Forums > Specific Focus > Home, Garden & Construction in Mexico

sfmacaws

Feb 13, 2007, 4:27 PM

Post #1 of 23 (7212 views)

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Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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I'm trying to do some research on this for the Mérida ruin. I tried searching here and didn't find much, tried google and found less that was relevant. So, what would be a good search term for this, is it really a voltage regulator that I'm talking about or something else?

What I want it to do is drop the voltage from the normal highs of 132V to 142V down to a reasonable 120V, I want it to do some surge protection although I read I would still need something else for the computers, anyone know why?

Anyone have experience having one of these installed in a new house or a major renovation? Any recommendations for brand or model? Any idea how much they cost?

Just some good search pointers would be helpful as well.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Rolly / Moderator

Feb 13, 2007, 5:06 PM

Post #2 of 23 (7203 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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I searched from "voltage regulator" on MexConnect and for a LOT: click here

Rolly Pirate

sfmacaws

Feb 13, 2007, 5:34 PM

Post #3 of 23 (7196 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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I know Rolly, and I read through all of those. Most of that is talking about small voltage regulators that you buy and plug your important stuff into. I have two of them now. The only person I saw that talked about a whole house installation was Georgia and hers was because of LOW voltage not high. I could easily be wrong but the solution for low voltage sounds to me more like a UPS than something that lowers voltage. There were threads, and I was in some of them, about doing this for RVs and for individual items. That's not what I'm wanting to do here.

Since all the electric will be new in this house and since I know going into it that the voltage is very high, I'd like a solution that did not involve 15 or 20 little boxes spread around the house at $25 bucks apiece.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

yucatandreamer

Feb 14, 2007, 9:10 AM

Post #4 of 23 (7163 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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I would check with Henry Ponce about this. If it can be done he will probably be able to advise you. I have never heard of anyone doing this, but I have tuned out renovation stories for the past year or so. They are akin to sitting in a room with a bunch of new mothers with everyone talking about their baby but not hearing anyone else.

I would offer some completely unsolicited advice however. Try not to do what is not normally done. The Yucatecos seem to pride themselves on doing everything they way they always have. This trait that can be kind of cute (all restaurants with Yucatecan food will have the same menu wherever you are), but will break your heart in a home project. I can almost guarantee that any deviation from what is the norm will be a continuing source of irritation for years to come. They will try to accommodate your desires(whims, aberrations) but the actual workers do not have the skills or tools to produce what you may envision. See Merida Insider, Starting out in Merida, Renovations in Merida, April 22, 2006 for LeAnne's post for one of the best descriptions of home renovation I have ever read. Much of it will not apply to you and you will find it funny, but it is full of truth and excellent advice.

This is not to say that there is not the capability to do wonderful work and create beautiful homes. There is fine work being done as long as it is the work that the artisans are comfortable with.

sfmacaws

Feb 14, 2007, 9:35 AM

Post #5 of 23 (7158 views)

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Re: [yucatandreamer] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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You are right, I know that. I'm one that likes to know as much as possible about something beforehand and I research it to death online when I can. I would like to understand the options even if they are not really an option for us.

On the other hand, I have an electrician over here that I trust. I intend to run the electrical plans by him and if it doesn't look right to him I will ask to bring him over. He is Mexican but from Mexico so that might not be very popular, thus I'd rather not do it.

I may still end up with these little boxes sitting behind chairs and everywhere as I have here, I'd just rather not.

I'm happy to live with local ways of building in almost all areas, my electronics are more important to me and that is the area I want to get the best protection I can.

I've lived in an RV for 5 years, mainly on solar power and with quite a bit of electronics. If I can figure that out I feel I can at least understand the concepts for a house.

I'm quite willing to do something like ask for them to run a heavier grade of wire and see that it is used and then bring Rodrigo in and re-do what I don't like.

I know there are a lot of people in places like Ajijic and SMA that do have whole house regulators, I was hoping to get some more information about that.

One thing I noticed on MeridaInsider is that there is not a construction/renovation section. I guess everyone is sick of the questions but already I'm sick of the 'how hot is it' stuff and would be a lot more interested in how stuff is built.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

yucatandreamer

Feb 14, 2007, 10:10 AM

Post #6 of 23 (7149 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Sounds like a good plan. Heck I have extension cords tacked to the wall over most of my house and I sincerely doubt anything is grounded or protected. So far we have been lucky, but almost everyone I know has lost something electronic. I agree that improving on the electrical (and plumbing) in any home should be a priority. Just don't start dreaming about a "green roof" or in ground sprinklers on timer or some of the crazy discussions I have seen on MI. Most of the folks there just want to complain about something, the heat, the real estate salesmen and their architects. Mexico Bob, the sites originator, lost a lot of stuff to a lightening strike and he has a whole lot of computer equipment(Web sites are his business). He is also a very nice man and could probably be of some help if you PM him.

Rolly / Moderator

Feb 14, 2007, 10:36 AM

Post #7 of 23 (7143 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Try these folks http://www.solaheviduty.com/index.htm

I have worked with their equipment in broadcast stations. Top quality gear at top quality prices.

Rolly Pirate

sfmacaws

Feb 14, 2007, 11:39 AM

Post #8 of 23 (7131 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Thanks Rolly, I've sent for their catalog and price list. No prices on the web site, I think that is like no prices on a menu.

It looks to me like what I want is some flavor of Buck-Boost transformer + a good surge protector. It's a place to start.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Feb 14, 2007, 2:26 PM

Post #9 of 23 (7117 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Hi Rolly, I've been doing a bit of searching to help Jonnqa with her needs but I need to know what voltage the service drop is. Do they run 220 or 110 to the houses. I've seen what appears to be 120 most places when I was visiting last year but don't know wether that is the norm.

Ron
Getting older and still not down here.

Rolly / Moderator

Feb 14, 2007, 5:23 PM

Post #10 of 23 (7107 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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220/240 is not common. In fact, it is not always available.

The standard residential voltage is 127 +/_ goodness knows what. My house is blessed with pretty stable power at about 120, but many parts of Mexico are not as well served. I hear reports of 90 to 142 in various places. I do have occasional problems with momentary drop outs and switching transients. Thus far I have lost a router, a printer and a DVD player to those goblins.

Off the subject: I was able to replace the DVD/VCR machine with a region 1 unit at exactly the same price as in the USA -- major surprise!

Rolly Pirate

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Feb 14, 2007, 6:26 PM

Post #11 of 23 (7101 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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OK. Thanks Rolly. From what I observed last year, I was fairly sure it was mostly 120, but I did need to ask.

As for the electronics, my advice would be to utilize a small uninterruptible power supply with software for a shutdown upon a loss of power. They can be found NOB for less than $100 but don't know about SOB. That should take care of 99.99% of the problems.

Most whole house power conditioners are designed for 220/240 but I may be able to trip across something that will work for 120 +-15%.

Thanks again
Ron
Getting older and still not down here.

sfmacaws

Feb 14, 2007, 7:28 PM

Post #12 of 23 (7094 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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I asked the architect that question, the power is nominally 127V. What I measured on the outskirts of the city was from 132V to 142V. Looking at these Buck-Boost transformers they say they will raise or lower the voltage between 5% and 27% which would be enough to lower even the 142V to 120V.

What I don't know is what 1 phase vs 3 phase means, although I'm sure I can find that out, or whether the amount the buck-boost can reduce the voltage is set or varies. In other words, can it take 142V down to 120V at times and then 132V to 120V at times or does it always reduce it a set amount.

Here is the buck-boost transformer page on the site Rolly posted. http://www.solaheviduty.com/...index.html#selection

Also, I'm afraid I don't understand how to figure out whether I need more than one of these for a house. I'm working on learning about that.

It does have a surge suppressor as an accessory, I'm guessing that it would go in front of the transformer? Can they really take a lightning hit?

On another note, what do you think of the safety of a large gas tank on the roof in a lightning prone area? Can you ground those puppies? Is that just wishful thinking and lightning carries so much power that a ground is useless?

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Feb 14, 2007, 8:08 PM

Post #13 of 23 (7087 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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For starters, you need only look at single phase transformers. Three phase are used in industrial settings. The ones that Rolly provided a link to would be satisfactory for your use, However, they can only be hooked up to boost (increase voltage) or buck (lower voltage).
They won't buck & boost automatically.
I believe the ones we use for RVs will do this automatically at a cost of ~$500 or so. I would think that one of those 50 amp models would cover your requirements nicely. That would be a total of 6000 watts. I doubt you have an electric stove or waterheater, so 6kw would seem to be within reason. If you don't have to worry too much about low voltage or brownouts, a buck boost transformer of about the same rating would work fine to keep the voltage low. I would in either case recommend one or two UPS for your electronics. These can be picked up when you're NOB at reasonable cost of less than $100 ea.
A seperate surge suppressor would be useful in either case. A whole house suppressor runs about $100 -$125 up here. I would put the supressor after the transformer.
Personnaly, I would have a propane tank on the ground and a ground rod driven into the ground would be nice. I understand though that the ground down there isn't a very good conductor though so it may be an exercise in futility (especially if tank on roof).
Not knowing just how the electricians are down there, it might be a good idea to have them pull a three wire circuit throughout your house, 1 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground, with the ground at the panel (fuse box) hooked to a ground rod where the electricity enters your house. It might be nice to have the neutral buss in the fuse box bonded to the ground buss as well.
Hope this helps you out. I'll assist you anyway I can. Just ask.

Ron
Getting older and still not down here.

Rolly / Moderator

Feb 14, 2007, 8:16 PM

Post #14 of 23 (7082 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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CFE (the power company) requires new installations to have the neutral grounded (one meter copper ground rod) at the meter. Many older homes do have grounds.

Rolly Pirate

sfmacaws

Feb 14, 2007, 8:40 PM

Post #15 of 23 (7076 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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There are UPS available here at around that price. What we have are Koblenz Voltage Regulators that we plug electronic stuff into. It's not a UPS but in this circumstance is probably more important. It says it will take in from 95 to 145V and puts out 120V. They cost $250 pesos each at Chedraui, I could have looked around and maybe gotten them for less. It's pretty much what I'd want for a house but on a smaller scale. We actually plugged our RV into something like these a couple years ago and it worked fine without the air conditioner on.

While the inside instructions are in 3 languages, the box is in spanish and I'm thinking that these are not needed as much in the US and Canada so perhaps not as available. It may be that what we need for the house is also more easily available down here where it is more needed.

The only option for the propane tank is on the roof vs smaller tanks inside the house. I think on the roof is better in that instance and they are commonly put there in Merida. On another forum someone mentioned that unless they are the highest thing on the roof it would be rare for them to be hit by lightning. I think I just have to let that one go and not think about it too much. I'm not used to lightning, never lived where it occurs, and it scares me.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Feb 14, 2007, 8:42 PM

Post #16 of 23 (7075 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Hey, that's great Rolly. Mexico is catching up with the rest of the world. I'd still like to see a ground wire bonded to that neutral though. That would ensure the electronic chassis would actually be grounded and grounding receptacles could be used rather than the 2 prong ungrounded type. I guess a one meter ground rod is better than none.
Getting older and still not down here.

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Feb 14, 2007, 8:56 PM

Post #17 of 23 (7070 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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In Reply To

There are UPS available here at around that price. What we have are Koblenz Voltage Regulators that we plug electronic stuff into. It's not a UPS but in this circumstance is probably more important. It says it will take in from 95 to 145V and puts out 120V. They cost $250 pesos each at Chedraui, I could have looked around and maybe gotten them for less. It's pretty much what I'd want for a house but on a smaller scale. We actually plugged our RV into something like these a couple years ago and it worked fine without the air conditioner on. They sound good. Something I'd buy on my next trip SOB. Does it say what the current or wattage rateing is?

While the inside instructions are in 3 languages, the box is in spanish and I'm thinking that these are not needed as much in the US and Canada so perhaps not as available. It may be that what we need for the house is also more easily available down here where it is more needed. As you know, our voltages up here are regulated very close to 120 through the power grid, so that type not needed.

The only option for the propane tank is on the roof vs smaller tanks inside the house. I think on the roof is better in that instance and they are commonly put there in Merida. On another forum someone mentioned that unless they are the highest thing on the roof it would be rare for them to be hit by lightning. I think I just have to let that one go and not think about it too much. I'm not used to lightning, never lived where it occurs, and it scares me. Meself, I like lightening. Guess that's why I spent my life as an electrician. I could sit and watch a good storm for hours on end. If all others are on the roof, that must be a safe place for them.

Getting older and still not down here.

bournemouth

Feb 15, 2007, 7:16 AM

Post #18 of 23 (7052 views)

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Re: [Ron Pickering W3FJW] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Ron - do you still only need a single phase transformer if your house has three phase wiring. Lots of properties, ours included, have three phase wiring. Or maybe, not being an electrician, the area has three phase wiring. We've come home more than once to part of the house having power, while the other part does not - that goes for the neighbors too - and it was a CFE problem.

marquitos

Mar 27, 2007, 10:45 PM

Post #19 of 23 (6982 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Does your meter have 4 wires out of it or just 3? You could get the same partial failure if you had a 220 single phase service. If your system is actually 3 phase you will need a 3 phase transformer
No idea is dangerous unless it's the only one you have

Ron Pickering W3FJW

Mar 27, 2007, 11:48 PM

Post #20 of 23 (6978 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Your house only has single phase. It would make absolutely no sense for a 3 phase feed as that is only used in industrial settings usually at 480 volts. If it's 3 phase for the distribution, it is possible to utilize one or two of the phases through a transformer to feed your house. However, this being Mexico, I guess most anything would be possible. It's my guess that the distribution might be 220 or 240 3 phase. If you have a 3 wire feed, one of the wires is most probably a neutral and/or ground. If thats the case you would lose half of the power if one of the legs went bad and your feed was 220 volts through an isolation transformer for a 220/110 drop to your meter and house. And this would be a 220v single phase feed with a neutral giving you two 110 volt feeds referenced to neutral. If your main breaker is a 2 pole breaker, this is most certainly what you have. Hope this makes a bit of sense..

This is a picture I took in Mazatlan, and if that's how Mexico is hooked up, I'm sure the mortality rate among electricians is quite high.

http://i73.photobucket.com/...%202006/DSCF0102.jpg
Getting older and still not down here.

(This post was edited by Ron Pickering W3FJW on Mar 27, 2007, 11:50 PM)

stina

Nov 7, 2007, 2:32 PM

Post #21 of 23 (6859 views)

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Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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At the risk of beating a dead horse...

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, we're looking for a whole-house power conditioner. I think that I found what I'm looking for but wanted to throw it out there for comment. Please shoot holes in my plan if you think it won't work.

I've been in contact with Industronic about their single phase 15 kv power conditioner http://www. industronic .com. mx /en/? secc =single_phase. It costs about $1K USD . It's built here in Mexico and can be shipped directly from the Monterrey HQ or they have have distributors in most large-i sh Mexican cities.

My plan is to install this between the main power feed from the street and the fuse box. The behavior that I'm expecting is that, whenever the incoming voltage drops below some defined threshold, it will just cut the power to the house. Likewise when the voltage surges above some defined threshold, the unit will either cut the power or trim the voltage to within an acceptable range.

For those things that would be susceptible to a sudden lose of power (computer, HD TV , etc .) I would install a small UPS at the appliance.

Any thoughts? Is my understanding of how this would work accurate?

Thanks,
Andy

Rolly / Moderator

Nov 7, 2007, 3:35 PM

Post #22 of 23 (6850 views)

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Re: [stina] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Your link is defective. This one will work http://www.industronic.com.mx/en/?secc=single_phase

I'm sure CFE will object if you insert this between the incoming feed and the fuse/breaker box. You will need to have a master breaker before this regulator.

Rolly Pirate

stina

Nov 7, 2007, 5:58 PM

Post #23 of 23 (6839 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Whole House Voltage Regulation/Surge Protection

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Rolly:

Good catch. I'll have an electrician install a master switch/breaker and then put this between the switch and the breaker box.

I'm anxious to hear from those of you who are "electrically minded". Is this just a fancy waste of money or is this likely to really protect our stuff. I have a ton of electric musical instruments/amps, a big fridge, tools, and plenty of electronic gadgetry (I'm sort of a techno geek). I'd hate to watch them fry.