" feature. He says new expats like that idea. He didn't say why. Maybe I should ask. I wonder if he tells them about the fireworks at 4 a.m.? Maybe I shouldn't ask.


(This post was edited by Gringal on Feb 21, 2007, 10:11 AM)


esperanza

Feb 21, 2007, 9:55 AM

Post #8 of 60 (6912 views)

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Re: [cdubee] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Maybe rather than have us second-guess what it means, the original poster (patricio_lintz, I believe) could come and tell us himself.

Patricio, come talk to us! Inquiring minds want to know...

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patricio_lintz


Feb 21, 2007, 12:24 PM

Post #9 of 60 (6878 views)

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Re: [esperanza] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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The colonos has all of the typical politics of any retirement community. I liked Chapala neighbors better, but not the noise.


Bubba

Feb 21, 2007, 12:25 PM

Post #10 of 60 (6878 views)

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Re: [cdubee] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Well, in a discussion of neighborhoods, one person wrote the following about one of the neighborhoods he/she had lived in:
"I loved it for two years, but also love it where we now live, out in the quiet environs of Vista Del Lago, which, unfortunately is 85 to 90% foreigners. "
That seems like an unfortunate remark and I wonder what it is about?


Allow me to explain cdubee:

I cannot speak for the original poster and will not attempt to do so. However, I have no problem re-phrasing the point.

I have lived in the quiet environs of Ajijic for almost six years on a property I love. Unfortunately, Ajijic is overrun with foreigners and this displeases me. That doesn´t mean that there is anything inherently wrong with the large foreign presence in this commnunity, simply that that large foreign presence impacts the community in a way that I personally find unpleasant. During our first years here, it was helpful to live in a place where we could avail ourselves of local goods and services without having to cope with language and cultural barriers and that is a good idea for newcomers. However, it is unfortunate that this in- migration insulates us from the local community and discourages the hard work needed to understand that community and, to the extent possible, assimilate into it over time.

Just the other day, one of us met a Mexican woman in Guadalajara who lives in Los Angeles. She owns a home in Jalisco and her family is encouraging her to sell it and move full time to L.A. She lamented that it is really hard for her to learn English and understand American culture since evereybody with whom she interracts in Los Angeles speaks Spanish.

Human nature is what it is no matter where you are from.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Feb 21, 2007, 1:30 PM)


Gringal

Feb 21, 2007, 1:20 PM

Post #11 of 60 (6872 views)

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Re: [Bubba] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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"That doesn´t mean that there is anything inherently wrong with the large foreign presence in this commnunity, simply that that large foreign presence impacts the community in a way that I personally find unpleasant."

That is as vague a statement as the "unfortunately". It is not like Bubba to be vague. Quite the contrary.
So what's the "unpleasant" about?


Bubba

Feb 21, 2007, 2:05 PM

Post #12 of 60 (6859 views)

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Re: [Gringal] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Ah, foolish Gringal,living in and watching the soul of the once-glorious San Miguel de Allende lose its pleasant ancient patina as it is suffocated by hordes of nouveau riche philistines drawn as swine to pearls, why would you think Bubba so naive as to be induced into making light of population trends at Lomas De Journey´s End Gated Estates Phase XIX (with free adjacent real Mexican village filled with real Mexicans)?

I did not just get off of the camión de nabo you know.

Lakeside is a fine place. As we used to say in South Alabama, "Yáll come on down, y´hear."


(This post was edited by Bubba on Feb 21, 2007, 2:07 PM)


sfmacaws


Feb 21, 2007, 2:23 PM

Post #13 of 60 (6846 views)

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Re: [Bubba] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Well, I can think of a couple of reasons why living with 90+% foreigners is not so great.

One is language. My spanish is going nowhere over here on the Riviera Maya, in fact I think it is getting worse. Almost the only time I use it is with the maid and she has such a heavy Mayan accent that I am unfortunately getting used to as I forget how to hear more normal spanish.

Sort of related is that it is a PITA to understand all the BS and political and social backbiting that goes on in a small town. I think I'd rather it all went over my head or at least that others thought I wouldn't understand it anyway and spared me the details.

Plus, everything is more expensive.

Plus, when too many of us crowd into a place the locals get a little sick of us. I can't imagine why that is, but it happens. So, you get a more cynical attitude, a quicker assumption that you are just another shallow gringa, and other not so wonderful stereotypes.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Gringal

Feb 21, 2007, 2:45 PM

Post #14 of 60 (6834 views)

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Re: [Bubba] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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 Slippery devil. Just you wait, though. Today it's Lakeside and San Miguel. Tomorrow, San Cristobal. The Borg cometh. "Resistance is futile".


(This post was edited by Gringal on Feb 21, 2007, 2:47 PM)


esperanza

Feb 21, 2007, 4:19 PM

Post #15 of 60 (6812 views)

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Re: [Gringal] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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76,000,000 (SEVENTY SIX MILLION) baby boomers will retire in the United States in the next 10 years.

A percentage of those will move (and indeed are already moving) to Mexico.

Just think, those of us who are already here are the avant garde. The stampeding hooves are at our backs.

Watch out. The Borg is definitely on the move.


http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









ellijo

Feb 21, 2007, 5:38 PM

Post #16 of 60 (6792 views)

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Re: [cdubee] unfortunately 95% foreigners?

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Although I can't speak for the OP, I argue often with my husband about what I consider to be the equivalent of a reverse paper bag test. I would never in a million years have the opportunity to meet as many Americans that I am likely to have something in common with as I do here South of the Border, and it is a great gift. That doesn't mean that I have something in commmon with everyone I meet, but the filter of desiring to live here rather than there gives me a big head start. I don't think that it is a better or more authentic experience to deal exclusively with our Mexican hosts. Here in San Antonio Tlayacapan, our Mexican neighbors are delightful, noisy, sentimental, and musical, and I'm sure some are a-holes as well.
Generally, I think that the oft voiced opinion that the majority of expats are nothing more than a relocated polyester suburb is unobservant and tiresome.



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Bubba

Feb 21, 2007, 8:05 PM

Post #17 of 60 (6754 views)

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Re: [Gringal] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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 Slippery devil. Just you wait, though. Today it's Lakeside and San Miguel. Tomorrow, San Cristobal. The Borg cometh. "Resistance is futile".
Gringal


Good God, Gringal!

Hordes of polyester clad garden clubbers bypassing Lake Chapala and descending on Chiapas to hold endless koffeeklatches and bridge games in gated country clubs high up in the Central Massif of Chiapas on hillsides overlooking my precious San Cristóbal de Las Casas?!?!?! What am I to do in the face of this massive baby boomer migration? Hide in the Lacandon Jungle with poison tipped spear perhaps to open a balneario complete with pyramid water slides replicating an ancient Mayan ruin I´ll name Bonampark so I can earn a little spare change by flying geezers from Peoria in for weekends complete with sound and light shows? I must warn adventurous geezers inclined to skip the delights of San Miguel and Ajijic and settle in the old rundown city of San Cristóbal that it is really hard to breathe at 7,000 feet, that it is as cold as Hillary Clinton´s campaign manager and that the place is surrounded by hostile indians itching to get even for 400 years of repression by generations of honkies. I might add that my new best friend SubComandante Marcos AKA Delegado Zero of the EZLN may find your presence unwelcome and turn on you without warning if he or his minions catch you wearing bermuda shorts with black knee socks in the main plaza.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Feb 21, 2007, 8:13 PM)


Bloviator

Feb 21, 2007, 8:57 PM

Post #18 of 60 (6734 views)

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Re: [Gringal] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Sorry Gringal. There is no lack of specificity in Bubba's posting. He finds it unpleasant the way that things are changing as a result of our coming here. I personally find it OK. That is where we disagree. He has been here awhile and I'm new (2 years). The change does not please him. I find it OK. That is what makes us different.

I think that his point that being in Ajijic for awhile to become accustomed to Mexico is a good thing and then spreading ones wings to go somewhere else is superb. I love living in Mexico light and hope that I will always love it. However, if my wife were not part of the package, I might consider moving into real Mexico (I really don't want to get into a discussion of what real Mexico is. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go on to the next posting).


Bloviator

Feb 21, 2007, 9:12 PM

Post #19 of 60 (6729 views)

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Re: [esperanza] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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My sister visited last week. She went back home to Sacramento and told her friends about the great place she had seen. Most told her she was crazy and that they could neve live in dangerous and dirty Mexico.

Thank God.


bournemouth

Feb 22, 2007, 6:36 AM

Post #20 of 60 (6692 views)

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Re: [Bubba] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Just stop talking about Chiapas - you're attracting attention - being a magnet for those unable to imagine life without Bubba in the vicinity - but I think it's already too late - you have told too much - we're on our way, leading a caravan of escapees. Gringal is coming with us - I have p.m'd her the date of departure (which is secret) and am waiting to hear back on a place to meet.


Bubba

Feb 22, 2007, 6:40 AM

Post #21 of 60 (6697 views)

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Re: [dlyman6500] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Dlyman writes:

He finds it unpleasant the way that things are changing as a result of our coming here.

Quite to the contrary, Dick. It is not the abundance of foreigners coming here that bothers me it is the attitude of many of the new breed of foreigners coming here that offends me. I do not include you or people like you in that group. If I am not mistaken, you are inquisitive about your new home, explore it with zeal, reach out to your new hosts and treat them and their customs with appropriate respect.I suspect you at least try to communicate in the local language when possible. As far as I know you do not dwell upon trying to mold Mexico to your notions of how a society should function based on a lifetime of experience in your native culture.

This new breed I abhor consists largely of retirees who insulate themselves from Mexico, are here, perhaps, for the weather or the affordable cost of living and are interested in the local culture only insofar as it serves their day-to-day earthly needs. They act like colonists without a colony. As time goes by, these people will infest this region hiding behind guarded gates venturing out only for visits to Super Lake, at least until Pancho starts an extensive home delivery service, and contributing to an unhealthy social stratification in the community. That´s fine and will enrich clever locals who learn how to exploit this phenomenon but it´s not my cup of tea.

That is not to say that there are not a lot of fine extranjeros here who contribute greatly in many ways to this community.


Bubba

Feb 22, 2007, 6:43 AM

Post #22 of 60 (6694 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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Just stop talking about Chiapas - you're attracting attention - being a magnet for those unable to imagine life without Bubba in the vicinity

As you know bournemouth, I enjoy a little sardonic humor in the morning over my (Chiapas Dark Roast) coffee.


Bloviator

Feb 22, 2007, 9:55 AM

Post #23 of 60 (6644 views)

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Re: [Bubba] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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I certainly hope you have described me correctly. I believe that if we are to live here, we must understand the culture as best we can - never easy and probably only partially possible. We certainly aren't in Kansas anymore and we are definitely in a place that is much different than what we knew before in our lifetimes.

I loved everywhere I ever lived - except possibly La Mesa, Texas from which I ran as fast as I could. I really can't explain what it is about Ajijic that I love. So much of it is just the feeling I get walking in the village, playing tennis at the lake, interacting on the forums, watching the sunrises and sunsets, talking to locals and expats in a variety of settings, and just generally hanging out.

The importance of learning Spanish if we are to live here was driven home to me early in the week when we drove to Sahuayo. On the way back we passed a wreck that had just happened. My friend had a cell phone programmed for the Jocotepec police - an excellent idea - and called them. I spoke to them as my Spanish - though horrible - was the best in the car. No one else called them and if I hadn't spoken enough Spanish to get across the location and the fact of serious injuries, they would have been without help for a long time. ONE MUST SPEAK SPANISH IF ONE IS TO LIVE HERE.


(This post was edited by dlyman6500 on Feb 22, 2007, 10:06 AM)


Septiembre


Feb 22, 2007, 1:14 PM

Post #24 of 60 (6609 views)

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Re: [Bubba] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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And you will kindly import said Chiapas coffee back to Super Lake for those less fortunate coffee addicted folks? :>)

BTW, haven't had a really good cup of coffee down there yet. Sure hope there's someplace that sells good beans.


bournemouth

Feb 22, 2007, 1:50 PM

Post #25 of 60 (6600 views)

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Re: [Septiembre] living in Lake Chapala area in a more Mexican neighbourhood

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I'll reply for Bubba as he and I buy our beans in the same place. You obviously did not find your way to the Cafe del Sur, across from the Church in Ajijic, who roast beans every day and sell a fine product. He likes dark roast Chiapas, we like Oaxacan medium roast. The people who run this outfit are exceptionally nice, their beans come from Oaxaca, Chiapas and Veracruz. Fair trade organic coffee. We can recommend them highly.
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