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Georgia

Jan 23, 2007, 7:25 AM

Post #26 of 41 (1078 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Attaching Blame

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The need to attach blame fascinates me. My son used to have a bumper sticker on his bedroom door: "Sh**t happens." Right. It does. He was murdered by terrorists in a rather gruesome way a year after posting his sign. Rule of law, justice, blame aside: nothing changes the basic fact of his death and there is no satisfaction for me in seeing someone punished for it. I really don't care. I never understood family members of murder victims going to the executions of those held guilty for the crime. I'm not sure if this is a particularly cultural need, to attach blame and seek "justice" or not. I just don't understand it.

Certainly, in the case of a hit and run, there is no attempt or intent to take a life: a tragic error occurred. From a law and order standpoint, it is an orderly thing to punish the person who left the scene, but as Bubba points out, in Mexico no good can come for the person responsible by doing the "right thing" and staying at the scene. Indeed, the best outcome for that person is generally to flee. As far as the family's desire to catch the perpetrator is concerned: what does it change? How does it help? I still don't understand all the ranting and raving in the Canadian press about this. They don't have hit and runs in Canada? If they do, should everyone leave their country and move ... where?

My son's bumper sticker was about as accurate a statement about life as can be made.

alex .

Jan 23, 2007, 9:06 AM

Post #27 of 41 (1053 views)

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Re: [Brian] bureaucrats and bureaucracies

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The assumption is that the bureaucrats and bureaucracies are in charge. They are not, this is why appealing to them effects no change.

Its also noteworthy that kidnappings in Mexico, as mentioned in Brian's post,have a different flavor than what we have seen on television. That is, there are rarely survivors. It matters not in many cases whether the ransom is paid or not: the result is the same. I do not reccommend allowing yourself to be kidnapped.

You see, the bad guys think differently than we do. Fair has nothing to do with it. This is why I have to agree that the "average Mexican" understands his circumstances.

Hell, I'd love to create a scandal with the US State Department but I do not dare as I have family in the "region of interest" that would suffer.

Alex

wendy devlin

Jan 23, 2007, 3:56 PM

Post #28 of 41 (1001 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Attaching Blame

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Many of the points raised by previous posters, were interesting.
Even took notes:)

Items like: 1) hit and run accidents happening everywhere,
2)differences in cultural 'expectations' between many Mexicans and other nationalities, especially differences in legal consequences of fleeing the scene of an accident vs rendering aid at the scene,
3)"blame must be attached" and its role in closure for families NOB vs Mexican expression 'ni modo'
4) ' shit happens'
5)concepts of 'impunidad vs NOB need's to tidy things up and/or be in control

That's just a short list. Your set of notes may differ.

Why then the media storm in Canada?

Beyond the usual, 'if it bleeds, it leads' phenomena.

First condolences to the three families on their losses.

Secondly, perhaps people on this forum have not been following the details in the media coverage of these three 'sudden death' cases during in the past year.

The Canadian murdered couple at the all-inclusive resort in Cancun, the 'hit and run' death of the teenager in Acapulco(from the same 'town' as the first couple and also of Italian-Canadian heritage and similiar socio-economic background) and now the hit and run fatality and critical injury of another Canadian couple in a highly promoted gringo enclave.

For persons unfamiliar with Mexican culture, and having expectations of how murder inquiries, hit and run accidents etc. would be investigated where they are from, perhaps people here might be able to imagine these Canadians' post-death experiences are coming somewhat as a shock.

Personally I think a person should be emotionally prepared that 'shit happens' and nothing is for granted. Death being our constant companion. However these are strategies of philosophy and everyone has their own set. Or not.

However, in following these three cases in detail over the past year, I think these particular families were not prepared for what happened to them in Mexico.

Hence their emotional outcry that Mexico is unsafe for tourists.

And the hiring of Canada's most high profile lawyer. And the petitioning the Mexican and Canadian governments.

The situations are likely far more complicated then outlined briefly here.

However hope that these comments offer some insight into the extent of the Canadian media coverage.

(This post was edited by wendy devlin on Jan 23, 2007, 3:59 PM)

Marlene

Jan 23, 2007, 10:22 PM

Post #29 of 41 (961 views)

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Re: [ignacio] A Death on the Carretera

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Quote

I bet you have never seen a well dressed Mexican 'gentlemen' taken up and put away by police, or traffic cops after an accident.... what happens is that these gentlemen take charge of the situation, tell the cop what to do, and slip a few (or a lot) of pesos to them for their 'refresco'. This guys are never at fault, so poor people always run.

You are right about educated folk knowing what to do in this circumstance. Not necessarily that they are never found at fault (because sometimes it is pretty obvious they are) but they know how to play the "get out of jail free" card by demanding an ambulance to be taken to the hospital for treatment of even a minor injury. A cop will then be assigned to their door until things are sorted out (financially with insurance or otherwise).

It isn't just poor people that gallop away from an accident scene. Under the law there appears to be no punishment for leaving the scene of an accident so the theory to justify this is that later when cooler heads prevail things can be sorted out. Not likely, I'm sure. Bus drivers will almost always take off immediately after running over a cyclist or pedestrian. The newspaper makes mention when this happens. It's a different world we live in and unfortunately there are innocent people in jail here. Knowing this fact inspires others to run.

Bloviator

Jan 24, 2007, 5:33 AM

Post #30 of 41 (942 views)

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Re: [Marlene] A Death on the Carretera

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If bus drivers run, it would seem that there is little effort to track down hit and run drivers. I would assume that it would be quite easy to find out who the bus driver is from company records and to locate him/her.

pat

Jan 24, 2007, 6:32 AM

Post #31 of 41 (934 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Attaching Blame

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Georgia,

The rush to attach blame and to seek "closure" through assigning blame and exacting punishment has intensified in the USA in the past 40 years or so. There are no accidents anymore. And there is no tolerance for youthful indiscretion either. Everything bad has to be the "fault" of someone, and the guilty party must be apprehended and punished.

Gawd, I'm so glad I am not growing up in these times. I would be spending my formative years in Juvenile Hall.

And certainly don’t get caught spanking your kids in CA either for crying out loud in church.

Pat

Ed and Fran

Jan 24, 2007, 6:39 AM

Post #32 of 41 (931 views)

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Re: [dlyman6500] A Death on the Carretera

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..it would seem that there is little effort to track down hit and run drivers...

Yup, that's just the point. There is little or no effort expended in tracking them down.

I would assume that it would be quite easy to find out who the bus driver is from company records and to locate him/her...

Sure they know who it is. Like you say, it's easy to find out. But the person 'disappears' for a while, another town, another state, with friends or relatives, driving for another busline in another town, who knows. After a while the issue cools down, and the driver gets to return home. There seems to be no system of "APB" to track people down, nor a concept of 'outstanding warrant' that gets served once the suspect reappears.

And I think the concept of arresting and punishing drivers who are guilty of manslaughter is not so much to extract "revenge" as it is to provide some incentive for them to drive more carefully. The fact that they know full well that they can act with almost total impunity allows them to totally disregard traffic regs in pursuit of another fare.

Regards

Ed

Bubba

Jan 24, 2007, 8:19 AM

Post #33 of 41 (912 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] A Death on the Carretera

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This has been one of the most interesting threads I have seen lately and should be required reading for anyone deciding to move to Mexico or any other foreign country or, for that matter, to other places in their native land.

I can tell you this just naming some cities in which I have spent time in my life. People drive much differently in San Francisco than people in Los Angeles or people in New York City. For instance, in L.A. the pedestrian is king but jaywalking will get you a significant ticket while in San Francisco, jaywalking is commonplace and nobody ever gets ticketed except during periodic, short lived crackdowns. In L.A. ,if a pedestrian at a crosswalk even looks like he/she is going to enter that crosswalk, cars screech to a halt while in New York, they speed up and try to run the arrogant pedestrian down. In Paris the game is to see who can come closest to hitting the pedestrian without actually hitting him. Crossing the street in Bangkok is an utterly terrifying experience on any major thoroughfare without a traffic light.

When one is new to any town in any country, one is wise to observe and adapt to local customs as a rite of survival. I´ll tell you this. After six years in Ajijic and traveling over much of Mexico, I´ve learned to walk along and cross thoroughfares with great caution. I also try not to drive at night because so many pedestrians and bicyclists are so careless and often just about impossible to see and I won´t even talk about the livestock.

Just recently, I was driving through Toluca at dusk and foolishly decided to drive on to Atllacomulco, a distance of some 70 kilometers or so, in the dark because I had hotel reservations there. This autopista , which is a main thoroughfare from Mexico City to both Morelia and Queretaro, is crowded with huge trucks and fast cars and should not be entered lightly after dark as none of the drivers of any of these vehicles is going to give you any quarter. I was feeling a bit arrogant as we had just crossed Mexico City at rush hour without serious incident. Well, I graduated that night in Night Driving in Mexico 101. Ever try to find a poorly lighted hotel on a busy autopista at night crowded with huge trucks and pedestrians and bicyclists with inadequate reflectors? I eventually ended up in Atlacomulco Centro hiring a taxi to lead me to the hotel

Now, I ask the rest of you who have contributed to this thread; had I run over one of those invisible bicyclists while being tailgated by a huge rig on this poorly lit autopista, should I have stopped and administered aid on the extremely dangerous shoulder while awaiting the notoriously corrupt Sate of Mexico police to arrive and discover I was a "gringo" from Jalisco who had just run over one of their own? That is, assuming I survived on that shoulder without being run over myself long enough for the cops to get there. This is a serious question. What would you really do? Stop or run for your life all the way back to Lake Chapala or wherever you live.

I´ll tell you what I will do from now on. Not ever drive at night again if I can help it .Never.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 24, 2007, 8:23 AM)

ms mac

Jan 24, 2007, 9:05 AM

Post #34 of 41 (895 views)

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Re: [Bubba] A Death on the Carretera

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We were driving home and a few miles out of Chapala a few years ago when we came across the scene of the police covering the body of a dead child with a blanket and his bicycle was nearby. I assumed it was a hit and run as there was nobody around. But I have also been told by a Mexican friend if you are involved in an accident run away quickly. I don't know how anyone could leave a child like that, though.
ms mac

Brian

Jan 24, 2007, 9:15 AM

Post #35 of 41 (890 views)

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Re: [Bubba] A Death on the Carretera

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In Reply To

This is a serious question. What would you really do? Stop or run for your life all the way back to Lake Chapala or wherever you live.

Well, for me anyway, this is a no-brainer....."Do unto others...." Whatever legal issues I might later face would pale in comparison to the sense of guilt I would feel if I didn't stop to help. Catholic school upbringing for which I am grateful to my parents and teachers.

saludos
Brian

Bubba

Jan 24, 2007, 10:37 AM

Post #36 of 41 (858 views)

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Re: [Brian] A Death on the Carretera

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You know, Brian, I think I agree with you. I don´t know how I could run when it is instilled in my very bones that I must stop and help the person I have just run over.

Now, if the bicyclist is not dead I may have to back up over him to make sure he´s expired so I don´t have to pay for his hospitalization and rehabilitation and long term care and take care of his wife and kids by writing checks from the cockroach infested lockup and bribing the guards for an occasional six pack of beer .

This reminds me of the old concept of "situational" ethics. What do you do - stay to face your responsibility and become a victim of the corrupt and vile Mexican archipelago or run and live with the nightmare which will become more and more burdensome over time.

Just recently I had a wonderful abandoned dog I had adopted killed because I couldn´t cope with her tempermental nature since she weighed at least 150 pounds of pure muscle and razor sharp teeth and was an unpredictable neopolitan mastiff. She was extraordinarily charming when in a good mood but fiercely dangerous when challenged. We had, over two years, socialized her and she had become precious to us. I knew in my gut that there would be a day when she would mindlessly kill one of us and when she tried to kill another one of my many dogs, she had to go. No one would take her so euthanasia was the only option to keeping her dangerous self in our midst. The day I did this this was among the worst days of my life and I´ll never know if I was right or a fool.

Think about that when you feel that thump and realize you have just run over another human being. You won´t have time to consider your decision and whatever you do it will become another rock in that sack of rocks you are carrying around.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 24, 2007, 10:42 AM)

ms mac

Jan 24, 2007, 10:40 AM

Post #37 of 41 (853 views)

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Re: [Bubba] A Death on the Carretera

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The bicyclist was a little boy, Bubba, maybe 9 or 10 years old. Would you still want to back over him a few times?
ms mac

sfmacaws

Jan 24, 2007, 10:46 AM

Post #38 of 41 (849 views)

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Re: [ms mac] A Death on the Carretera

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I'm sure he was not serious about that part, MsMac, read the rest of the post.

Whatever any of us do in the split second is probably going to be how we were trained. That imprinting is strong. The same can be said of how someone would react whose imprinting came from Mexico. There are lots of news reports of Mexicans in the US who run from accidents, and lots of wailing about their lack of ethics. Just another culture crash.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Bubba

Jan 24, 2007, 10:55 AM

Post #39 of 41 (844 views)

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Re: [ms mac] A Death on the Carretera

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Ms Mac:

My bicyclist was hypothetical so I don´t know what you mean by telling me the non-existent bicyclist was a boy.

My hypothetical victim need only be human and that human´s characteristics or age is irrelevant to the moral question. Is the life of the 85 year old woman who was run over on my street less valuable than that of a 10 year old boy? Was the mourning of those she left behind less profound?

The issue really does not concern the victim but the person responsible for the victim´s injury or death. The idea of making sure the victim is dead is an old joke around here and I used it to make readers think.

I´m the kind of person who thinks that death is death. When I read of brave U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq I value their lives no more than the brave Iraqis they killed before their own demise. That doesn´t mean that I´m not rooting for the U.S. troops but death is apolitical and no respecter of age or decency.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 24, 2007, 10:59 AM)

ms mac

Jan 24, 2007, 11:01 AM

Post #40 of 41 (839 views)

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Re: [Bubba] A Death on the Carretera

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Bubba, I read enough of your posts to know you weren't serious about that. But I guess seeing that little boy being covered with a blanket stayed with me. Oh, well, on to more cheerful topics.
ms mac

ignacio

Jan 24, 2007, 12:01 PM

Post #41 of 41 (818 views)

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Re: [ms mac] A Death on the Carretera

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Bubba's question is very hard to answer, I also had very strict catholic upbringing, and I would think all the other beliefs instill in the young mind the same respect for life and their neighbor.

Perhaps one thing one could do, if the person was already dead, or not quite in mortal danger, is 'run like hell' and once you found out who the hurt person was (via news media), anonymously provide the support needed by that person and/or their family.

If the person was in mortal danger, then perhaps take him/her in your own car to the hospital and face the music, or wait at the scene of the accident for the police and medical help to arrive, with the potential of that person dyng right there while waiting for the keystone cops.

Gosh, I really would not know what to do, heck of you do or if you don't.

I have for many years followed the advice given above, 'never drive on Mexican roads, no matter size or condition, at night'.

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